Wedding assistant required

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asphotographymk said:
Looking at it that way i would say you have payed for the wedding photography for them ;) it just happens that you did it yourself ha.
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:lol::lol::lol:
Again, thats a very fair point
 
asphotographymk said:
He would have you mounted in no time.
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Nah he's not my type - i'll stick to the 22 year old girls , you stick to your 'special' freind tony , each to their own :lol:
 
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asphotographymk said:
I think everyone can see this is a very different situation then surely. This is not something that would have otherwise been taken on by a charging professional. Or maybe i am wrong.. i dont know much about fishing tuition or the business of it.
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http://www.carptuition.co.uk/fishing_tuition_lessons.html

just one example, the tutor here also gives his time free for the juniors once a year. i'm not saying everyone should give time for free, but some do.
 
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asphotographymk said:
I had a close friend who just completed his plumbing course. While at college they did not get any work experience out in the field they did all there practical work in the college. After the course he has been taken on as a apprentice which is a payed roll and earning at least min wage. I do think as hands on training is being given less than min wage would be fine again but its still payed
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Different places do it different ways - my brother inlaw was training to be a gas fitter (until the training agent did a bunk with the money, and spunked the lot on gear, horses and pros - leaving the trainees seriously in debt with no training.... theres someone who needs his arm bending the wrong way - but i digress ) and that course included 12 weeks working free on a placement , then once they'd got their qualification they'd have been paid 2.56 p/h for the next year of apprenticeship then min wage after that.

Anhother forum i spend a lot of time on is woodwork related - and again its common for joinery business to take people on without pay to learn the ropes

Point being that its not that uncommon and so long as the volunteer is getting something back it isnt exploitation - course if they are just carrying bags and not getting anything out of it thenit is, but thats not what the OP was offering here
 
So they are asking for someone to work for free. So an assistant is less worthy of payment than a photographer? I know there are some professional assistants on TP who would disagree with you there. Ok so an assistant or a nag carrier is less work and therefor less pay than a photographer but why are they not worthy of pay.
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kevshore said:
Do assistants declare their earnings to HMRC? Do professionals actually show them on their books or just pay them cash.
Just wondering if it's actually worth getting paid for it...

Kev.
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I'm a professional assistant. Not full time right now, but I will be in about 12 month's time. I bit my tongue and ignored this thread.

Yes, I most certainly do declare my earnings to HMRC, to not do so would be illegal. I also pay for training, access to equipment to familiarise myself with it, my assisting kit, personal protective equipment, business cards and promotion, and public liability insurance.

I have learnt basically every piece of professional lighting and camera equipment used today, from light meters to phase one digital backs, speedlights up to arri HMIs, safe rigging techniques and best practice for a huge range of related things, to enable me to make life as easy as possible for the photographer, and let them concentrate on taking amazing photos. My creative input varies from photographer to photographer, from bag lugger up to some shots before where I have lit and metered a shot, set a photographer's camera when he arrived with it and said 'you're good to go'.

End of the day, that's what you get when you can pay someone.

In this case, it's questionable whether you're breaking the law (there's a lot of precise details that I can't be bothered to go into, plus I'm not a lawyer or court) but it is possible. Either way, to not be able to offer -anything- is a bit exploitative and immoral imo, regardless of 'how much you learn'.

edit: One thing that is certain, if you have ANYONE under your "custody or control" (see the AOP's recommendations in "Beyond the Lens") then for the purposes of employer insurance, you are classed as employing someone, whether they are paid or not, and therefore you are required both by common sense and by law (employer's liability (compulsory insurance) act 1969) to hold employer's liability insurance. You can be fined to the tune of £2500 a day.



All that said... I don't really do weddings, and OP wasn't after a professional assistant, so call off the dogs.

OP, I'm sure that it's a great opportunity for someone, and I hope that you can find it in your business to pay someone who you need to be present for your business to function for their time.
 
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itsdavedotnet said:
I'm a professional assistant. Not full time right now, but I will be in about 12 month's time. I bit my tongue and ignored this thread.

Yes, I most certainly do declare my earnings to HMRC, to not do so would be illegal. I also pay for training, access to equipment to familiarise myself with it, my assisting kit, personal protective equipment, business cards and promotion, and public liability insurance.

I have learnt basically every piece of professional lighting and camera equipment used today, from light meters to phase one digital backs, speedlights up to arri HMIs, safe rigging techniques and best practice for a huge range of related things, to enable me to make life as easy as possible for the photographer, and let them concentrate on taking amazing photos. My creative input varies from photographer to photographer, from bag lugger up to some shots before where I have lit and metered a shot, set a photographer's camera when he arrived with it and said 'you're good to go'.

End of the day, that's what you get when you can pay someone.

In this case, it's questionable whether you're breaking the law (there's a lot of precise details that I can't be bothered to go into, plus I'm not a lawyer or court) but it is possible. Either way, to not be able to offer -anything- is a bit exploitative and immoral imo, regardless of 'how much you learn'.

edit: One thing that is certain, if you have ANYONE under your "custody or control" (see the AOP's recommendations in "Beyond the Lens") then for the purposes of employer insurance, you are classed as employing someone, whether they are paid or not, and therefore you are required both by common sense and by law (employer's liability (compulsory insurance) act 1969) to hold employer's liability insurance. You can be fined to the tune of £2500 a day.



All that said... I don't really do weddings, and OP wasn't after a professional assistant, so call off the dogs.

OP, I'm sure that it's a great opportunity for someone, and I hope that you can find it in your business to pay someone who you need to be present for your business to function for their time.
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Just the person i had in mind when i made that comment. I know its a little different what you offer in comparison to a bad carrier but i feel this justifies my remark that paying someone will result in a higher caliber of applicant. I can imagine you have more equipment knowledge than many of the photographers you work for and are a great asset to anyone who hires you. I would say you are more than the op would need but i still think anyone providing any level of assisting (i was a full time assignment for over a year 10 years ago and i can tell you it is hard work) deserves payment.
 
Jellycat said:
It is a non paid position and you must be local to Chesterfield, Derbyshire. You will accompany me to the weddings and be responsible for carrying my gear but you will also have the opportunity to photograph too. This is an ideal position for someone looking to get into wedding photography and wanting to learn the ropes.
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This is a great opportunity for someone.

For many of the respondents to say the assistant is working 'for free' or 'unpaid' is nonsense. They're gaining first-hand insight into the true workings of photography and people-management during a wedding, presumably with a view to undertaking work of that nature themselves for profit, whilst getting valuable portfolio material at the same time - images which have economic worth when it comes to promoting their services (providing the lead photographer allows that, and I believe Jellycat and most others do).

The "payment" bit is the form of an experience they would otherwise pay dearly for if they were to attempt to hire personnel, locations, outfits etc to set up those shots themselves or pay fees for a course where that will be done for them (and those shots will have far less value to their portfolio because they will be fake).

The assistant is getting a huge amount in return, and is gaining that experience on the lead photographer's (often considerable) overhead (and requisite insurances) and acquisition expense. I know that if I wanted to break into weddings and I saw an offer like Jellycat's I would bite her hand off for it. The majority of such professionals also invest further time in the assistant in answering questions and offering valuable business insights, and often image reviews and post-event debrief. I know what I have paid for that in the past.

This is not the same as some kind of paid internship or apprenticeship where the trainee will eventually be contributing to that business and helping it to grow and continue. No, where photography is concerned this terribly put-upon "free" assistant will take away what they have learned with the intention of setting up on their own, often in the same region as the pro who has helped to fast track them. Yet professional photographers are still not viewed as generous enough. I will say we are pretty much the only profession on earth who are prepared to freely share what we do!

If or when things reach the stage where the assistant is second shooting and contributing quality images to the lead photographer's bottom line (or bringing any other form of expertise to the table, such as lighting skills as described earlier by a very competent and trained lighting assistant) then that is the stage at which payment should be discussed. But bag carrying whilst taking onboard the many skills of the trade (and taking images destined for a commercial portfolio) is not one of them.
 
All i can say while i was an assistant,i got paid,sorry but i would not work for nothing :)

If you ask someone to train you,maybe you would have to prove yourself,before you could ask for any payment,but not otherwise
 
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Lindsay D said:
This is a great opportunity for someone.

For many of the respondents to say the assistant is working 'for free' or 'unpaid' is nonsense. They're gaining first-hand insight into the true workings of photography and people-management during a wedding, presumably with a view to undertaking work of that nature themselves for profit, whilst getting valuable portfolio material at the same time - images which have economic worth when it comes to promoting their services (providing the lead photographer allows that, and I believe Jellycat and most others do).

The "payment" bit is the form of an experience they would otherwise pay dearly for if they were to attempt to hire personnel, locations, outfits etc to set up those shots themselves or pay fees for a course where that will be done for them (and those shots will have far less value to their portfolio because they will be fake).

The assistant is getting a huge amount in return, and is gaining that experience on the lead photographer's (often considerable) overhead (and requisite insurances) and acquisition expense. I know that if I wanted to break into weddings and I saw an offer like Jellycat's I would bite her hand off for it. The majority of such professionals also invest further time in the assistant in answering questions and offering valuable business insights, and often image reviews and post-event debrief. I know what I have paid for that in the past.

This is not the same as some kind of paid internship or apprenticeship where the trainee will eventually be contributing to that business and helping it to grow and continue. No, where photography is concerned this terribly put-upon "free" assistant will take away what they have learned with the intention of setting up on their own, often in the same region as the pro who has helped to fast track them. Yet professional photographers are still not viewed as generous enough. I will say we are pretty much the only profession on earth who are prepared to freely share what we do!

If or when things reach the stage where the assistant is second shooting and contributing quality images to the lead photographer's bottom line (or bringing any other form of expertise to the table, such as lighting skills as described earlier by a very competent and trained lighting assistant) then that is the stage at which payment should be discussed. But bag carrying whilst taking onboard the many skills of the trade (and taking images destined for a commercial portfolio) is not one of them.
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Unless active on the job training is being given which i think would not be possible at a live wedding i dont see what the "assistant" is getting that uncle bob does not. Its pretty easy as a guest at a wedding to watch the photographer without having to carry there bags for them. When you pay for training you get just that.
 
Andy, there are two ways of looking at that scenario; we could of course suggest that any prospective assistant does just that and waits for a point in their life when a member of their family or friend gets married, and they try to closely observe the professional photographer as you suggest. That isn't as easy as it sounds and cannot be compared to the benefit of the scenario we are discussing in this thread.

Or an alternative suggestion may be that the assistant is paid for exactly what they do (and it would not be very much if they were carrying bags) and no training is given, no debrief, no questions answered etc etc, and no preferential access for shots for their portfolio and the purpose of advertising their business (yet the experience of observing closely will still be great for them). Should the trainee then want more from the photographer they would pay for it in the normal way (I know that the average going rate is around £60 per 30 min for one-to-one input). The problem is that these days I'd wager most assistants or trainees would still expect to get that thrown in!

I believe that if somebody is contributing to a business they should be paid. But I also believe that where a business or professional person is contributing noticeably to the training and learning of others, then it is they who should receive payment. The extent to which any assistant falls in between those two situations can only be determined on a case-by-case basis according to their duties and skill set, but I think Jellycat's offer is an extremely generous one and not one you are likely to see in other industries.
 
Lindsay D said:
...but I think Jellycat's offer is an extremely generous one and not one you are likely to see in other industries.
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I'd say that you were spot on there.

In most other industries a working assistant would expect payment!
 
DemiLion said:
I'd say that you were spot on there.

In most other industries a working assistant would expect payment!
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This is not like 'most other industries' Mark. In the situation we're discussing here the assistant IS getting payment - in fast-tracked real time learning, and images of genuine value to their business and portfolio. The extent to which they are 'working' is as I have said variable and in some cases debatable, though a second shooter or lighting assistant would and should be paid.

Ultimately we all have our views but at the end of the day it's up to any newcomer to determine for themselves whether they want to benefit in this way or not. The alternative is to pay for training which will help them along to paid second-shooter status, but working as an assistant where training is your reward is a much better, vastly cheaper, and quicker route.
 
Also as i noted there are numerous feilds in which volunteering / pro bono work/ unpaid work experience is the norm - countryside is the obvious one, but its also true of some manual trades (see my post above re gas fitting), and increasingly in feilds like law where the number of graduates vastly out numbers the available paid posts
 
I'm fairly certain that indentured apprenticeships fell out of fashion by the early 1950's, although some areas of work (in the worst case of all Parliament, and it's working practices) the principle is still abused; in most cases illegally.

As I said before, once or twice is fine - anything more than that is taking advantage, however prettily you paint it.
 
Lindsay D said:
Andy, there are two ways of looking at that scenario; we could of course suggest that any prospective assistant does just that and waits for a point in their life when a member of their family or friend gets married, and they try to closely observe the professional photographer as you suggest. That isn't as easy as it sounds and cannot be compared to the benefit of the scenario we are discussing in this thread.

Or an alternative suggestion may be that the assistant is paid for exactly what they do (and it would not be very much if they were carrying bags) and no training is given, no debrief, no questions answered etc etc, and no preferential access for shots for their portfolio and the purpose of advertising their business (yet the experience of observing closely will still be great for them). Should the trainee then want more from the photographer they would pay for it in the normal way (I know that the average going rate is around £60 per 30 min for one-to-one input). The problem is that these days I'd wager most assistants or trainees would still expect to get that thrown in!

I believe that if somebody is contributing to a business they should be paid. But I also believe that where a business or professional person is contributing noticeably to the training and learning of others, then it is they who should receive payment. The extent to which any assistant falls in between those two situations can only be determined on a case-by-case basis according to their duties and skill set, but I think Jellycat's offer is an extremely generous one and not one you are likely to see in other industries.
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There is no way any professional minded photographer is going to provide training at a live wedding, there simply is not the time to do so and it would also be very unprofessional to "use" a client in this way. Most church weddings are actually public occasions so while i am not recommending anyone does this if you really wanted to watch a photographer you could just turn up and do so and not have to carry there bags.

Even if something such as a days training (after the date) was being offered i could see a benefit for the assistant as this would be an exchange of service but no training is being given here. You are simply getting the please of carrying a bag. If someone wanted to do that they can go shopping with my missus and learn about as much.

DemiLion said:
I'm fairly certain that indentured apprenticeships fell out of fashion by the early 1950's, although some areas of work (in the worst case of all Parliament, and it's working practices) the principle is still abused; in most cases illegally.

As I said before, once or twice is fine - anything more than that is taking advantage, however prettily you paint it.
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i 100% agree here. You can dress it up all you want as a learning experiencing the reality is that as assistant is providing a services.
 
This argument does always remind me of the way that MPs squirm when its pointed out to them that the 'interns' that they almost all take on should, by law, be paid at least NMW...
 
asphotographymk said:
There is no way any professional minded photographer is going to provide training at a live wedding, there simply is not the time to do so and it would also be very unprofessional

Even if something such as a days training (after the date) was being offered i could see a benefit for the assistant as this would be an exchange of service but no training is being given here. You are simply getting the please of carrying a bag. If someone wanted to do that they can go shopping with my missus and learn about as much.
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No one is suggesting direct training on the client's time, the input is normally before the event, during a lull when the wedding party is eating, and then when the event is finished. If you look at how much a day of one-to-one training costs with an established wedding photographer then the value of that could not be compared to the value of somebody carrying your bags for a few hours (which if it were paid would probably be around £15 an hour or so?). This is entirely the point I was trying to make earlier, there must be a balance between what the assistant is contributing and what is normally a much more valuable contribution from the photographer who is bearing the cost and overhead.
 
I just love how people can be so narrow minded!!

I have had quite enough of this thread now try to make out I'm exploiting some poor person!!

What I have offered the people who have pm me go far beyond what was stated in the op and those terms are between us.

Stop thinking you know everything and assuming your right. Most photographers won't even entertain having anyone who could become their competition anywhere near them and this just shows how this industry can be!!
 
Lindsay D said:
No one is suggesting direct training on the client's time, the input is normally before the event, during a lull when the wedding party is eating, and then when the event is finished. If you look at how much a day of one-to-one training costs with an established wedding photographer then the value of that could not be compared to the value of somebody carrying your bags for a few hours (which if it were paid would probably be around £15 an hour or so?). This is entirely the point I was trying to make earlier, there must be a balance between what the assistant is contributing and what is normally a much more valuable contribution from the photographer who is bearing the cost and overhead.
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Lindsay D said:
No one is suggesting direct training on the client's time, the input is normally before the event, during a lull when the wedding party is eating, and then when the event is finished. If you look at how much a day of one-to-one training costs with an established wedding photographer then the value of that could not be compared to the value of somebody carrying your bags for a few hours (which if it were paid would probably be around £15 an hour or so?). This is entirely the point I was trying to make earlier, there must be a balance between what the assistant is contributing and what is normally a much more valuable contribution from the photographer who is bearing the cost and overhead.
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And that is my point. there simply is not the time to provide this one on one training you are talking about and unless its live training its about as usefull as reading a book and is simply theory. If you pay for training you will get just that. You will get advice as you shoot, with the model infront of you and the camera in your hand. You get 100% of the trainers attention focused on training. Which is worth the money.

I would love to know what weddings you shoot that have this amazing lull you talk about as i must be missing out. The time the wedding party is eating is the only break i would say i ever get and that time is spent not only eating myself but, uploading, backing up, Some photographers would even create honeymoon albums there is simply loads to do in this time. I cant think of many photographers that spend this time doing nothing. And even then unless you are going do get some live training in that time it is still all theory and advice you can get from books, videos or forums. Even if you spent that time giving image critique that is still nothing more than you can get from posting your images on here.
 
Jellycat said:
I just love how people can be so narrow minded!!

I have had quite enough of this thread now try to make out I'm exploiting some poor person!!

What I have offered the people who have pm me go far beyond what was stated in the op and those terms are between us.

Stop thinking you know everything and assuming your right. Most photographers won't even entertain having anyone who could become their competition anywhere near them and this just shows how this industry can be!!
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So why you so secretive about what your offering?
 
asphotographymk said:
And that is my point. there simply is not the time to provide this one on one training you are talking about and unless its live training its about as usefull as reading a book and is simply theory. If you pay for training you will get just that. You will get advice as you shoot, with the model infront of you and the camera in your hand. You get 100% of the trainers attention focused on training. Which is worth the money.

I would love to know what weddings you shoot that have this amazing lull you talk about as i must be missing out. The time the wedding party is eating is the only break i would say i ever get and that time is spent not only eating myself but, uploading, backing up, Some photographers would even create honeymoon albums there is simply loads to do in this time. I cant think of many photographers that spend this time doing nothing. And even then unless you are going do get some live training in that time it is still all theory and advice you can get from books, videos or forums. Even if you spent that time giving image critique that is still nothing more than you can get from posting your images on here.
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Think i need to stop assisting for you and assist for others if they have the whole day to teach me :-P
 
Jellycat said:
Because I don't feel I should have to justify myself to people who want to slate me!!
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No one has slated you, we have only expressed our opinions on an open forum! Have i got a forum all wrong? Because i had it in my head that it was for people to discuss and express opinions amongst other things.
 
Jellycat said:
I just love how people can be so narrow minded!!

I have had quite enough of this thread now try to make out I'm exploiting some poor person!!

What I have offered the people who have pm me go far beyond what was stated in the op and those terms are between us.

Stop thinking you know everything and assuming your right. Most photographers won't even entertain having anyone who could become their competition anywhere near them and this just shows how this industry can be!!
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I dont think anyone has suggested they know everything only basing there opinion on the information presented. And unless you are offering some type of payment then personally i think you are exploiting peoples desire to gain experience in the industry by dressing free work up as some form of training. That is my opinion only and i respect that you see it otherwise.

And as for competition, that is business. If you want to train your competition that is totally fine but a fact of business is that you want an edge on your competition were possible. That is not the photography industry that is every industry. ON occasions where people have asked to come along to weddings i have let them. When i needed an assistant to perform a task i have payed them just as i expect to get payed for my services i believe it is respectful to pay those who provide a services for you or atleast offer a service in exchange.
 
Funny this comes up again and again.

I gave up weddings a year ago last Oct. I'm so busy with other work. but.... I love doing weddings. so i offered my services to pro togs at £250 a day shoot n burn.

....as i don't have time to do the meetings the post work etc.

Now with all the bitching you get about newbies and training up folk only to become the next competition to you. you'd think I'd get loads of offers here and there? Nope

An experienced tog to 2nd shoot and do it your style. Never likely to be in compition with you.

no one took me up.

yet all you see here is moaning about newbies wanting experience and togs worried about them taking work away in the future. Yet!!!! when someone offers a way through with no hassle, not a dicky bird.

you want the job done then pay for it. Other wise stop moaning about taking on newbies who want to get in the biz......

This business could be so easy if photographers were not so anal about the way they work or getting everything for nothing.

We should all help out each other and never burn bridges as you never know when you may need a helping hand. (But at the same time pay for it)

I'll go read the thread from the beginning now and find I've written something that makes no sense.....:lol:
 
duttytd said:
Think i need to stop assisting for you and assist for others if they have the whole day to teach me :-P
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I think i need to stop paying you. I tell you what how about while we eat i give you a few tips and we call that training.. Deal?
 
duttytd said:
So why you so secretive about what your offering?
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Because , unless you have shown any interest,via pm, then it is nothing to do with you Tony. It is between the OP and the parties willing to accept her offer.

Quite why this is turning into a tag team drama is quite baffling.
 
You expressed your opinion a bit too freely in doing so not only have you and other now taken over this thread and moved it away from the original post but have now decided to keep coming up with the same old same old and making me look like I'm taking advantage of someone.

I feel some people on here don't want to admit they they may have got their facts wrong and need to keep pressing the same point again and again!!!!!

I'm now asking the mods to close this thread!!!!

One seriously ****ed off hormonal pregnant woman!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Daryl said:
Funny this comes up again and again.

I gave up weddings a year ago last Oct. I'm so busy with other work. but.... I love doing weddings. so i offered my services to pro togs at £250 a day shoot n burn.

....as i don't have time to do the meetings the post work etc.

Now with all the bitching you get about newbies and training up folk only to become the next competition to you. you'd think I'd get loads of offers here and there? Nope

An experienced tog to 2nd shoot and do it your style. Never likely to be in compition with you.

no one took me up.

yet all you see here is moaning about newbies wanting experience and togs worried about them taking work away in the future. Yet!!!! when someone offers a way through with no hassle, not a dicky bird.

you want the job done then pay for it. Other wise stop moaning about taking on newbies who want to get in the biz......

This business could be so easy if photographers were not so anal about the way they work or getting everything for nothing.

We should all help out each other and never burn bridges as you never know when you may need a helping hand. (But at the same time pay for it)

I'll go read the thread from the beginning now and find I've written something that makes no sense.....:lol:
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Actually your post to me sums everything up pretty well and has taken aspects from both sides. I think what your talking about is mutual respect. And part of that respect is reward and payment for the hard work and duties carried out. We all moan about people expecting us to work for free and then when it comes to using an assistant service people dont want to pay for it... Hypocritical i say.
I will actually keep you in mind for shoot and burn £250 thats a blinding offer from an experienced photographer. I dont often double book weddings as its hassle but knowing someone i trust is available should the day come is very good.
 
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