Wanting to get more experience in wedding work

Lindsay D said:
That's it, in a nutshell.

One of the reasons why threads like this can be so contentious is that an OP often expects somebody to pop out of the woodwork and show them the ropes (preferably within a few weeks, and for free of course) so that they can get on and enjoy a lovely new career earning loads of money photographing weddings. As the more experienced photographers will testify, that approach has no basis in reality, but reality (usually many years of learning, training, practising, portfolio building, referral building etc) is not something that many newcomers wish to consider. We live in a "wannabe culture" - wannabe rich but don't wanna have to work hard; wannabe thin but don't wanna exercise, etc etc.
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I'm glad I went on to this with my eyes open, or at least half open anyway. I knew that my business would not just take off from the moment I started it. Photography is more of a passion than a job really, you have to really love doing it to have the enthusiasm to put the hard work in. I often get impatient with it and wish that things moved along a bit quicker but I accept that not everyone is willing to give a new business a chance, especially with wedding photography, you only get one chance to get that right. I don't expect something fir nothing, I suppose I needed guidance on what to offer really.

You're right in what you say though, there is too much of that going on everywhere you look, you just don't get something for nothing though, especially not these days.
 
Just for clarity and to hopefully head off the trouble causers.

It's not 'proper' hard work, and it's great fun too.

But it's not the easy money many people see it as either. Whilst we get many comments at weddings to the effect that we have been hard at it for many hours, many also comment how obviously happy we are to have the job we do.
 
amumonamission said:
Yes I would do that too with large groups to ensure all people remain sharp, you would have too much dof with any thing lower :)
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I know you actually mean not enough - but you'd be wrong :D

Shooting a typical group of 20+ people from 30 ft away at 30 mm (crop sensor) and at f4 would give...

Subject distance 30 ft

Depth of field
Near limit 16.6 ft
Far limit 158 ft
Total 141.4 ft

According to the online DoF calculator - more than enough even if they were 2 even 3 deep - in fact they could all stand one behind the other and they'd still all be in focus !!!

Switching to a close family group at 150mm still at 30ft and f4 would give 2ft of sharpness, as this group would all be in-line and people are rarely more than 2ft thick !!! It'd be enough too :D

F8 would be overkill and add nothing but more detail in the background you don't need or want

Dave
 
Phil V said:
Just for clarity and to hopefully head off the trouble causers.

It's not 'proper' hard work, and it's great fun too.

But it's not the easy money many people see it as either. Whilst we get many comments at weddings to the effect that we have been hard at it for many hours, many also comment how obviously happy we are to have the job we do.
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Yes, I agree it is great fun.

Nothing is worth having unless you really work for it anyway, in my opinion that is :)
 
DG Phototraining said:
I know you actually mean not enough - but you'd be wrong :D

Shooting a typical group of 20+ people from 30 ft away at 30 mm (crop sensor) and at f4 would give...

Subject distance 30 ft

Depth of field
Near limit 16.6 ft
Far limit 158 ft
Total 141.4 ft

According to the online DoF calculator - more than enough even if they were 2 even 3 deep - in fact they could all stand one behind the other and they'd still all be in focus !!!

Switching to a close family group at 150mm still at 30ft and f4 would give 2ft of sharpness, as this group would all be in-line and people are rarely more than 2ft thick !!! It'd be enough too :D

F8 would be overkill and add nothing but more detail in the background you don't need or want

Dave
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Thats worth thinking about, thanks for that. I'm obviously being too over cautious here :)

Thanks :)
 
dkh said:
Sorry Dave, there a few opportunities to shoot from 30ft. My normal distance to groups is 3 to 5mtrs at most.
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But I think dave is saying that he would still use the same settings whatever the distance isn't he? Correct me if I am wrong and I am no expert otherwise I wouldn't have posted but In a post further up he said that the he rarely goes above 5.6 but mainly uses 4 and under. I haven't done any calculating but I am assuming that Dave thinks that 5.6 would be sufficient for a group shot?

Worth thinking about for sure as the shots are much nicer without background distraction. Unless it was intended to have the background in the photo, which I have seen in some wedding shots.
 
dkh said:
I personally wouldn't use the same distance regardless of distance. Also, 24-35mm will have much greater depth of field (more in focus) than say 70-200mm.
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It's great to hear everyone's opinions though. As you both have obviously achieved great shots and been happy with them doing it your way. It would be a boring world if we were all the same. As long as the end product is good and you're happy with it and so is the client the that's all good isn't it :)
 
amumonamission said:
It's great to hear everyone's opinions though. As you both have obviously achieved great shots and been happy with them doing it your way. It would be a boring world if we were all the same. As long as the end product is good and you're happy with it and so is the client the that's all good isn't it :)
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:agree:

But using an unnecessarily high f-stop is not uncommon, and nor is it 'wrong'

I've never had to do groups close and indoors, so as I know my f-stops I also know my range is always covered anyway

But glad not everyone does it my way - everyone's shots would look too similar if so :D

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
:agree:

But using an unnecessarily high f-stop is not uncommon, and nor is it 'wrong'

I've never had to do groups close and indoors, so as I know my f-stops I also know my range is always covered anyway

But glad not everyone does it my way - everyone's shots would look too similar if so :D

Dave
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Exactly. I will be trying it both ways now to see what results I get. :)
 
amumonamission said:
Yes, I agree it is great fun.
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Wait until it's your sole form of income (if that's the intention) and then decide if it's great fun ... it will be some of the time, but it can also be very tiring and stressful - running a profitable business is tough, far tougher than most newcomers imagine (and running at a loss is very easy). If you decide to go full time be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices. :) The sacrifices also apply to the part time photographers, who usually have to give up an equal measure of their weekends and evenings, though the presence of an alternative form of income can relieve the financial worries somewhat which is likely to aid their enjoyment of their photography. I think it depends on how far you want to take your photography career, and whether it's to be your dominant income stream. Since I went full time the pleasure quotient slipped dramatically, and that's something to bear in mind.
 
Lindsay D said:
Wait until it's your sole form of income (if that's the intention) and then decide if it's great fun ... it will be some of the time, but it can also be very tiring and stressful - running a profitable business is tough, far tougher than most newcomers imagine (and running at a loss is very easy). If you decide to go full time be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices. :) The sacrifices also apply to the part time photographers, who usually have to give up an equal measure of their weekends and evenings, though the presence of an alternative form of income can relieve the financial worries somewhat which is likely to aid their enjoyment of their photography. I think it depends on how far you want to take your photography career, and whether it's to be your dominant income stream. Since I went full time the pleasure quotient slipped dramatically, and that's something to bear in mind.
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Yes I can imagine that there will be much more pressure if you take it on full time, at the moment I am only intending on taking it on part time, I have three children so fitting anything other than part time would be impossible at the moment. I understand what you are saying though and I equally understand that even though I have only taken this on part time at the moment I will stall need to and am already making sacrifices. At the moment I still enjoy every moment of it so that's good. I will bare in mind what you have said though if I start to think about going full time. :)
 
Lindsay D said:
Wait until it's your sole form of income (if that's the intention) and then decide if it's great fun ... it will be some of the time, but it can also be very tiring and stressful - running a profitable business is tough, far tougher than most newcomers imagine (and running at a loss is very easy). If you decide to go full time be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices. :) The sacrifices also apply to the part time photographers, who usually have to give up an equal measure of their weekends and evenings, though the presence of an alternative form of income can relieve the financial worries somewhat which is likely to aid their enjoyment of their photography. I think it depends on how far you want to take your photography career, and whether it's to be your dominant income stream. Since I went full time the pleasure quotient slipped dramatically, and that's something to bear in mind.
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I'd have to agree.

When I went full time I had an awful time. To be fair, despite a business plan and what I thought was all the information I needed I was completely clueless.

Next time will be better.
 
amumonamission said:
Ok thanks I will take all this in to consideration. :)
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I am new to the forum and have really enjoyed reading the constructive and informative nature of this thread.

I can vouch for a lot of what has been said - I have a main income but also run a photography and filming business specialising in asian weddings - at times (in fact most of the time) it is pleasurable but running the business both from a financial perspective and pressure on time during peak wedding season can be stressful - many a time when my weekends and evening time have disappeared!
 
leapark1 said:
I am new to the forum and have really enjoyed reading the constructive and informative nature of this thread.

I can vouch for a lot of what has been said - I have a main income but also run a photography and filming business specialising in asian weddings - at times (in fact most of the time) it is pleasurable but running the business both from a financial perspective and pressure on time during peak wedding season can be stressful - many a time when my weekends and evening time have disappeared!
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Yeah I have found it to be very helpful. I always get good advice here :)
 
I just happened to click on another photographers advert through Facebook, was just being nosey really, just to see what the offer was and I found that the photographer is offering a massive discount on winter 2013 weddings in order to build a 'good' portfolio of photographs. They are saying the usual cost would be £750 but the offer price is £200!!!

This has got me thinking, to me immediately, I am thinking that the photographer has limited experience with weddings otherwise they would not have a need to build a portfolio of work. So, I'm wondering, if I were to offer a limited number of days at a reduced rate in order to create a portfolio of work could this be a road to go down...???

I already think that my prices reflect my experience but maybe a small discount might temp people into giving me a chance to prove my self???

Is this a good idea? Or should I just carry on as I have been doing?
 
there is a thin line to which cheap becomes too cheap and possibly 70% of people will think like I do with car tyres for racing.... too cheap means one thing... crap.

I know this isn't totally true with regards to photography as we all start but don't lower yourself to £150 etc as I believe people will literally look at it and walk away saying "hmmm, can't be much good etc".. well thats my view on it anyway.

discounts, yes... insane low prices, no.
 
dalegt4 said:
there is a thin line to which cheap becomes too cheap and possibly 70% of people will think like I do with car tyres for racing.... too cheap means one thing... crap.

I know this isn't totally true with regards to photography as we all start but don't lower yourself to £150 etc as I believe people will literally look at it and walk away saying "hmmm, can't be much good etc".. well thats my view on it anyway.

discounts, yes... insane low prices, no.
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Yes I know exactly what you mean. I think I will just keep my prices as they are then as I really do feel that my prices reflect my experience and skill with out being so cheep that people will look and think 'well she must be rubbish then'.

Thanks for confirming this for me :)
 
amumonamission said:
I just happened to click on another photographers advert through Facebook, was just being nosey really, just to see what the offer was and I found that the photographer is offering a massive discount on winter 2013 weddings in order to build a 'good' portfolio of photographs. They are saying the usual cost would be £750 but the offer price is £200!!!

This has got me thinking, to me immediately, I am thinking that the photographer has limited experience with weddings otherwise they would not have a need to build a portfolio of work. So, I'm wondering, if I were to offer a limited number of days at a reduced rate in order to create a portfolio of work could this be a road to go down...???

I already think that my prices reflect my experience but maybe a small discount might temp people into giving me a chance to prove my self???

Is this a good idea? Or should I just carry on as I have been doing?
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It's the oldest debate in the industry.

It's worked for some, but I think you have to run it very smartly.

You're not likely to attract beautiful brides having fairytale weddings in castles, those brides usually want a reassuringly expensive photographer.

The risk is that you'll end up with toothless brides in the back room of working men's clubs.

Obviously the above is a gross exaggeration and to be ignored by anyone without a sense of humour.

You could vet the weddings carefully, or set up a limited offer of some description which would allow you to be selective.

Encouraging your enquiries to like your FB page is a great way to get a feel for people before you meet them, that works for all enquiries.
 
Phil V said:
The risk is that you'll end up with toothless brides in the back room of working men's clubs.
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LMAO :lol::lol::lol:


Phil V said:
You could vet the weddings carefully, or set up a limited offer of some description which would allow you to be selective.
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I have been thinking since replying to the previous post that I may offer a small discount, say 10% on only my most expensive package and see what interest that attracts, although I am undecided at the moment..

Phil V said:
Encouraging your enquiries to like your FB page is a great way to get a feel for people before you meet them, that works for all enquiries.
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Yes I always try to get people on to my FB page by saying thats where I advertise all my offers :)
 
the problem with cheap weddings to build a portfolio is that you wind up with a portfolio full of cheap weddings - which is fine if thats all you ever want to do , but a portfolio full of "darren and shaz's registry office followed by a disco at the ferret and firkin" isnt likely to impress if you want to move upmarket once experienced
 
big soft moose said:
the problem with cheap weddings to build a portfolio is that you wind up with a portfolio full of cheap weddings - which is fine if thats all you ever want to do , but a portfolio full of "darren and shaz's registry office followed by a disco at the ferret and firkin" isnt likely to impress if you want to move upmarket once experienced
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Yes I hadn't thought about it like that. Thanks for your advice :)
 
It is a difficult place to be but sometimes it is just getting the right break and you will find some weddings will give you much more 'showcase' material than others - Ultimately it will be your ability, output and presentation that will get you repeat and new business. I think the key is to be honest with your client in terms of what you do and how you do it. The pricing is very important and you must never undersell yourself. I major on filming DSLR weddings (but also photography) and was recently approached to produce a music video - completely new to me not from a filming perspective but in terms of techniques and filming style. I told the client I had not produced a music video but he did seriously consider me before opting for one the main production houses. You win some and you lose some but I do think honesty is best policy as it will manage expectations all round.
 
What about building a portfolio by hiring models? I know it may sound expensive but if you approach local colleges, there are actually young 'Aspiring' models looking for some professional shoots so this works out better for tog and model. Again, nothing is for free but if you think about contacting local bridal shops they could loan some dresses - you kill 3 birds with one stone, the Bridal shop gets some decent shots of their product lineup, a model gets her shots and the tog gets a better portfolio. The location would be the next part but there's plenty of places a tog can go with the kit and the subjects (consider buying a British heritage membership to get some extra locations etc)

This is just advice from my point of view but I've done this and a few other friends in the trade have done also :) - Ofcourse it will be obvious to not approach Moss Bros etc as they have their own dedicated togs but smaller businesses will appreciate this kind of work.
 
leapark1 said:
It is a difficult place to be but sometimes it is just getting the right break and you will find some weddings will give you much more 'showcase' material than others - Ultimately it will be your ability, output and presentation that will get you repeat and new business. I think the key is to be honest with your client in terms of what you do and how you do it. The pricing is very important and you must never undersell yourself. I major on filming DSLR weddings (but also photography) and was recently approached to produce a music video - completely new to me not from a filming perspective but in terms of techniques and filming style. I told the client I had not produced a music video but he did seriously consider me before opting for one the main production houses. You win some and you lose some but I do think honesty is best policy as it will manage expectations all round.
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Yes I totally agree with you about being honest, I have always been honest with my potential clients about my experience and I had a couple who also seriously considered me for their wedding before opting to go with someone who had more experience than me. However, I have recently taken a booking from a couple who hired me because they said they liked the idea that I was a young Mum trying to make my way in the work by turning my hobby in to a business. So I agree that honesty might not get you the deal at the end of the day but it's better than potentially raising expectations. :)
 
Flightphoto said:
What about building a portfolio by hiring models? I know it may sound expensive but if you approach local colleges, there are actually young 'Aspiring' models looking for some professional shoots so this works out better for tog and model. Again, nothing is for free but if you think about contacting local bridal shops they could loan some dresses - you kill 3 birds with one stone, the Bridal shop gets some decent shots of their product lineup, a model gets her shots and the tog gets a better portfolio. The location would be the next part but there's plenty of places a tog can go with the kit and the subjects (consider buying a British heritage membership to get some extra locations etc)

This is just advice from my point of view but I've done this and a few other friends in the trade have done also :) - Ofcourse it will be obvious to not approach Moss Bros etc as they have their own dedicated togs but smaller businesses will appreciate this kind of work.
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Yeah I do see your point here and its not a bad idea and is one that I will consider. But i still won't cover the 'getting more wedding experience' which is what I am ultimately after. I do however, realise that it could lead to this so I thank you for your advise and I will consider it :)
 
big soft moose said:
the problem with cheap weddings to build a portfolio is that you wind up with a portfolio full of cheap weddings - which is fine if thats all you ever want to do , but a portfolio full of "darren and shaz's registry office followed by a disco at the ferret and firkin" isnt likely to impress if you want to move upmarket once experienced
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On the other hand, if your capable of making a chav fest look classy, that can only be a positive... Surely?
 
amumonamission said:
Yes I totally agree with you about being honest, I have always been honest with my potential clients about my experience and I had a couple who also seriously considered me for their wedding before opting to go with someone who had more experience than me. However, I have recently taken a booking from a couple who hired me because they said they liked the idea that I was a young Mum trying to make my way in the work by turning my hobby in to a business. So I agree that honesty might not get you the deal at the end of the day but it's better than potentially raising expectations. :)
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Yes, on being honest about experience levels, some potential clients also take the view that you will be trying that much harder and be more attentive to their wedding than someone who might see it as 'yet another job' though i must admit that is a big generalisation - I have shot & filmed hundreds of weddings and still feel enthusiastic about every one and treat each one on its merits
 
Flightphoto said:
What about building a portfolio by hiring models? I know it may sound expensive but if you approach local colleges, there are actually young 'Aspiring' models looking for some professional shoots so this works out better for tog and model. Again, nothing is for free but if you think about contacting local bridal shops they could loan some dresses - you kill 3 birds with one stone, the Bridal shop gets some decent shots of their product lineup, a model gets her shots and the tog gets a better portfolio. The location would be the next part but there's plenty of places a tog can go with the kit and the subjects (consider buying a British heritage membership to get some extra locations etc)

This is just advice from my point of view but I've done this and a few other friends in the trade have done also :) - Ofcourse it will be obvious to not approach Moss Bros etc as they have their own dedicated togs but smaller businesses will appreciate this kind of work.
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That is just plain wrong.
Do you seriously suggest passing off posed shots with models would be representative of anyone's actual wedding work?
It's bordering on the fraudulent, in my opinion.
 
RBaker said:
That is just plain wrong.
Do you seriously suggest passing off posed shots with models would be representative of anyone's actual wedding work?
It's bordering on the fraudulent, in my opinion.
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:thumbs: -its just about okay to use posed shots for website headers etc , but using them in the portfolio as real weddings without declaring what they are is 'intention to decieve'

oh and by the way buying an english heritage , or national trust membership will not increase your range of possible locations to stage- because although both organisations broadly permit visitor photography, both also charge for commercial work
 
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amumonamission said:
Yeah I do see your point here and its not a bad idea and is one that I will consider. But i still won't cover the 'getting more wedding experience' which is what I am ultimately after. I do however, realise that it could lead to this so I thank you for your advise and I will consider it :)
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As above - don't consider it, it's a nuts idea. Stick with your plan, there's no substitute for getting real wedding experience under your belt, and workshop images NEVER look like real wedding images. You might be able to fool a few potential brides - but is fooling potential customers something you want to do?

The workshop idea is great for doing a little experimentation - trying out new things you're not sure you could fit into a wedding day, getting together with other photographers and sharing knowledge etc. But it's not to be considered 'instead of' genuine experience.
 
Who said about passing off models as real wedding shots? I was simply saying to the OP that it was purely for the experience of someone in the dress etc! With regards to English Heritage, yes you will need to contact them but they're not actually that restricted on photography, Old Sarum which is near where I live are more than welcome with this type of work, I've seen countless togs there doing reenactment shots of which those photos are then posted on the Old Sarum website and the Wiltshire site. Same goes for Stone Henge when they do the photography evenings etc! This was purely some ideas for the OP if he's trying to get some experience and portfolio work in the door etc.
 
The OP is looking for experience of shooting weddings - that is completely different to shooting a staged model in a dress.

also on the venues things theres a substantial difference between shooting renactments and shooting a staged wedding - the latter would definitely be considered comercial work for which you'd need to pay
 
Thanks everyone. I will be sticking to my original plan though and waiting for some good luck to fall my way, will be being completely honest and open about my experience and hoping that someone will give me the opportunity to shoot their wedding. I have already shot two weddings, gained one booking for this year and one booking for next year by using this approach and I have a meeting tomorrow with a couple about another wedding for this year (wish me luck :) ) I have put my plans on hold at present with regards to finding another photographer to assist, not because I don't want to do it or because I have been put off the idea, just because at the moment when I am just getting the ball rolling and still in my first year of business I feel my time would be better spent establishing myself more and working on building my own image if that makes sense. If I still feel I would like more experience in a years time then I will probably look down that route then. I would like to thank you all very much for your advice here, it is much appreciated as always :)
 
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