Wanting to get more experience in wedding work

Try the business forum.

But may I suggest that you word it such that it is clear what you are offering to the photographer?

I mean you want experience. Good for you. What does the photographer get other than more future competition?
 
Or try using the search function, have a read and get some ideas before the dragons unleash their fury ;)
 
Try the business forum.

But may I suggest that you word it such that it is clear what you are offering to the photographer?

I mean you want experience. Good for you. What does the photographer get other than more future competition?


Nail hit firmly on head :)

For me right now I'd much rather have an assistant than a 2nd shooter - so someone who has a good idea of how to light with OCF etc. and lighting patterns, poses even; or perhaps someone FAB at adding a style in PP with a quick workflow

What I never find any use for or will entertain are those that simply ask to 'shadow' me to see how I work while shooting images for their portfolio too - that's basically training and should be paid for !!!

So yes - have something, skillset even, in your bag that someone else may find useful - even if its how to attract clients through Facebook, Networking, etc. - which you should be exploring for your own purposes anyway

Dave
 
I was thinking that I would offer my services for free and the photographer who I would be assisting can use my images at no charge by me. I have my own ideas that I would like to try without the pressure of being the only photographer of the wedding. Is that enough to offer in exchange for the experience, confidence building and being able to use the images for my portfolio?
 
I was thinking that I would offer my services for free and the photographer who I would be assisting can use my images at no charge by me. I have my own ideas that I would like to try without the pressure of being the only photographer of the wedding. Is that enough to offer in exchange for the experience, confidence building and being able to use the images for my portfolio?

If you have a proven portfolio of good photos showing a keen eye for a shot, some interesting observational skills, and great PP too - then maybe

For me though - for a 2nd shooter's images to be of any use at all they must sit well with my own, that means shooting what I tell you & how I tell you

For example - I don't like images shot on a tilt, so if you handed me 100 FAB shots all tilted I'd probably bin the lot of them. I rarely shoot anything above f5.6 and mostly f4 or below, so if you showed me some FAB images all shot at f16 I'd probably bin them all. I shoot speeches with OCF via a TTL cable, if you shot them in any other way... well you can see where that's going :D

So no - having the use of some photos that may be great but will look totally out of place in my albums is of no use whatsoever - and if you can't prove to me that you're a very good technically competent photographer I'm not ever going to entertain you

I hope that doesn't just sound harsh, but it is reality

If you offered to merely assist carrying stuff and being a VALS then that'd be much more useful, and if you did that right and we got on well too, then you could bring a camera as well probably. If I still didn't like your photos for MY use (they could be FAB photos) then I may well still not use them, you shouldn't get upset about that as all it'd mean is that we don't have the same style

IMHO you would learn far more and more quickly assisting than trying to take your own shots - oh, and you NEED to work with several togs too ideally and just pick whatever suits you best from them all :)

Dave
 
If you have a proven portfolio of good photos showing a keen eye for a shot, some interesting observational skills, and great PP too - then maybe

For me though - for a 2nd shooter's images to be of any use at all they must sit well with my own, that means shooting what I tell you & how I tell you

For example - I don't like images shot on a tilt, so if you handed me 100 FAB shots all tilted I'd probably bin the lot of them. I rarely shoot anything above f5.6 and mostly f4 or below, so if you showed me some FAB images all shot at f16 I'd probably bin them all. I shoot speeches with OCF via a TTL cable, if you shot them in any other way... well you can see where that's going :D

So no - having the use of some photos that may be great but will look totally out of place in my albums is of no use whatsoever - and if you can't prove to me that you're a very good technically competent photographer I'm not ever going to entertain you

I hope that doesn't just sound harsh, but it is reality

If you offered to merely assist carrying stuff and being a VALS then that'd be much more useful, and if you did that right and we got on well too, then you could bring a camera as well probably. If I still didn't like your photos for MY use (they could be FAB photos) then I may well still not use them, you shouldn't get upset about that as all it'd mean is that we don't have the same style

IMHO you would learn far more and more quickly assisting than trying to take your own shots - oh, and you NEED to work with several togs too ideally and just pick whatever suits you best from them all :)

Dave

Can't work out how to multi quote :bonk:

I'm with you on the photo's on a tilt style, I don't like it either. I rarely use an f stop above 4 either. I wouldn't have naturally gone down the road of ocf though, another reason I suppose for wanting more experience.

So you're saying then that if I came along and assisted you for a few weddings by carrying bags and equipment etc then providing we got on you may then let me take photos too even if you might not use them yourself?
 
So you're saying then that if I came along and assisted you for a few weddings by carrying bags and equipment etc then providing we got on you may then let me take photos too even if you might not use them yourself?

Exactly - but... I don't mean me as such - just anyone you may approach

A 2nd shooter has to perfectly fit in with the main tog - if you want to shoot your own style, that may not fit in and hence any images - however great - may not be used

Wanting to shoot your own way is therefore not attractive to the main tog you're asking to let you come along

So in offering yourself I'd personally prefer an assistant who has a clue how to assist than anyone offering me their images - I don't 'need' images, though I could do with an assistant, who may then also shoot but under strict control - which you may not want

See - its not easy to please us both :D

But as the main potentially risking my rep with anyone new attending you MUST sell yourself well to me, just saying you'll work for free and I can use some images I don't need and may not want is hardly attractive :shake:

Oh - and on that basis - I'd much rather pay an assistant than 'abuse' a wannabe

Dave
 
Dave is 100% spot on.

Sarah - remember that the lead photographer has invested considerable time, reputation and overhead in gaining each wedding and as such the event is not a free forum for newbies to experiment and gather portfolio images (let alone experience and guidance) - for the reasons Dave has said and more. Therefore you'll need to be really useful before somebody will consider taking you on. You will obviously also need to be fully insured since the lead photographer is unlikely to have employee liability cover.

Edit: each week or so I get one-liners from wannabes who tell me nothing about themselves, no mention of where they're based or where they can travel to, no examples of relevant experience, no images - nothing. And they expect me to have them along on paid assignments (where they will become the very public face of my business) and provide training as well, all for free of course. They have none of the skills Dave has mentioned. So when you approach photographers do take the time to make yourself appealing to them. Virtually all of the applications I receive don't even know my name, nor have they looked at my work.
 
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Dave is 100% spot on.

Sarah - remember that the lead photographer has invested considerable time, reputation and overhead in gaining each wedding and as such the event is not a free forum for newbies to experiment and gather portfolio images (let alone experience and guidance) - for the reasons Dave has said and more. Therefore you'll need to be really useful before somebody will consider taking you on. You will obviously also need to be fully insured since the lead photographer is unlikely to have employee liability cover.

:agree:

And I'm sure that Lindsay, like me, wishes you every success in your endeavours :)

I NEVER want to discourage anyone from entering the FAB world of Wedding Photography, especially as I teach how to !!!

So I hope you accept the above as positive guidance, put together a good proposition selling yourself and a range of great images too to prove you can shoot well - BEFORE you approach anyone, as otherwise you may well be disheartened unnecessarily

Chances are when people say 'NO' they are not saying no to you as the lovely person you may be, they are just saying its not right for them, or your offering isn't, at that time - don't take it personally

Good luck

Dave
 
yes I knew you meant anyone I approach.

From what you have said it does seem like it would be hard to please both of us in a way that we would both get everything we want from it. As a photographer yourself I understand that you would want to have control over an assistant shooter as like you say it has to fit in with your style and the couple have hired you presumably because it is your style they like. I wouldn't necessarily see that as such a bad thing though, although I have ideas that I would like to try, I would see it as gaining experience and confidence building which I would still get from that work even if I wasn't practicing my own style.

I get your point about paying an assistant rather than abusing a wannabe, I'm interested to know how you would distinguish the two? So, to clarify, 'Assistant' I would class as a professional person offering a professional service and doing it well and a 'wannabe' someone who thinks they want to be a professional in this field but actually doesn't end up following it through due to lack of commitment or enthusiasm. I would like to know how you would know the difference between the two upon first meeting them? Sorry for all of the questions, I hope you don't mind, I just don't want to come across as a wannabe!
 
If you have a proven portfolio of good photos showing a keen eye for a shot, some interesting observational skills, and great PP too - then maybe

For me though - for a 2nd shooter's images to be of any use at all they must sit well with my own, that means shooting what I tell you & how I tell you

For example - I don't like images shot on a tilt, so if you handed me 100 FAB shots all tilted I'd probably bin the lot of them. I rarely shoot anything above f5.6 and mostly f4 or below, so if you showed me some FAB images all shot at f16 I'd probably bin them all. I shoot speeches with OCF via a TTL cable, if you shot them in any other way... well you can see where that's going :D

So no - having the use of some photos that may be great but will look totally out of place in my albums is of no use whatsoever - and if you can't prove to me that you're a very good technically competent photographer I'm not ever going to entertain you

I hope that doesn't just sound harsh, but it is reality

If you offered to merely assist carrying stuff and being a VALS then that'd be much more useful, and if you did that right and we got on well too, then you could bring a camera as well probably. If I still didn't like your photos for MY use (they could be FAB photos) then I may well still not use them, you shouldn't get upset about that as all it'd mean is that we don't have the same style

IMHO you would learn far more and more quickly assisting than trying to take your own shots - oh, and you NEED to work with several togs too ideally and just pick whatever suits you best from them all :)

Dave

Dave is 100% spot on.

Sarah - remember that the lead photographer has invested considerable time, reputation and overhead in gaining each wedding and as such the event is not a free forum for newbies to experiment and gather portfolio images (let alone experience and guidance) - for the reasons Dave has said and more. Therefore you'll need to be really useful before somebody will consider taking you on. You will obviously also need to be fully insured since the lead photographer is unlikely to have employee liability cover.

Edit: each week or so I get one-liners from wannabes who tell me nothing about themselves, no mention of where they're based or where they can travel to, no examples of relevant experience, no images - nothing. And they expect me to have them along on paid assignments (where they will become the very public face of my business) and provide training as well, all for free of course. They have none of the skills Dave has mentioned. So when you approach photographers do take the time to make yourself appealing to them. Virtually all of the applications I receive don't even know my name, nor have they looked at my work.

Yeas I know that a lot of hard work would have gone in to gaining the job as photographer. Seems that I was asking a bit much then really wasn't I. Glad I posted here for advise before actually asking 'the question'.

Yes I am fully Insured so I've got that covered.

They expect you to pay them Lindsay?? That's unbelievable isn't it!

I will really think carefully before I ask photographers, I think this is going to take some time but it will be worth it if I can get it right.

Thank you
 
:agree:

And I'm sure that Lindsay, like me, wishes you every success in your endeavours :)

I NEVER want to discourage anyone from entering the FAB world of Wedding Photography, especially as I teach how to !!!

So I hope you accept the above as positive guidance, put together a good proposition selling yourself and a range of great images too to prove you can shoot well - BEFORE you approach anyone, as otherwise you may well be disheartened unnecessarily

Chances are when people say 'NO' they are not saying no to you as the lovely person you may be, they are just saying its not right for them, or your offering isn't, at that time - don't take it personally

Good luck

Dave

I do accept it as positive guidance. All your advice has been taken on board and I am really grateful for it. The last thing I want is to make a fool of myself or give people the wrong impression about me.

Thanks for all of your advice today :)
 
Yes I am fully Insured so I've got that covered.

They expect you to pay them Lindsay?? That's unbelievable isn't it!

The fact you're insured is really positive Sarah - most newcomers aren't and don't even consider it important.

Actually yes, I get enquiries from some people who do expect me to pay them - for, as they describe it 'looking over my shoulder and learning the ropes'. Most know nothing about photography but have fallen into the trap of believing it's easy money and all that's needed is a camera and lens. This is partly why threads about assisting or second shooting degenerate so rapidly!

The more you know, the more research you do, and the more enthusiastic you are the greater your chances of finding somebody who might be able to help you. Attitude is everything, and it's where many fall down unfortunately. If it were me I'd also expect a prospective wedding assistant to have a really good grasp of the flow of a wedding and the timeline, and an understanding of where you have to be and when, the importance of understanding who is who in the wedding party, things like that.

As far as my work goes my assistant (location portraiture mostly) undertakes a variety of tasks including doing the driving, helping to navigate, dropping me off and parking the car, unloading/carrying and monitoring the kit, putting up lights, keeping an eye on timings, doing a recce of the location to identify potential locations and light, and liaising with clients. Some of the more technical bits and bobs he had to be taught before being allowed out on assignment (he was already a pretty good photographer). In return, he has an ongoing training and development programme and when second shooting he is paid for every image the client chooses. His attendance at the Societies Convention is also paid for every year. He's been with me for three years and is approaching competency and could soon be entrusted with fully paid smaller lower pressure assignments. Everyone is different of course, but I need my assistant to be able to cope with some fairly demanding situations at times. We do have a lot of fun, too. So looking back over the practical tasks I've mentioned make sure you draw on those, if they are things you can do, when you make contact with potential photographers. Every little thing helps, particularly if you're good with people. I know it sounds obvious but also include whether you have a car, how far you're able to travel, what days of the week you're normally available and what you have achieved so far. Having said all of that, the assistants I've used over the years have all been people I already know, so I'm not concerned about their character or abilities being an unknown quantity. In other words be prepared to do some networking and get to know people first.

This is where good preparatory training comes in and I've heard really good things about Dave's courses - something to think about if he is in your area. All the best and let us know how you get on.
 
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The fact you're insured is really positive Sarah - most newcomers aren't and don't even consider it important.

Actually yes, I get enquiries from some people who do expect me to pay them - for, as they describe it 'looking over my shoulder and learning the ropes'. Most know nothing about photography but have fallen into the trap of believing it's easy money and all that's needed is a camera and lens. This is partly why threads about assisting or second shooting degenerate so rapidly!

The more you know, the more research you do, and the more enthusiastic you are the greater your chances of finding somebody who might be able to help you. Attitude is everything, and it's where many fall down unfortunately. If it were me I'd also expect a prospective wedding assistant to have a really good grasp of the flow of a wedding and the timeline, and an understanding of where you have to be and when, the importance of understanding who is who in the wedding party, things like that.

As far as my work goes my assistant (location portraiture mostly) undertakes a variety of tasks including doing the driving, helping to navigate, dropping me off and parking the car, unloading/carrying and monitoring the kit, putting up lights, keeping an eye on timings, doing a recce of the location to identify potential locations and light, and liaising with clients. Some of the more technical bits and bobs he had to be taught before being allowed out on assignment (he was already a pretty good photographer). In return, he has an ongoing training and development programme and when second shooting he is paid for every image the client chooses. His attendance at the Societies Convention is also paid for every year. He's been with me for three years and is approaching competency and could soon be entrusted with fully paid smaller lower pressure assignments. Everyone is different of course, but I need my assistant to be able to cope with some fairly demanding situations at times. We do have a lot of fun, too. So looking back over the practical tasks I've mentioned make sure you draw on those, if they are things you can do, when you make contact with potential photographers. Every little thing helps, particularly if you're good with people. I know it sounds obvious but also include whether you have a car, how far you're able to travel, what days of the week you're normally available and what you have achieved so far. Having said all of that, the assistants I've used over the years have all been people I already know, so I'm not concerned about their character or abilities being an unknown quantity. In other words be prepared to do some networking and get to know people first.

This is where good preparatory training comes in and I've heard really good things about Dave's courses - something to think about if he is in your area. All the best and let us know how you get on.

Thank you sooo much Lindsey fantastic advice here and much appreciated. Those things are all within my capabilities. I have actually been the main photographer at two weddings and coped well, my clients were pleased and I was happy that I met their expectations, I just know that there is more out there to learn. I have a wedding booked for next year, the couple have seen all my photographs from my previous weddings and are pleased with what they see, they are also aware of my experience, wouldn't it be nice though to exceed their expectations :)

I can't thank you and Dave enough for your advice, thank you :)
 
Just for a slightly different perspective (with similarities)
Ifi take a 2nd shooter to a wedding I'll be paying them. But I expect them to be totally independent and they're not there for the training.

When I shoot portraits, I often shoot solo, so I am happy to take along a volunteer assistant.

I expect them to work to instructions, and the learning for them would be done in preparation, at a de-brief and by observation during the shoot (I don't expect them to shoot but it could be agreed).

It'd be interesting to hear some other photographers views though. As you can see we're not all the same, but we're not vastly different either.
 
Just for a slightly different perspective (with similarities)
Ifi take a 2nd shooter to a wedding I'll be paying them. But I expect them to be totally independent and they're not there for the training.

When I shoot portraits, I often shoot solo, so I am happy to take along a volunteer assistant.

I expect them to work to instructions, and the learning for them would be done in preparation, at a de-brief and by observation during the shoot (I don't expect them to shoot but it could be agreed).

It'd be interesting to hear some other photographers views though. As you can see we're not all the same, but we're not vastly different either.

Hi Phil, would you ever consider taking an assistant with you to a wedding? In the way mentioned above by Dave and Lindsay?

Assuming that you will have already checked that a second photographer was competent in the technical side, would you allow them to use their own ideas and use the images in their portfolio? Or would your second photographer be under strict guidance and control by you?

Yes, I would also be interested to hear other photographs views too.
 
Thank you sooo much Lindsey fantastic advice here and much appreciated. Those things are all within my capabilities. I have actually been the main photographer at two weddings and coped well, my clients were pleased and I was happy that I met their expectations, I just know that there is more out there to learn. I have a wedding booked for next year, the couple have seen all my photographs from my previous weddings and are pleased with what they see, they are also aware of my experience, wouldn't it be nice though to exceed their expectations :)

I can't thank you and Dave enough for your advice, thank you :)

You're very welcome - I think you have a great outlook, and a healthy approach to your photography, no reason why you won't do well Sarah! As Phil has rightly alluded not every photographer wants or needs an assistant (essential for me at times due to my health, though I often work alone) since working styles do vary greatly. Having said that a great many, if not most, photographers have never had the chance to assist but have progressed via training and self-learning combined with practise.

Edit: a second shooter is normally covering areas where the lead photographer is elsewhere, and as Dave mentioned you would normally need to work in the style relevant to them, in line with what prospective clients would have seen in their portfolio. Deviating significantly from that would result in a disharmony within the image collection. The time to use your own style is when you're shooting your own projects and assignments. On the occasions I've had a second shooter they do have the right to use the images in their own portfolio with the stipulation that they state the images were taken whilst second shooting for me, they do have a Contract from the outset.
 
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You're very welcome - I think you have a great outlook, and a healthy approach to your photography, no reason why you won't do well Sarah! As Phil has rightly alluded not every photographer wants or needs an assistant (essential for me at times due to my health, though I often work alone) since working styles do vary greatly. Having said that a great many, if not most, photographers have never had the chance to assist but have progressed via training and self-learning combined with practise.

Yes, everything I have learned so far has been from watching videos online and asking questions on here. I learned the basics a long time ago, my Grandad was a photographer and taught me when I was 12, I never looked back really after that!
 
Hi Phil, would you ever consider taking an assistant with you to a wedding? In the way mentioned above by Dave and Lindsay?

Assuming that you will have already checked that a second photographer was competent in the technical side, would you allow them to use their own ideas and use the images in their portfolio? Or would your second photographer be under strict guidance and control by you?

Yes, I would also be interested to hear other photographs views too.

Tricky question.
Because we mostly shoot as a couple, and I sell 2 photographers. But my usual 2nd is my wife, and we work together seamlessly, my gut reaction would be that you'd have to shoot sympathetically to our style, but in reality I'd be more interested in you being good to work with.

I'd allow you to use images in your portfolio, but not jblog that you'd shot the wedding (does that make sense)

But, I'd not take an unpaid 2nd to a wedding, because I need someone I could rely on, I'd expect to pay them.
 
Good heavens! A thread about trying to get wedding experience that hasn't descended into teddy-throwing and we've got to <goes to look> Post #25!

It can be done! :eek:
 
It helps that it's not Sarah's first post and she's clearly not expecting the world to work around her.
 
And look how much effort Sarah has put into the thread!

It's a lesson in how to approach asking for help. :clap: :clap:
 
Absolutely. Perhaps this should have a sticky, or be preserved in the 'tutorials' bit.

(Nice one, Sarah - and good luck. :clap:)
 
Tricky question.
Because we mostly shoot as a couple, and I sell 2 photographers. But my usual 2nd is my wife, and we work together seamlessly, my gut reaction would be that you'd have to shoot sympathetically to our style, but in reality I'd be more interested in you being good to work with.

I'd allow you to use images in your portfolio, but not jblog that you'd shot the wedding (does that make sense)

But, I'd not take an unpaid 2nd to a wedding, because I need someone I could rely on, I'd expect to pay them.

Yes I think I know what you mean, you wouldn't want the work passed off as being the only photographer at the weddings work?

Thanks for your help Phil, much appreciated as always :)
 
Good heavens! A thread about trying to get wedding experience that hasn't descended into teddy-throwing and we've got to <goes to look> Post #25!

It can be done! :eek:

I have always been very lucky with my threads. Probably because I do not get easily offended and I am happy to accept advice, help and constructive criticism.

I always find everyone here to be friendly and helpful and alway make this my first stop when asking for help/advice.

I wouldn't be where I am today without this forum and everyones help here :) :thumbs:
 
And look how much effort Sarah has put into the thread!

It's a lesson in how to approach asking for help. :clap: :clap:

All the effort because I really do want to be successful :) This is something I really want to do and I want to succeed at it. It won't happen over night (as much as I want it too, I do get impatient sometimes!!) so I am happy to ask and take all advise offered. Then go away think it all through and plan what I am going to do.

I have seen people ask questions on here, not get the answers they wanted so ask again in another part of the forum, to me that just says two things, they had no respect for the advise given and they can't take constructive criticism. Therefore, not getting good quality advise in the future.
 
"I rarely shoot anything above f5.6 and mostly f4 or below, so if you showed me some FAB images all shot at f16 I'd probably bin them all".

I shoot most of my group shots with a 24-70 and minimum f5.6 if not f8. And, I do mean groups, not 3 or 4 people standing next to each other in one line.
 
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"I rarely shoot anything above f5.6 and mostly f4 or below, so if you showed me some FAB images all shot at f16 I'd probably bin them all".

I shoot most of my group shots with a 24-70 and minimum f5.6 if not f8. And, I do mean groups, not 3 or 4 people standing next to each other in one line.

Yes I would do that too with large groups to ensure all people remain sharp, you would have too much dof with any thing lower :)
 
The central issue is (I think) building a portfolio you'll feel is representative of your work, whilst gaining experience and learning from someone else.

The bad news is that there's no shortcuts, it's like paying off debt, you just have to get your head down and work till its done.

The worse news is that by the time you've shot enough weddings to get into your stride, most of your portfolio isn't any longer representative.

The good news is that it's the same for everyone. I know I don't shoot tons of weddings, but my portfolio isn't really the full picture of what we do 'now'.
 
The bad news is that there's no shortcuts,

That's it, in a nutshell.

One of the reasons why threads like this can be so contentious is that an OP often expects somebody to pop out of the woodwork and show them the ropes (preferably within a few weeks, and for free of course) so that they can get on and enjoy a lovely new career earning loads of money photographing weddings. As the more experienced photographers will testify, that approach has no basis in reality, but reality (usually many years of learning, training, practising, portfolio building, referral building etc) is not something that many newcomers wish to consider. We live in a "wannabe culture" - wannabe rich but don't wanna have to work hard; wannabe thin but don't wanna exercise, etc etc.
 
The central issue is (I think) building a portfolio you'll feel is representative of your work, whilst gaining experience and learning from someone else.

The bad news is that there's no shortcuts, it's like paying off debt, you just have to get your head down and work till its done.

The worse news is that by the time you've shot enough weddings to get into your stride, most of your portfolio isn't any longer representative.

The good news is that it's the same for everyone. I know I don't shoot tons of weddings, but my portfolio isn't really the full picture of what we do 'now'.

Yes that's what I was looking to do phil, however, I realise now that its not as simple as it sounds.

I feel that the best way forward is two ways here, one to carry on as I have been, being totally honest with interested potential clients about my experience with weddings and show them what I have achieved so far, I have got 3 bookings so far that way. Two work hard and really think about what I'm going to say to photographs who I am going to ask to assist. Oh and I am going to add a third one too, work really really hard at the weddings I have got booked in order to exceed expectations plus be brave and try my own ideas too. Hopefully all this hard word will pay off as if it all works out I would be gaining some experience and confidence by assisting other photographers, even if it was not the style I intended to use for my own work I would be gaining confidence to try my ideas on my own weddings I have booked. Therefore getting the images I would like for my own portfolio to show my own style.

It's all going to be really hard work I know, but I want it enough to put the effort in!

I'm quite tired but hopefully that all makes sense!
 
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