wedding photography

[davecdj]

does any one know of a wedding photographer in north Lincolnshire area who would be willing offer some experience to photographer who is looking to work as second photographer

 

[MWHCVT]

There are loads of them I'm sure, if you want to get and offer of one from TP it might be beneficial and increase your chances of making a contact if you complete your details, and list what gear that you've got...

Maybe post a few examples of portraiture that you've already done?

 

[Phil V]

Are you really ready for wedding training. This is your 4th (and 5th) post in 3 years (ish), the first 2 about shooting with a P&S, then about insurance when you presumably bought a DSLR, and now you want a pro to show you the ropes.

What do you think you can gain from 2nd shooting? Have you read all the other wedding threads and how do you see this turning out? Is North Lincs where you live, or a spot far enough from home so that your local teacher isn't training the competition?

What photography experience do you have, it could be you've spent the last 2 years shooting non-stop and now you're ready for the next step, or it could be something else? Are weddings something you feel passionate about or do you just think it's easy money? Do you want to work for yourself eventually or are you looking for a position working for someone else? What gear do you have? Do you know anything about:

Selling
Post Processing
Selling
People management
Selling
Websites
SEO
Selling
Accounting
Presentation
Posing
Selling
Lighting
Photography?

Give us something to work with, so that you don't come across as clueless. The list above is what you need to know about to run a photo business (roughly in order of importance too)

 

[fraktion]

Firm but fair Phil, I have to agree.

Dave, do you have a website or any examples of your work anywhere? It's a saturated market at the moment. Everyone with an entry level DSLR thinks they're a Wedding Photographer. You've got to be a cut above the rest to even get considered for a second shooter role these days.

That being said, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Daryl]

Well done Phil. You just scared him off again. won't see him for another 2 years..............

 

[fracster]

Seems the norm on here now, some people are like a stuck record.

The guy was asking about second shooting not stepping straight into main stream wedding photography as a business FFS.

Some of you lot really are very precious about your chosen fields.

 

[MWHCVT]

Well done Phil. You just scared him off again. won't see him for another 2 years..............

I hope that he comes back a little quicker than that

 

[Phil V]

Well done Phil. You just scared him off again. won't see him for another 2 years..............

I hope mot.

I genuinely do want to help, but if a list of questions he already should have considered on a forum is scary, how's he ever going to corale 100 wedding guests who are trying to get drunk.

 

[MWHCVT]

I hope mot.

I genuinely do want to help, but if a list of questions he already should have considered on a forum is scary, how's he ever going to corale 100 wedding guests who are trying to get drunk.

Or convince a bride that if she wants 200 different group shots see needs to allow more than a 20 minute photography window

 

[Phil V]

Seems the norm on here now, some people are like a stuck record.

The guy was asking about second shooting not stepping straight into main stream wedding photography as a business FFS.

Some of you lot really are very precious about your chosen fields.

I thought I was trying to get him to give a bit more info, and to get him to think about what wedding photography means.

I'm certain if I went into the wildlife section and asked how to get into wildlife photography professionally. I'd be asked about what gear and experience I had and warned of the downside.

It's not being preciious, it's realistic. 90% of people who think they fancy a job in photography jump straight to weddings, usually because it's the only time they come into contact with photographers.

I welcome newcomers and have given lots of help to many. But that doesn't mean we should be dishonest to people starting out.

Should the OP come back with answers to my questions, he'll get more practical advice from me and others.

 

[Cagey75]

Man, I'd hate to work with some on here. Wedding photographers especially. Anyone would think it was the hardest job in the world.

 

[andya700]

Phil. I don't think that anyone is saying wedding photography is easy, but I reckon a decent photographer who takes time to investigate the work of others (our forum is a good place to start), and has the skills which you mention (they are not rocket science), could if they have the patience and the hide of a rhino, make a go of it.
There is a market for all kinds - one size does not fit all, and there are many brides/grooms who want cheap and cheerful (sub £200), rather than spending £1K or more. The reasons for that, are that we are in a recession, money is tight, and digital photography is perceived as being "easy" (us knowing that it is not "easy" does not alter that fact), so much so, that the "Uncle Bob" effect comes into play.
People have to start somewhere, and rather than start of as the main tog, the OP wants to learn from the main man.
Fair play to him.

 

[iamtheoneneo]

To the OP have you considered doing a few studio shoots to build confidence? Im sure there must be a local studio near you that offers inexpensive sessions and you can learn the ropes a bit more in getting that picture/light down.

I dunno im not a pro but iv been in the studio shooting for just over a year now, and only now do I feel im ready to even look realistically at doing weddings.

another thing is the gear, you would really need some decent lenses to get by at most weddings (only appreciated this when I went to a wedding recently and the venue was so dark!) and a flash or two, then theres the spare body - all this stuff iv got over 2 years.

basically what I am saying is don't jump in at the deep end unprepared.

 

[SimonH]

Errrr.. I don't see anything at all wrong with Phil's post. In fact, I'd want good answers to all of those questions before I put anyone in contact with a wedding photographer friend of mine, with a glowing endorsement from me.

The OP wants someone to let them in on a few weddings as a second shooter. It's an entirely different beast from asking where's a good place to take star trail photos. A wedding - ANY wedding - is a serious undertaking, even a £200 budget shoot. I don't think we should assume that a wedding photographer approaches a budget wedding with the intention of doing anything short of the best work they can do. A wedding tog doing a wedding for £200 is building his reputation and portfolio, or is doing it for family or a close friend - either way, a critical time for them. Taking on a #2 shooter who you don't absolutely KNOW will not just bottle and play no-show? I'd certainly hope not.

Nope, shooting a wedding is a one-shot, no-room-for-error commitment that absolutely cannot be taken lightly. Phil's absolutely right; it is absolutely not the time to pander to forum sensibilities if the intention is to earn Phil's endorsement/recommendation. Sure, for personal projects, of course we should (and as a forum, we* do) hold hands, pat backs, steer gently etc. But when it comes to potentially impacting a couple's special day? Not a chance.

*Yeah, I said "we", even with my low post-count

 

[davecdj]

Thanks Guys
yea i have a website www.dpc-photography.co.uk and a facebook page dpc-photograpy scunthorpe.
i have canon 5d mkii as main camera and canon 500d as a spare, lens canon 24-105mm f4 and a few others. i have taken photos for friends weddings and done some portrait work and am looking for experience in wedding photography.
i love working with people. i know wedding photography is hard work and stressful but the results are very rewarding.

 

[SimonH]

Thanks Guys
yea i have a website www.dpc-photography.co.uk and a facebook page dpc-photograpy scunthorpe.
i have canon 5d mkii as main camera and canon 500d as a spare, lens canon 24-105mm f4 and a few others. i have taken photos for friends weddings and done some portrait work and am looking for experience in wedding photography.
i love working with people. i know wedding photography is hard work and stressful but the results are very rewarding.

Now we're rolling! Lots of really nice shots on your site!

 

[Phil V]

Now we're rolling! Lots of really nice shots on your site!

They're you go!
Better than some that advertise, hang around and read a lot more, I'm near enough for a chat. BUT I definitely don't take 'passengers' when it comes to 2nd shooting, sorry. There are several schools of thought on this, but I'm in the 'If I'm hiring a 2nd shooter it's because I need to be able to guarantee results from them' camp. Some photographers are willing to take someone along for experience. As I said earlier, I'm prepared to take people along on other shoots, but weddings don't allow me time to commit to anyone other than my customers.

Have a look in the business forum and follow the links to the work of other wedding photographer members here. The standard is (IMHO) good to awesome. I'll not name names, but the awesome ones know who they are.

You didn't ask for any critique or comment, so I won't go there, you can PM me if you want a chat.

If you are looking to launch as a business, I would recommend DD's course (everything you need to know about being a wedding photographer - except the photography). If it had been available a few years ago - I'd definitely have taken it.

Back to my original point, you will have more luck looking further afield for an assisting opportunity, no-one in their right mind is going to train their competitors. I might have come across as unhelpful, but they're the kind of things you should be able to work out yourself. So if you've got relatives you sometimes stay with in other parts of the country, that's where I'd start looking.

 

[Phil V]

Phil. I don't think that anyone is saying wedding photography is easy, but I reckon a decent photographer who takes time to investigate the work of others (our forum is a good place to start), and has the skills which you mention (they are not rocket science), could if they have the patience and the hide of a rhino, make a go of it.
There is a market for all kinds - one size does not fit all, and there are many brides/grooms who want cheap and cheerful (sub £200), rather than spending £1K or more. The reasons for that, are that we are in a recession, money is tight, and digital photography is perceived as being "easy" (us knowing that it is not "easy" does not alter that fact), so much so, that the "Uncle Bob" effect comes into play.
People have to start somewhere, and rather than start of as the main tog, the OP wants to learn from the main man.
Fair play to him.

Andy
I missed this earlier, where did I say that learning was a bad thing? I'm all for differing standards and competition, I never suggested it was difficult even.

I made 2 points
1. You'll have more luck finding a 'mentor' further from home

2. Are you really sure you want to do this, there's a lot more to it than pointing a camera?

Fair play to the OP, he came back with some answers, and if he continues to learn and has a thick skin, he could make it

removed comments, read a lot harsher than intended.

 

[davecdj]

Now we're rolling! Lots of really nice shots on your site!

thanks

 

[davecdj]

the weddings i have done so far have been hard work and tiring - but enjoyable and the b&g have loved the end product.
herding people together is fairly easy if the get the best man and ushers on board.

 

[DG Phototraining]

I'd have to agree with Phil on there being little chance of you getting experience close to your intended market as no-one likes to teach someone to be a competitor for free

Especially as you are already advertising yourself as "delivering high quality wedding photography" - if you believe that's true, then I'm not sure what you are looking to learn from being a 2nd shooter ???

If you want to improve in business do a course on that, just as doing courses on photography will help you more than tagging along with someone else and hoping to pick up tips

You really need to figure out what you're trying to achieve and where you're trying to take the business, then find people to help with whatever aspects you've discovered you need help with - I doubt 2nd shooting will help with that

Dave

 

[Phil V]

I'd have to agree with Phil on there being little chance of you getting experience close to your intended market as no-one likes to teach someone to be a competitor for free

Especially as you are already advertising yourself as "delivering high quality wedding photography" - if you believe that's true, then I'm not sure what you are looking to learn from being a 2nd shooter ???

If you want to improve in business do a course on that, just as doing courses on photography will help you more than tagging along with someone else and hoping to pick up tips

You really need to figure out what you're trying to achieve and where you're trying to take the business, then find people to help with whatever aspects you've discovered you need help with - I doubt 2nd shooting will help with that

Dave

I already recommended your course Dave!

I also offered time for a chat, but I think the OPs a lite circumspect. Or I'm not up to the standard he wants to learn from.

 

[DG Phototraining]

I already recommended your course Dave!

I also offered time for a chat, but I think the OPs a lite circumspect. Or I'm not up to the standard he wants to learn from.

It was generic advice - if it helps - I can ban him from my course :razz:

But he needs to figure out what he needs and source that aspect, or aspects, shooting for just anyone won't help

Dave

 

[Phil V]

It was generic advice - if it helps - I can ban him from my course :razz:

But he needs to figure out what he needs and source that aspect, or aspects, shooting for just anyone won't help

Dave

You can lead a horse to water Dave:shrug:

 

[markyboy1]

Man, I'd hate to work with some on here. Wedding photographers especially. Anyone would think it was the hardest job in the world.

Thats a bit harsh and rude really, you forgot to factor in that if the photographer ******s up they will have totally ruin the memory of the married couples day

 

[gadgeteer]

Man, I'd hate to work with some on here. Wedding photographers especially. Anyone would think it was the hardest job in the world.

It's nowhere near the hardest job in the world at all. I don't even find it particularly stressful. In fact I find it enjoyable.

But it's understandable that the regular posters patience wears a bit thin when almost on a daily basis people come and ask how they become a wedding photographer? Or can someone let them second shoot (and in effect train them for free).

Can you imagine someone going onto an IT forum and saying "Hi all...I've just bought a new Intel i7 computer with 12GB of RAM. Can someone who knows C++ let me shadow them for a few days because I've heard programmers earn £60k a year and I'd like a piece of that.......

As for OP, his photos look ok. Certainly I've seen FAR worse. Personally I'd lose the selective colouring. It is overused. It can look great for the occasional shot but it seems to be virtually every other shot. But that's personal taste and I appreciate everyone has their own 'style'.

 

[Cagey75]

Thats a bit harsh and rude really, you forgot to factor in that if the photographer ******s up they will have totally ruin the memory of the married couples day

I don't really mind what your opinion of my opinion is. It is just that, my opinion, it isn't going to change because someone online I don't know, and certainly doesn't know me, thinks it's rude.

I've come across it not only on forums, but in the real world - the attitude of some wedding photographers, is rude - and snobbish and they can act like their job is the most important job in the world. Yes, we know how important it is to the couple, I've shot a couple of them myself. But I never made a huge deal out of it.

Not all of them are so bad, I know some really sound wedding photographers who would gladly give advice and tips freely if asked. But then others come flying in to forums to defend their precious area of work very quickly when someone says anything against it. You don't see sports, other event, or wildlife photographers making their job out to be so utterly demanding that only certain folk could muster it. And sometimes their work is equally important to their clients.


Nobody commented on what I posted about a wedding photographer who gave thumbnail sized only images on disc to a couple - after they paid €2500+for a full package. They have since requested the full res images, to which that photographer has replied that he wants an extra €300 before he will hand them over! That is a disgrace, and it's not the first time I've heard of similar extortion in this field.

 

[Phil V]

I don't really mind what your opinion of my opinion is. It is just that, my opinion, it isn't going to change because someone online I don't know, and certainly doesn't know me, thinks it's rude.

I've come across it not only on forums, but in the real world - the attitude of some wedding photographers, is rude - and snobbish and they can act like their job is the most important job in the world. Yes, we know how important it is to the couple, I've shot a couple of them myself. But I never made a huge deal out of it.

Not all of them are so bad, I know some really sound wedding photographers who would gladly give advice and tips freely if asked. But then others come flying in to forums to defend their precious area of work very quickly when someone says anything against it. You don't see sports, other event, or wildlife photographers making their job out to be so utterly demanding that only certain folk could muster it. And sometimes their work is equally important to their clients.


Nobody commented on what I posted about a wedding photographer who gave thumbnail sized only images on disc to a couple - after they paid €2500+for a full package. They have since requested the full res images, to which that photographer has replied that he wants an extra €300 before he will hand them over! That is a disgrace, and it's not the first time I've heard of similar extortion in this field.

Well given that I've been the most vocal wedding photographer on this thread, I suppose it's me who's 'defending my precious area' q

I think you should get a nice cuppa and re-read all I've actually said here.
Defending? No
Honest? Yes
Helpful? I've offered?
Encouragement? I've offered?

Now go and look at sports and wildlife threads, how many people go who've barely picked up a camera announce to the pro's that they'd like to become a professional sports/ wildlife photographer? It rarely happens, I never go to wildlife sections, but in the last twelve months I can tell you that one relatively inexperienced Motorsport photographer did just this and was given a very firm 'it's a lot more difficult to make money than you think, and you really need to work on your photography'

It might appear that it's just wedding photographers with this 'unhelpful attitude:shrug:' but that's simply because there's 2 or 3 threads a month like the one above? And locally we all know there's a new batch of 'wedding photographers' every year who think its easy money till they start to do it properly and then disappear again.

How many potential new professional wildlife photographers a year on the forum? Sports?

It's not the defence that's over the top, it's the constant barrage of wannabe's you have to read through it happens in no other area of photography with anything like the regularity.

And still in the face of that, despite the fact the OP is close enough to be considered 'potential competition' I've offered a chat and possibly ongoing support, he ignored me completely. I'm guessing he'll go away and do his own thing, then pack in when he realises its not easy money. And the next time there's a 'new wedding photographer' thread, we'll be honest again and you'll still see us as the bad guys

 

[Phil V]

Oh and thumbnails for €2500.

I'm not defending the photographer, but what did the contract say?

Was the shoot and proofs €2500, they signed up for that not understanding what it meant, or believing they could get one over on the photographer by creating something from the proofs, only to find they couldn't.

Whilst its expensive, it's a valid business model and a misunderstanding about what's been requested (at a guess-but I haven't seen the contract and neither have you)

 

[Cagey75]

Well done continuing the usual attitude. How about you grab that cuppa, read and digest for a change?

You're telling me this couple were trying one on, by paying €2500 and expecting full res images?? They're a normal everyday couple on a budget. They paid for a full package because they didn't want to cut corners on the photos. Most photographers would appreciate this, and already charging high end only to expect more for full res without stating so in the beginning should be deemed as criminal. I think this photographer has ruined his rep because of greed. Nobody i know will ever hire him again. You're first reaction is to offer reasoning for some photographer you will never know, just because he does the same job as you do? Don't you think people like him actually ruin the rep of wedding photographer's in general? Also, AFAIK, there was no contract, not one with that kind of detail at least. It was simply the more usual phone call, "are you available for this date? and how much for a full package?" - they were quoted a price, and told he was available and all would be splendid, of course - not to worry etc ... He should have told them what to expect!


It was your manner to the op that sparked my comment, yes. He didn't ask you personally, he asked in general. If he was forward about it, maybe chancing his arm, what of it? it's just a forum, not an open job interview. You can at times, come across as a little obnoxious. You seem to think everything ever mentioned about wedding photography automatically relates to you personally. Of course i could be just as wrong about you as some are about me. That's net life.

 

[Phil V]

Well done continuing your usual attitude. How about you read and digest for a change?

You're telling me this couple were trying one on, by paying €2500 and expecting full res images?? They're a normal everyday couple on a budget. They paid for a full package because they didn't want to cut corners on the photos. Most photographers would appreciate this, and already charging high end only to expect more for full res without stating so in the beginning should be deemed as criminal. I think this photographer has ruined his rep because of greed. Nobody i know will ever hire him again.

I think you're mixing rude with straight talking. I don't think 2500 euros is a reasonable price for a set of proofs, it's more than I'd charge for a full service.

However I know some great photographers that charge close to that for a set of proofs (I'm fairly certain their customers understand what they're paying for though).

However, you or I have not seen the contract (unless you have?), without seeing that contract we can't say that anyone was ripped off! If the photographer never fulfilled his contract the B&G are free to sue him, and I'd recommend that they do, however if they misunderstood what was ordered, that's a whole other issue. But lets not pretend that no customers ever ordered a set of proofs with the intention of making more from them, there's a new thread here monthly regarding that I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm offereing suggestions (based on real world experience) of what might have happened.

You see this as an emotive issue because they came to you for help, I see it as a business issue, without any personal involvement I can see all the sides. And having seen similar before, I see a breakdown in understanding rather than a rip off. You could ask the couple for a look at the contract and report back the findings. The fact that it's ruined this guy's reputation leads me to believe he didn't know what he was doing and trying it on (*there's something for you to think about)

Thats not rude, that's a whole lot of 'factual'!

It was your rude manner to the op that sparked my comment, yes. He didn't ask you personally, he asked in general. If he was forward about it, maybe chancing his arm, what of it? it's just a forum, not an open job interview. You come across as the very type of wedding photographer i wouldn't recommend to anyone. Let alone hire personally. You seem to think everything ever mentioned about wedding photography automatically relates to you personally. Of course i could be just as wrong about you as some are about me. That's net life.

A complete misunderstanding - please re-read my posts, I offered the OP support - That's completely different from suggesting that his original post was in some way aimed at me See post 17.

I might come across as direct here, but it's because I'm passionate about this business and the standard of service that people deserve, to my customers this comes out as a completely positive thing for them . (copies of testimonials available if you want by PM - you'll see the other side of my caring for standards).

I make no apologies for caring about standards in the industry, and I find it odd that anyone would see that as negative. I'm not protecting my job or interests or the interests of other photographers, the important consideration is that photographers aren't coming into this half hearted and leaving unhappy customers like your friends.

If that means that I'm sometimes a bit brusque to people who *half heartedly want to crash this industry - I don't care one jot:shrug: .

The only difference between you and I is that having seen what happens when things go wrong, you see it as a problem with 'wedding photographers'. But the whole point of my postings is to try to keep things like that from happening, yet you see me as part of the problem, not part of the solution:shrug:

I doubt that I can change your opinion, but I do hope that a neutral observer will understand better the presumed 'negativity' we get accused of.

 

[Cagey75]

You use way too many smilies, I can't stay mad at you!!

Here, I'm willing to agree to disagree, you are working in this field, you do know more than I about it. I've just seen so many people get ripped off. And don't you worry, I have looked further into this crowd [turns out they are a group , not just one guy] and I cannot believe they have stature locally in my old home town. I've been sent some of the low res files tonight ... and ,honestly, if I could,I'd post them up here, they are terrible, regardless of file size[which btw weighs in at about 190kb per image ... ]

 

[Phil V]

You use way too many smilies, I can't stay mad at you!!

Here, I'm willing to agree to disagree, you are working in this field, you do know more than I about it. I've just seen so many people get ripped off. And don't you worry, I have looked further into this crowd [turns out they are a group , not just one guy] and I cannot believe they have stature locally in my old home town. I've been sent some of the low res files tonight ... and ,honestly, if I could,I'd post them up here, they are terrible, regardless of file size[which btw weighs in at about 190kb per image ... ]

Honestly, we're on the same page, but you're mad at 'wedding photographers' whereas I love them.
But the cowboys you describe, aren't 'wedding photographers' and I hate them cowboys too.