Wedding assistant required

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big soft moose said:
bunging them a flat fee to cover unspecified expenses will lead both parties into trouble with HMRC and employment law
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Not really true. If you are taking them on freelance you pay an agreed fee payed on invoice. Christ some of the hours i work for an agreed fee i dont come close to Min wage myself. They are then self employed and it is not the OPs problem when it comes to tax registration.

The op is looking for an assistant because if they admit it or not they need one, if they didnt need one they would simply not waste there time. If you need an assistant to fulfill a roll which in this case is carry equipment then they should be payed. If actual training was being offered then that would hold value but i dont see that on offer and i dont see it possible. I dont mind if people want to shadow, infact i have had people shadow me several times but when it comes to me needing an assistant i always pay them.
 
What I don't get is all you lot whinging and whining and arguing the toss about getting paid or not have no intention of doing it.

Any excuse to have a moan and a dig. Some of you need to man up a bit.
 
asphotographymk said:
Not really true. If you are taking them on freelance you pay an agreed fee payed on invoice. Christ some of the hours i work for an agreed fee i dont come close to Min wage myself. They are then self employed and it is not the OPs problem when it comes to tax registration. .
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I agree if they are freelancing - my point was that if you call a £30 fee 'expenses' without accounting for them properly thats often enough to turn a volunteer/intern position in to a post with a defacto contract and trappings of employment - and thast can lead to liability for NMW

If they are self employed then yes you can pay them whatever you like - but like i said the assistant will then need to register self employed and do a tax return (even if they arent actually liable for tax) - which creates a great deal of hassle , which could be avoided by going the volunteer with expenses route
 
Newsflash..........another wedding thread has gone tits up on Tp...........Newsflash

Op outlined what they wanted, Quaker happy to do it, others get their knickers in a twist when it is nothing to do with them........:lol:
 
Constructive contribution there ade :thinking:
 
fracster said:
Newsflash..........another wedding thread has gone tits up on Tp...........Newsflash

Op outlined what they wanted, Quaker happy to do it, others get their knickers in a twist when it is nothing to do with them........:lol:
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LOL!!
 
Quaker said:
What I don't get is all you lot whinging and whining and arguing the toss about getting paid or not have no intention of doing it.

Any excuse to have a moan and a dig. Some of you need to man up a bit.
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I would say its a discussion rather than a moan. The wonderful thing about discussions is they evolve they change and people have different views.
 
Well there seems to be a lot of whinging aimed towards the OP from where I'm sat. She asked a straightforward question then, as ever on this forum, it gets taken over by so called experts telling her how wrong she is.

If folk are not interested why drag her down? I suppose folk have to get their kicks somehow, makes them feel important I guess.
 
big soft moose said:
I agree if they are freelancing - my point was that if you call a £30 fee 'expenses' without accounting for them properly thats often enough to turn a volunteer/intern position in to a post with a defacto contract and trappings of employment - and thast can lead to liability for NMW

If they are self employed then yes you can pay them whatever you like - but like i said the assistant will then need to register self employed and do a tax return (even if they arent actually liable for tax) - which creates a great deal of hassle , which could be avoided by going the volunteer with expenses route
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But the registration/ tax return is not the problem of the OP. They simply get an invoice for the agreed amount. Be that £10 ,£30,£100 what ever and they pay it. Simples. Yes it can get complicated if it is long term regular hours and if they are contracted to work certain times but for booked jobs they say yes or no to its pretty easy. I do it for almost every job i shoot that needs an assistant. I am simply hiring a freelance assistant, what they do with there returns is not my problem as what i do with mine is not the problem of my clients.
 
Quaker said:
Well there seems to be a lot of whinging aimed towards the OP from where I'm sat. She asked a straightforward question then, as ever on this forum, it gets taken over by so called experts telling her how wrong she is.

If folk are not interested why drag her down? I suppose folk have to get their kicks somehow, makes them feel important I guess.
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As i said its called a conversation. And thats what forums are for, if you dont agree with something you get to give your opinion. Its not about kicks its about opinion. My opinion is that if you want to hire an assistant then you should pay them jsut as if you want to hire a photographer they should be payed.

Who is dragging anyone down. They are simply giving opinions. And its pretty sound advice to that if you want someone to assist at a wedding you will get better responces/ caliber of individual of at least some payment is on offer.
 
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Well I have volunteered to help her out so by your reckoning that makes me a bit of a low calibre bag carrier.

That's knocked me for six, I'm gutted you hold me in such low regard.
 
Quaker said:
a low calibre bag carrier.
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Strange, but that was my interpretation of post #13. A second shooter is worthy of paying, but someone who just carries the bags isn't - but is actually more critical to this job as if a free volunteer won't do it someone else will have to.. and it's the little details in the precise wording of this thread that have created the debate.

So far this has been a reasonably friendly debate (for the most part), and I've certainly learnt something about what is and what isn't classified as a volunteer and the point at which an unpaid intern becomes due NMW.
 
asphotographymk said:
As i said its called a conversation. And thats what forums are for, if you dont agree with something you get to give your opinion. Its not about kicks its about opinion. My opinion is that if you want to hire an assistant then you should pay them jsut as if you want to hire a photographer they should be payed.

Who is dragging anyone down. They are simply giving opinions. And its pretty sound advice to that if you want someone to assist at a wedding you will get better responces/ caliber of individual of at least some payment is on offer.
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I think the OP was requesting an unpaid assistant... NOT looking to 'Hire' an assistant

A good opportunity IMO, I would of thought Quaker will learn something from this that others pay for in 'Taster' courses
 
Its about doing someone a favour, helping someone who is going to need a hand, thats all it is. Maybe one day I will need a hand myself and I am confident if I asked Lynn, she would be happy too.

If you went to the shop for an elderly or disabled neighbour would all of you expect to be paid for it? Reading this thread, I reckon most of you would.
 
I've been a member on here for quite a while now. I can't believe that this thread is causing such a discussion. A fellow photographer could do with some help. If you gain something out of helping her, then great. If not, why not just help her anyway!
Do we really now live in a world where we only do something for someone if we benefit from it??
I would happily help out. I live near Grimsby, but I'd still carry your gear for you. But then again, I recently offered a fellow member on here the use of my D300, maybe I'm just a mug???
Or maybe it's not about ME all of the time. The lady is pregnant. She is a fellow photographer. Yes she makes a living out of it. So what? I for one wouldn't be happy if something happened to that baby if she had to carry her gear. At least she is sticking to her commitments towards her clients.
To the OP, I can get over to your area, I have a mate who would probably also help, who lives nearer to you. Good luck with the pregnancy.

Kev.
 
Quaker said:
Well I have volunteered to help her out so by your reckoning that makes me a bit of a low calibre bag carrier.

That's knocked me for six, I'm gutted you hold me in such low regard.
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Yes it does. Yes i do. You clearly hold photography assistants in low regard as you feel its a job not worthy of payment.
A good assistant is an asset worth every penny you pay. While on this occasion someone of that level may not be needed it is still no different to the ever on going debate that people expect photogrpahers to work for free. I am sure the OP is getting paid for the job so why shouldn't anyone else who is working on the day. While i sympathize that helping a poor pregnant lady may feel like the "right" thing to do (that was a joke before anyone calls me patronizing we had a baby 10 months ago and my wife worked her whole pregnancy) this is business we are talking about. If the OP was doing the weddings for free i would see some point in this but business is business.

I couldn't care less if you want to do it for free, more fool you really for doing a days hard work for nothing.

My point was more that this has been a very friendly debate untill you started making comments like "man up"
 
Dark Knight said:
I think the OP was requesting an unpaid assistant... NOT looking to 'Hire' an assistant

A good opportunity IMO, I would of thought Quaker will learn something from this that others pay for in 'Taster' courses
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They are looking for someone to do a specific roll on specific dates. That sounds like your after a service to me. In which case that is something you hire. Calling it unpaid is the point of this whole discussion right?

Its a good opportunity to carry some bags and throw away some fuel money. I have not seen any offer for training. As i said in my first post i do see some benefits to shadowing a photographer but in this case i think the OP is after a specific roll (bag carrier) becasue they need it.
 
My spin was a bit different mate - I read it as yes she's looking for a bag carrier - but the "payment" for providing that was the opportunity to learn about the business and to shoot pictures that could be used in a portfolio ( I assume, from the fact that quaker seems happy with subsequent discussion on that point)

You will recall that on the last thread we established that many togs, including you, won't let assistants use pics in portfolios (and i'm not knocking that - i can see both sides) so the opportunity to do so is by definition valuable and thus a reasonable exchange for labour.

Its also an oportunity to establish a relationship with a wedding tog which if all goes well could lead to paid second shooter work in the future
 
Tbh i think its very cheeky the fact that the op is getting paid and requires someone to help her out yet has not even offered expenses paid (travel&lunch)
 
asphotographymk said:
They are looking for someone to do a specific roll on specific dates. That sounds like your after a service to me. In which case that is something you hire. Calling it unpaid is the point of this whole discussion right?

Its a good opportunity to carry some bags and throw away some fuel money. I have not seen any offer for training. As i said in my first post i do see some benefits to shadowing a photographer but in this case i think the OP is after a specific roll (bag carrier) becasue they need it.
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You don't 'Have' to hire somebody, there is nothing wrong in requesting an unpaid assistant.

It can be a very rewarding experience for somebody thinking of getting into the wedding game, even if it was for just carrying bags (which in this case it offers more opportunity) so a person wishing to volunteer shot not be told they hold assistants in low regard, and the person offering the experience should not be made to feel they a ripping somebody off by requesting such - Only my opinion of course :)
 
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duttytd said:
Tbh i think its very cheeky the fact that the op is getting paid and requires someone to help her out yet has not even offered expenses paid (travel&lunch)
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To be fair we dont know whether lyn is offering expenses or not - I'd suspect that she is (given that quaker said she wanted them on a previous post and seems happy with subsequent discussion) - only those who responded to her original request and discussed stuff by pm know the full SP so i wouldnt jump to conclusions.

Also you've been along to weddings for the experience havent you ? - were you paid for your time ?
 
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You fail to comprehend the fact that people do favours for others without demanding payment.
You also fail to acknowledge that the op stated PM for details. You assumed what those details were then went on judging folk based on your assumptions.
I'm a friendly bloke who is happy to help someone out in need without demanding payment. If you are not at ease with my mindset then that's entirely up to you but please don't try to make me our to be some kind of ogre.
 
Quaker said:
Its about doing someone a favour, helping someone who is going to need a hand, thats all it is. Maybe one day I will need a hand myself and I am confident if I asked Lynn, she would be happy too.

If you went to the shop for an elderly or disabled neighbour would all of you expect to be paid for it? Reading this thread, I reckon most of you would.
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Go for it!!

There are loads of times I'd work for nowt in order to learn. If you not earning you're learning is how I look at it. Value or worth doesn't have to measured in ££££££'s by the way :thumbs:
 
Quaker said:
You fail to comprehend the fact that people do favours for others without demanding payment.
You also fail to acknowledge that the op stated PM for details. You assumed what those details were then went on judging folk based on your assumptions.
I'm a friendly bloke who is happy to help someone out in need without demanding payment. If you are not at ease with my mindset then that's entirely up to you but please don't try to make me our to be some kind of ogre.
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I hope that wasnt addressed to me - as i've basically been defending lyns position from the start of this thread

but I would note that perhaps both sides could calm down a bit before we get mod presence and :lock: (less :bat: and more :hug2: )
 
big soft moose said:
To be fair we dont know whether lyn is offering expenses or not - I'd suspect that she is (given that quaker said she wanted them on a previous post and seems happy with subsequent discussion) - only those who responded to her original request and discussed stuff by pm know the full SP so i wouldnt jump to conclusions.

Also you've been along to weddings for the experience havent you ? - were you paid for your time ?
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Yes I went along with Andy (as photography) for experience but as I helped out with a few things Andy was kind and fair and paid me.

In all honesty there ain't much someone can teach you when they are shooting a wedding as anyone who has shot a wedding knows they can get pretty manic. The main togger can't baby sit someone and give them their attention.
 
Quaker said:
You fail to comprehend the fact that people do favours for others without demanding payment.
You also fail to acknowledge that the op stated PM for details. You assumed what those details were then went on judging folk based on your assumptions.
I'm a friendly bloke who is happy to help someone out in need without demanding payment. If you are not at ease with my mindset then that's entirely up to you but please don't try to make me our to be some kind of ogre.
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I think doing someone a favor is great in day to day life but this is business and there are no favors in business. I wonder if the OP is shooting the weddings as a favor?
 
duttytd said:
Yes I went along with Andy (as photography) for experience but as I helped out with a few things Andy was kind and fair and paid me.

In all honesty there ain't much someone can teach you when they are shooting a wedding as anyone who has shot a wedding knows they can get pretty manic. The main togger can't baby sit someone and give them their attention.
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And you got my company... Some people pay simply for that pleasure.
 
I've done five weddings as an assistant and only got paid for one. I was happy for the experience - although they did show me I never want to do another wedding ever. Unless it's running around, it's not for me :D

I think everyone should give Lyn a break and unless you're interested then step out of the thread please. I'd hate to have to close my first thread of the new year already
 
asphotographymk said:
I think doing someone a favor is great in day to day life but this is business and there are no favors in business. I wonder if the OP is shooting the weddings as a favor?
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You are judging people based on your own assumptions, without knowing the facts. If you had taken the time to PM the OP for more details, as she originally requested you would more than likely be better informed of the conditions of the task. The OP doesn't have to justify herself to you or anyone else. She offered details by PM.
 
asphotographymk said:
Yup i payed him.
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Fair play, and respect that you walk it like you talk it , - I wont ask how much (or if he was worth it :lol: )

I would make one more general observation - not aimed at you or tony in particular

a volunteer or intern who is working free is usually covered by the 'employees' liability insurance of the placement owner - however a contractor is usually expected to have their own liability insurance - so if Tog X takes wannabe assistant Y along to a wedding as a subcontractor where do they stand on insurance ? So if the assistant causes an accident and guest later sues the togs insurer may well deny liability, and pass it on to the assistant who might well be uninsured.

This is equally an issue for someone who takes a volunteer/intern on without checking that they have ELI in addition to PLI - except that in the latter case both may wind up collectively liable and without cover
 
big soft moose said:
To be fair we dont know whether lyn is offering expenses or not - I'd suspect that she is (given that quaker said she wanted them on a previous post and seems happy with subsequent discussion) - only those who responded to her original request and discussed stuff by pm know the full SP so i wouldnt jump to conclusions.

Also you've been along to weddings for the experience havent you ? - were you paid for your time ?
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Thanks pete.

I said I wasn't going to comment on this thread again but as some people are beginning to question my "morels" I am beginning to get a seriously ****ed off pregnant lady!!!

Those that have pm me have all the details in full and for those that haven't sent a pm you won't know the full details so please stop speculating about said morels.

The reason for my op being as it was was to get genuine people, who are wanting this experience as they have a genuine interest in wedding photography and not someone just after making a bit of extra money!!!
 
Quaker said:
You are judging people based on your own assumptions, without knowing the facts. If you had taken the time to PM the OP for more details, as she originally requested you would more than likely be better informed of the conditions of the task. The OP doesn't have to justify herself to you or anyone else. She offered details by PM.
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Ok share these oh so exclusive details and prove us all wrong
 
big soft moose said:
Fair play, and respect that you walk it like you talk it , - I wont ask how much (or if he was worth it :lol: )

I would make one more general observation - not aimed at you or tony in particular

a volunteer or intern who is working free is usually covered by the 'employees' liability insurance of the placement owner - however a contractor is usually expected to have their own liability insurance - so if Tog X takes wannabe assistant Y along to a wedding as a subcontractor where do they stand on insurance ? So if the assistant causes an accident and guest later sues the togs insurer may well deny liability, and pass it on to the assistant who might well be uninsured.

This is equally an issue for someone who takes a volunteer/intern on without checking that they have ELI in addition to PLI - except that in the latter case both may wind up collectively liable and without cover
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Im covered up to 5million ;-)
 
Right last warning, step out or it will be closed
 
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