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Interfere? Express an opinion on someones post, which is allowed in this forum provided that it is polite.
C'mon stop it, it's the New Year and this is a friendly place.
Wedding assistant required
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Interfere? Express an opinion on someones post, which is allowed in this forum provided that it is polite.
C'mon stop it, it's the New Year and this is a friendly place.
DemiLion
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Let's put this in to perspective guys...
Almost everyone trying to break in to their chosen area of photography has done pro bono work, or worked for knowledge in lieu of payment.
If this is just the odd occasion or two, then it's fine and fairly standard, but this changes if it turns out to be a long series of engagements where the photographer is effectively getting an assistant for zip.
A couple of commercial photographers that I know work on the basis that the first couple of engagements will be unpaid, as an assessment/learning session, and subsequent jobs will be paid at roughly £70-100pd depending upon experience and/or skill level required.
It might help if Lyn mentioned how many weddings the assistant was needed for.
Almost everyone trying to break in to their chosen area of photography has done pro bono work, or worked for knowledge in lieu of payment.
If this is just the odd occasion or two, then it's fine and fairly standard, but this changes if it turns out to be a long series of engagements where the photographer is effectively getting an assistant for zip.
A couple of commercial photographers that I know work on the basis that the first couple of engagements will be unpaid, as an assessment/learning session, and subsequent jobs will be paid at roughly £70-100pd depending upon experience and/or skill level required.
It might help if Lyn mentioned how many weddings the assistant was needed for.
cornishboy
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Perhaps Lyn should ask for a volunteer.. that way all of us who volunteer to photograph events on a regular basis and do so simply to help out, improve and learn will not feel so bad about not being paid.
This is a great opportunity that has been presented for someone, I was presented with an opportunity very similar to this at the age of 16, I have now been working with the photographer for over a year now and get paid. I have also learnt a lot from working with a full time wedding photographer gaining experience that I would never of have got if I didn't decide to do a few days work for free....
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Thats a useful checklist - but I can't see any reason to think that lyns offer falls within anything that would qualify for NMW , she isnt setting up a contract, paying cash, compelling them to attend, or making promises of future work.
Like i said further up volunteering doesnt qualify as employment or for NMW, but it does fall into the wider definition of Worker in the EU legislation which covers stuff like the need to provide employee liability cover
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Yay - all's well that ends well , and thats a reasonable ask (though note that she can't give you more than the actual cost of public transport or 45p/mile for fuel , without it being considered a payment - and payments do open the provider up to NMW issues)
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Sounds like a great opportunity for carrying bags of gear and not much else!
apart from learning about the wedding business and taking some photos
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I don't dis-agree, as I said it's a two-way thing. I think the OP may have sold it better if she mentioned just what the unpaid worker gets rather than just carrying gear and taking some photos...but is not a 2nd shooter. I'm sure just being at a wedding with a pro tog is helpful...but as DemiLion said, how long, how many etc.
Quaker
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I actually live in Chesterfield and I am very keen to learn and get the opportunity to build up a portfolio. I did my first wedding at the beginning of Dec which went really well but I am not so naive to think I've cracked it.
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Sounds ideal for you - one thing i would advise you to clarify is whether lyn will be okay with you using pictures taken at her weddings for your portfolio - she may be fine with it - ( I usually am) but some togs arent so it would be wise to clarify
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Some photographers do not let you use their pics for your portfolio. You need to establish what Lyn is offering IMHO.
Not having a go, just my opinion/thought after reading your post. Good Luck.
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Yay nigel we agree about summat 
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Quaker
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Well I posed the question, not had a reply so I will wait and see. If I can't use the photos I took for a portfolio I would want tuition.
Anyway I will offer my services and see what happens. I may not be what Lyn is looking for.
Anyway I will offer my services and see what happens. I may not be what Lyn is looking for.
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Yay nigel we agree about summat
I agree with a lot of things you post Pete
But I'm allowed to dis-agree on some too. 
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But I'm allowed to dis-agree on some too.
I disagree
(how's that for a paradox) (actually for the record I dont disagree with very much you've said on this thread - only about whether this was the place to say it
)
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This is always another thing that comes up for debate Quaker. If no portfolio pics, then what tuition do you expect at someone's Wedding Day? Apart from just watching, learning timings etc...All very handy I agree, but this goes back to the point that Lyn (sorry Lynn, I know it feels like grief), hasn't really said what you will learn except for "ideal position for someone looking to get into wedding photography and wanting to learn the ropes. ". But what does that exactly mean? There's no explanation to what that involves.
Just my perspective...that's all.
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I disagree
(actually for the record I dont disagree with very much you've said on this thread - only about whether this was the place to say it
It may not be the place, but, and I apologise to the OP, as I said before, this is a forum and people, even idiots like me, are allowed to respond with our thoughts and opinions.
These sort of discussions often result in going down hill, but, bar from a few badly choiced remarks in some posts, has, on the whole, stayed friendly...I hope!
Cheers Pete and a Happy New Year!
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That a reasonable point - and the reason that i let people assisting me use the pictures they take
but some togs feel otherwise , and it could be argued that just practicing taking shots, martialling groups, dealing with uncle bob, and the myriad of other wedding stuff is in itself a useful acquisition of skills and fair reward for bag carrying etc
The really important thing is that both parties are clear about expectations from the outset so theres no disagreement later (and that then brings us to the vexed question of writing a volunteer agreement without establishing a contract - I'd say to lyn that if she wants a hand with that feel free to pm me)
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It may not be the place, but, and I apologise to the OP, as I said before, this is a forum and people, even idiots like me, are allowed to respond with our thoughts and opinions.
These sort of discussions often result in going down hill, but, bar from a few badly choiced remarks in some posts, has, on the whole, stayed friendly...I hope!
Cheers Pete and a Happy New Year!
yep - cheers nigel happy new year to you and yours too
If Annie Leibovitz posted on here about carrying her bags on a Kirsten Dunst shoot I think those arguing against the whole idea might perhaps reconsider their position
So what's changed?
From the point of view of the person wanting to do it, nothing. If someone has a perceived value and you can see a benefit in working for nothing then why would that be worse than actually paying £500 for a weekend course in lighting?
It's a bit like people looking down their nose at TFP. If money changes hands everything is OK but if there's no money involved it has no value?
So what's changed?
From the point of view of the person wanting to do it, nothing. If someone has a perceived value and you can see a benefit in working for nothing then why would that be worse than actually paying £500 for a weekend course in lighting?
It's a bit like people looking down their nose at TFP. If money changes hands everything is OK but if there's no money involved it has no value?
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I agree with that
. But there are volenteers here, who seem they really don't know what they are going to get out of it. And the bag carrying thing did seem the most important part of the OP's post IMHO.
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If Annie Leibovitz posted on here about carrying her bags on a Kirsten Dunst shoot I think those arguing against the whole idea might perhaps reconsider their position
So what's changed?
From the point of view of the person wanting to do it, nothing. If someone has a perceived value and you can see a benefit in working for nothing then why would that be worse than actually paying £500 for a weekend course in lighting?
It's a bit like people looking down their nose at TFP. If money changes hands everything is OK but if there's no money involved it has no value?
I agree, but my point was I couldn't see a benefit in the OP's post cos I felt it wasn't explained very well. And there lies the problem perhaps...:shrug:
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well to be fair the bag carrying is the reason the opportunity exists - she's preggers and thus isnt going to be carrying heavy kit so has need of a volunteer to assist
I agree with you that volunteers should know what they are getting out of it, however to be fair to lyn she did say for people to pm for details, I think her intention in this thread was to get peoples initial interest not to get them to sign on the dotted line in blood.
any how - i'm off to ma bed - so night night all
I agree with you that volunteers should know what they are getting out of it, however to be fair to lyn she did say for people to pm for details, I think her intention in this thread was to get peoples initial interest not to get them to sign on the dotted line in blood.
any how - i'm off to ma bed - so night night all
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I'm not interested in the Wedding business but I could see that if I was that by turning up and just watching a Pro in action is bound to improve my "experience".
I could turn up at a friends wedding and with a fast prime I know I could get some good shots. However I don't think Weddings are purely about photography. I think it's inherent that you have to be accomplished in the craft, but (and it's the reason I don't want to do it) I can imagine there is a lot more involved in people skills/management, organisation "patter" and generally organising and working a crowd - far to much like hard work for me
fixedimage
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If Annie Leibovitz posted on here about carrying her bags on a Kirsten Dunst shoot I think those arguing against the whole idea might perhaps reconsider their position
So what's changed?
From the point of view of the person wanting to do it, nothing. If someone has a perceived value and you can see a benefit in working for nothing then why would that be worse than actually paying £500 for a weekend course in lighting?
It's a bit like people looking down their nose at TFP. If money changes hands everything is OK but if there's no money involved it has no value?
Having done both I can safely say that assisting on a fashion shoot is quite different to carrying bags (or even being second shooter) at a wedding in terms of what you'll pick up from the photographer.
In that link that Alastair posted it worth noting the HMRC definition of a volunteer,
In general a volunteer is someone who:
- has an arrangement with you or your organisation, which does NOT entitle them to a financial reward or benefit in kind for work they perform under the arrangement
- does not have to turn up for work if they don't want to (even if you or their colleagues expect them to or they generally work to a regular pattern)
- cannot be dismissed, sued for breach of contract or have payment or reward withheld if they fail to do the work or perform the services they were providing
In the context of wedding photography the second point in that list should be quite pertinent - I don't imagine the OP wants to be getting a call on the morning of a wedding with an excuse like "oh, I was out last night and I'm too hungover to come", or worse, no call, assistant just doesn't show up (ringing any bells with the TFP guys?) and the third point even more so, ie if someone replies to the OP and takes the job and after half an hour of bag carrying they've had enough, hit the bar and get drunk and vomit on the bride or format the OP's memory card when they aren't looking then the OP would be liable and would not be able to sue the assistant for breach of contract as they would have been if the assistant was paid.
So, nevermind the assistant wanting to work for free, the OP should be wanting to pay them for her own piece of mind.
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Your right Mike, don't dis-agree with that at all.
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Wow certainly a lot of discussion going on while i was asleep!!
Pm's with more details sent to those that have shown an interest!
I think this discussion has gone far enough and now 3 pages long and it has got away from my request!! I thank you all for you comments (some of which have been noted), but please start another thread complaining about the pros and cons of working for free (in any industry not just weddings).
As a pro tog I sometimes (when im not busy) second shoot for another pro tog, for free, just to gain an insight into how they works as watching another tog work and their approach is a valuable experience in itself.
I will not be posting on this thread again. If anyone is interested please PM me where I will gladly supply you with more details.
Pm's with more details sent to those that have shown an interest!
I think this discussion has gone far enough and now 3 pages long and it has got away from my request!! I thank you all for you comments (some of which have been noted), but please start another thread complaining about the pros and cons of working for free (in any industry not just weddings).
As a pro tog I sometimes (when im not busy) second shoot for another pro tog, for free, just to gain an insight into how they works as watching another tog work and their approach is a valuable experience in itself.
I will not be posting on this thread again. If anyone is interested please PM me where I will gladly supply you with more details.
The thing is there would be a fair bit of learning by osmosis going on. Not "what settings did you use" type things going on because that quite frankly shouldn't be needed for someone looking to strike out on their own. But things like how to manage guests and the set shot lists if there are any, how and what to prioritise when running out of time, how to deal with unexpected developments, how to deal with crappy light when things overrun or the weather changes, how to deal with busybody relatives and others with cameras, realising when someone else's flash is triggering your strobes if you're optically triggering them or someone is trying to time their shot to match with yours while shooting over your shoulder, how to handle everyone in such a way they all do what you need them to over the day...that's the stuff I'd want to learn if I were wanting to break into wedding photography (I don't). Camera settings are easy, and your style is something that develops with time. The experience in the thick of it is what you can get from shadowing, and there's no other way to get it except doing your own weddings.
D
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Id do it unpaid if experience is indeed on the cards - but not as an unpaid camera carrier, noi way ho'se
Les :shrug:
Les :shrug:
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asphotographymk
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The way i see it is this. If a photographer wants/needs an assistant for what ever reason .... in this case the reason is to carry gear due to pregnancy then you are hiring someone. If you hire someone then it should be paid. I am sure the photographer wouldn't work for nothing so why should there hard working assistant. Its all well and good saying its a great experience roll but unless training is being given which at a live event is hard then payment should be made. This is clearly employment as a roll has been advertised with a specific job description.
If the assistant requests to do it and the photographer would normally shoot without an assistant and there are no change of circumstances to stop this being possible (such as pregnancy) then it is there choice to shadow the photographer. They are then not an assistant they are there as a shadow if they wish to get hands on that is there choice and this is then volunteering.
To the OP.. Surly you can pay a freelance assistant a little day rate for the service they are providing you? Even if its just £30 to cover expenses its a little less insulting than free.
If the assistant requests to do it and the photographer would normally shoot without an assistant and there are no change of circumstances to stop this being possible (such as pregnancy) then it is there choice to shadow the photographer. They are then not an assistant they are there as a shadow if they wish to get hands on that is there choice and this is then volunteering.
To the OP.. Surly you can pay a freelance assistant a little day rate for the service they are providing you? Even if its just £30 to cover expenses its a little less insulting than free.
Dave Stone
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People on here are always moaning about giving their work away for nothing. And, then expect someone to work for them for nothing. Pay the assistant as Andy says. Would you be using any of the images taken by your assistant?
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If someone's working for experience they aren't working for 'nothing' - if she does decide to pay the assistant lyn will have to pay minimum wage (unless its set up as a formal apprentice and they are under 19 but i digress), bunging them a flat fee to cover unspecified expenses will lead both parties into trouble with HMRC and employment law
The other option would be to take them as a subcontractor which evades the NMW issue, but will create other issues such as the assistant needing to be registered self employed.
Loads of people do work free of charge to nget experience in all sorts of feilds so i cant see a problem with this - a volunteer/intern should have their expenses covered but this must be against receipts (or at a max of 45p/mile for car travel)
The other option would be to take them as a subcontractor which evades the NMW issue, but will create other issues such as the assistant needing to be registered self employed.
Loads of people do work free of charge to nget experience in all sorts of feilds so i cant see a problem with this - a volunteer/intern should have their expenses covered but this must be against receipts (or at a max of 45p/mile for car travel)
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