WAMT....what annoyed me today!

It doesn't matter if the vehicles are moving or not. The offence is/was entering the box junction when the exit was not clear.

You're not supposed to enter a box junction unless there is space on the other side that you can drive into (unless you're turning right - which she isn't). Highway code sec 3, 174.

IME most drivers either don't know about this or (most likely) choose to ignore it.
 
And as you know brake lights doesn't mean that the vehicle has stopped.
Especially automatics. which iirc buses are?

True but I was only presenting it as a possibility

It doesn't matter if the vehicles are moving or not. The offence is/was entering the box junction when the exit was not clear.

You're not supposed to enter a box junction unless there is space on the other side that you can drive into (unless you're turning right - which she isn't). Highway code sec 3, 174.

IME most drivers either don't know about this or (most likely) choose to ignore it.

Also true but the majority of drivers will anticipate if the vehicle in front has begun moving and there is space ahead of them.
 
Also true but the majority of drivers will anticipate if the vehicle in front has begun moving and there is space ahead of them.

Very true, but the law only sees in black and white - especially when there's revenue to be raised. ;)
 
It does look like the brake lights are on but there is a car to the right of the bus and the white car is in the middle so they could still be moving and looking to move behind said car.
The highway code states you mustn't cross the line and enter the box unless there is room on the opposite side for your vehicle to exit and clear the box, even if the traffic has started to move, you still have to wait until there is room.
 
The highway code states you mustn't cross the line and enter the box unless there is room on the opposite side for your vehicle to exit and clear the box, even if the traffic has started to move, you still have to wait until there is room.

Yeah, Trevor already said that and I'm not disagreeing.
 
Looks like the bus is at a stop to me and a car has pulled round it to the right which she could be about to do... Recon she's squeezing it in there...
 
Looks like the bus is at a stop to me and a car has pulled round it to the right which she could be about to do... Recon she's squeezing it in there...
And that is one reason I said that 2 images would be needed to prove guilt.
Not everything is black and white (y)
Well apart from zebra crossings


And Nuns, Nuns are black and white :D
 
Looks like the bus is at a stop to me and a car has pulled round it to the right which she could be about to do... Recon she's squeezing it in there...
If the bus has stopped, the driver will also get fined. The woman in the white SUV, needed to wait until there was a space big enough for her vehicle on the opposite side before she crossed the line and attempted to drive across the box.
 
If the bus has stopped, t

We can't tell that from the picture and there is a light above the brake light on the LH side
which could mean it is indicating to pull into a bus stop layby in which case it could just be slowing down

As it's on your local FB group, do you know which road this was and can perhaps shed some light on it ?
 
The woman in the white SUV, needed to wait until there was a space big enough for her vehicle on the opposite side before she crossed the line and attempted to drive across the box.

There is space to the right of the bus for her to go into, so if shes not stopped and heading there then shes committed no offence?

As @Cobra said, there should be 2 images.
 
There is space to the right of the bus for her to go into, so if shes not stopped and heading there then shes committed no offence?

As @Cobra said, there should be 2 images.
That space on the right doesn’t look large enough for her.
 
We can't tell that from the picture and there is a light above the brake light on the LH side
which could mean it is indicating to pull into a bus stop layby in which case it could just be slowing down

As it's on your local FB group, do you know which road this was and can perhaps shed some light on it ?
It's not actually a local road to us, I believe it's Barley Lane in Goodmayes, Redbridge, just off the A12.


Just checked google maps and it is Barley Lane, it looks like the bus is indicating to pull into a bus stop.
But the woman should still have waited until the other side of the box was clear enough for her vehicle before she crossed into it.
On normal box junctions it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but as this one has cameras, it is hard to bend the rules.
 
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It's not actually a local road to us, I believe it's Barley Lane in Goodmayes, Redbridge, just off the A12.


Just checked google maps and it is Barley Lane, it looks like the bus is indicating to pull into a bus stop.
But the woman should still have waited until the other side of the box was clear enough for her vehicle before she crossed into it.
On normal box junctions it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but as this one has cameras, it is hard to bend the rules.


Well if the bus was moving into the bus stop then she would have plenty of room to pull in behind
unless as in the picture below there were cars illegally blocking the bus

bl.jpg
 
Well if the bus was moving into the bus stop then she would have plenty of room to pull in behind
unless as in the picture below there were cars illegally blocking the bus

View attachment 294257
Yes, but there isn’t room for her behind the bus nor to the right of it (in my guess) and she does not appear to be pulling over to the right, unlike the car in the Google shot that is pretty clearly moving to the right :(.
You do seem very determined to defend this, I’m beginning to think it was really you in that car? :) :exit:
 
You do seem very determined to defend this, I’m beginning to think it was really you in that car? :) :exit:

Just think you cant say she's stopped in the box from that photo alone...

I got a bus lane ticket with one photo showing my wheel slightly into it, I contested it saying it doesnt show me in it.. They sent me a nice 5 page photo spread of me driving in it haha
 
Just think you cant say she's stopped in the box from that photo alone...

I got a bus lane ticket with one photo showing my wheel slightly into it, I contested it saying it doesnt show me in it.. They sent me a nice 5 page photo spread of me driving in it haha
But I think you are missing the point that has been made here earlier, that it doesn’t matter if she’s moving or if the other traffic is moving (in fact that makes the ‘offence’ clearer), there has to have been space for her on the other side when she entered the box. I expect you, like me, and a zillion others, just judge that there will be enough room with the traffic moving at a fast enough pace and so on to clear the box when you get there.
 
But I think you are missing the point that has been made here earlier, that it doesn’t matter if she’s moving or if the other traffic is moving (in fact that makes the ‘offence’ clearer), there has to have been space for her on the other side when she entered the box. I expect you, like me, and a zillion others, just judge that there will be enough room with the traffic moving at a fast enough pace and so on to clear the box when you get there.

Can't argue with that really.
 
Well if the bus was moving into the bus stop then she would have plenty of room to pull in behind
unless as in the picture below there were cars illegally blocking the bus

View attachment 294257
Even if the bus is moving, she still had to wait until there was room between the bus or adjacent vehicle and the box, before she drove into the box herself.
 
On Thursday something happened which has only happened once before.

As we drove down our road to home I spotted a cyclist on the pavement on the LHS and after we passed him he bounced into the road behind us. I slowed, indicated and started to turn into our drive and then stamped on the brake as he passed us on the wrong side of the road, squeezing between us and the pavement. That's only the second time anything like this has happened. Once someone in a car tried to do the same thing but didn't succeed.

I just don't understand the mentality of people who'll attempt to overtake a car indicating and indeed moving and turning right. Why not just pass us on the LHS as there was plenty of room? If I'd hit him I've no doubt at all that I'd be stuck with the cost of repairing the car and paying the increased premiums. As to the cyclist, I'm getting harder in my old age and whilst I'd have a pang of pain for his loved ones I really would care if that Kamikaze idiot killed himself whilst being a Kamikaze idiot. Darwin and all. I do wish that idiots like him could face some real legal consequences as I would if I drove a car in such an idiotic and clearly dangerous way.

Another little incident, yesterday. Whilst driving in a 30 limit yesterday which should really be a 10mph limit a youngster on a push bike swerved out in front of us when we were just feet from him. He then pulled a wheelie and proceeded to wobble about in front of us at slow speed. After a few seconds I sounded the horn, he looked back and wobbled to the side of the road, grinned and waved. What a brain dead child. Maybe I should blame the parents for not giving this zombie kid any road sense or supervision. Again, there really should be some legal consequences for someone for zombie Kamikaze children who if they know what they're doing at all seem to believe that being a Kamikaze zombie is fun, cool or funny. Dear Child, it isn't any of these things and when you behave like this you just look like an idiot.

Thanks for letting me get these things off my chest :D
 
“Zombi Kamikaze children’ :). Do they grow up (I use therm loosely) to be BMW drivers?
 
WAMT:

People who post on forums or other social media, thinking that they're talking to one or two people, not 60,000 members,,, then, realise the commercial implications of what they post and ask for it deleting. And, when it's not immediately removed, they blank out their posts themselves, and wonder why they're not exactly popular with the management afterwards.

FFS folks, there is no such thing as "a quiet corner on the internet" - it's a big old searchable soup of words, and everything you type in has a life of its own, and implications. In short, while we're a friendly place here, more or less, and with a couple of notable exceptions, really, don't publish anything here, that you wouldn't be happy reading in a newspaper...
 
What amuses me is that a few members have their business names as their log-ins and post some appalling cr@p in the parts of the forum that do show up on a search.
 
What amuses me is that a few members have their business names as their log-ins and post some appalling cr@p in the parts of the forum that do show up on a search.

I often wonder about that myself, but while ever they're not spoiling threads by posting then deleting I just let them burn their own house down :shrug:
 
On Thursday something happened which has only happened once before.

As we drove down our road to home I spotted a cyclist on the pavement on the LHS and after we passed him he bounced into the road behind us. I slowed, indicated and started to turn into our drive and then stamped on the brake as he passed us on the wrong side of the road, squeezing between us and the pavement. That's only the second time anything like this has happened. Once someone in a car tried to do the same thing but didn't succeed.

I just don't understand the mentality of people who'll attempt to overtake a car indicating and indeed moving and turning right. Why not just pass us on the LHS as there was plenty of room? If I'd hit him I've no doubt at all that I'd be stuck with the cost of repairing the car and paying the increased premiums. As to the cyclist, I'm getting harder in my old age and whilst I'd have a pang of pain for his loved ones I really would care if that Kamikaze idiot killed himself whilst being a Kamikaze idiot. Darwin and all. I do wish that idiots like him could face some real legal consequences as I would if I drove a car in such an idiotic and clearly dangerous way.

Another little incident, yesterday. Whilst driving in a 30 limit yesterday which should really be a 10mph limit a youngster on a push bike swerved out in front of us when we were just feet from him. He then pulled a wheelie and proceeded to wobble about in front of us at slow speed. After a few seconds I sounded the horn, he looked back and wobbled to the side of the road, grinned and waved. What a brain dead child. Maybe I should blame the parents for not giving this zombie kid any road sense or supervision. Again, there really should be some legal consequences for someone for zombie Kamikaze children who if they know what they're doing at all seem to believe that being a Kamikaze zombie is fun, cool or funny. Dear Child, it isn't any of these things and when you behave like this you just look like an idiot.

Thanks for letting me get these things off my chest :D


You better gird your loins, then, for the introduction of E-Scooters, which have been legalised since July as part of emergency measures to help people get around re Covid as public transport has been reduced. It's also an effort to reduce toxic vehicle fumes. These E-scooters are limited to 15.5mph ,low speed roads and only in cycle lanes and the rider must be 16 and over and the hire must be from licensed companies. The Swedish makers Voi are amongst a few companies who run the hire- schemes and they have said that anti-social behaviour re their scooters is worse in England than anywhere-else in Europe. No surprise there ,then. So much so that they are fitting them with registration plates front and rear even though it isn't required by law so that offenders can be traced. They are also employing a one-strike and you're out policy for those who misuse them and have hired extra staff to monitor the schemes. They have decided to suspend their service in Coventry after reports of users riding on pavements and in pedestrian areas and riding down one-way streets the wrong way and discarding them all over the city instead of taking them to designated locations. Not only Coventry but Middlesborough where another company was running a scheme and also suspended it after under-age users caused havoc in shopping centres and two teenagers were using one on the 70mph A19 and a shopping centre had to put up signs warning customers after reports of youngsters riding the scooters, some two-up and who were terrorising customers.

Two years ago Dockless electric bikers were withdrawn from Manchester and other cities in England after concern over vandalism and the bikes being thrown into canals.

The obvious question is why do we (in England specifically, according to the above) have a generation of kids that indulge in such anti-social behaviour...in general ? Of course, we don''t get to hear of the many youngsters who don't indulge in such anti-social activity. Anticipating any responses regarding lack of facilities for youth I'm well aware of the fact that activities that youngsters would usually get involved in are no longer available due to government cuts. I recall when the Blair government came to power they publically announced that they would stop the sale of school playing fields and council playing fields but they did. I've dug it out https://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/mar/30/schools.uk

2019 report re youth clubs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/07/youth-club-closures-young-people-risk-violence-mps

A fairly short read https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/25631-uk-tops-eu-league-of-antisocial-behaviour

A completely different attitude in Germany and it's been like this for years.


page1image282677056
Benchmarking German Report
Document produced by
Sport Structures Ltd


The headline paragraph from the 2011 report


It has been recognised that sport can contribute to social policy in Germany. Historically the German Sports Federation (Deutscher SportBund DSB) managed several sports development campaigns to increase mass participation under the brand Sport for all (Sport für alle). This started in the 1970s with keep-fit trails in parks and woods (Trimm-dich-Pfade). More recent campaigns have include Sport is the most fun in a club. Other health based campaigns have been undertaken by the DOSB and the Federal Ministry of Health. These have highlighted the connection between sport, physical activity and health, for example Sport For Health (Sport Pro Gesundheit) and Properly Fit (Richtig Fit), both of which offered courses and information on how to use sport to stay fit and healthy. The national action plan for a healthy diet and more exercise In Form intends to achieve a closer working relationship between health and sport. At present children and young people are a major target group for sports programmes incorporating health and fitness.


This extract from a long report re the Nordic countries has summed up my thoughts on the problem.

Institutional quality
Quality of government is another key explanation often provided for the high life satisfaction of Nordic countries, because in comparisons of institutional quality, the Nordic countries occupy the top spots along with countries such as New Zealand and Switzerland.[27] Indeed, several studies have shown that people are more satisfied with their lives in countries that have better institutional quality.[28] While most of the evidence is cross-sectional, Helliwell et al. examined changes in government quality in 157 countries over the years 2005-2012, finding that improvements in quality tend to lead to improvements in well-being.[29] Moreover, as regards changes in well-being, changes in government quality explained as much as changes in GDP.

Margaret Thatcher famously or infamously according to ones's view on these matters said..'there is no such thing as society"

“I think we have been through a period when too many people have been given to understand that when they have a problem it is government’s job to cope with it. ‘I have a problem, I’ll get a grant. I’m homeless, the government must house me.’ They are casting their problems on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

Aspects of that statement are true but I believe government should be funding, at least in part if not in full, activities that improve the well-being of it's citizens ,especially the young. It's well known that a healthy life-style contributes to a healthy mind too.
 
You better gird your loins, then, for the introduction of E-Scooters, which have been legalised since July as part of emergency measures to help people get around re Covid as public transport has been reduced. It's also an effort to reduce toxic vehicle fumes. These E-scooters are limited to 15.5mph ,low speed roads and only in cycle lanes and the rider must be 16 and over and the hire must be from licensed companies. The Swedish makers Voi are amongst a few companies who run the hire- schemes and they have said that anti-social behaviour re their scooters is worse in England than anywhere-else in Europe. No surprise there ,then. So much so that they are fitting them with registration plates front and rear even though it isn't required by law so that offenders can be traced. They are also employing a one-strike and you're out policy for those who misuse them and have hired extra staff to monitor the schemes. They have decided to suspend their service in Coventry after reports of users riding on pavements and in pedestrian areas and riding down one-way streets the wrong way and discarding them all over the city instead of taking them to designated locations. Not only Coventry but Middlesborough where another company was running a scheme and also suspended it after under-age users caused havoc in shopping centres and two teenagers were using one on the 70mph A19 and a shopping centre had to put up signs warning customers after reports of youngsters riding the scooters, some two-up and who were terrorising customers.

Two years ago Dockless electric bikers were withdrawn from Manchester and other cities in England after concern over vandalism and the bikes being thrown into canals.

The obvious question is why do we (in England specifically, according to the above) have a generation of kids that indulge in such anti-social behaviour...in general ? Of course, we don''t get to hear of the many youngsters who don't indulge in such anti-social activity. Anticipating any responses regarding lack of facilities for youth I'm well aware of the fact that activities that youngsters would usually get involved in are no longer available due to government cuts. I recall when the Blair government came to power they publically announced that they would stop the sale of school playing fields and council playing fields but they did. I've dug it out https://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/mar/30/schools.uk

2019 report re youth clubs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/07/youth-club-closures-young-people-risk-violence-mps

A fairly short read https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/25631-uk-tops-eu-league-of-antisocial-behaviour

A completely different attitude in Germany and it's been like this for years.


View attachment 294651
Benchmarking German Report
Document produced by
Sport Structures Ltd


The headline paragraph from the 2011 report


It has been recognised that sport can contribute to social policy in Germany. Historically the German Sports Federation (Deutscher SportBund DSB) managed several sports development campaigns to increase mass participation under the brand Sport for all (Sport für alle). This started in the 1970s with keep-fit trails in parks and woods (Trimm-dich-Pfade). More recent campaigns have include Sport is the most fun in a club. Other health based campaigns have been undertaken by the DOSB and the Federal Ministry of Health. These have highlighted the connection between sport, physical activity and health, for example Sport For Health (Sport Pro Gesundheit) and Properly Fit (Richtig Fit), both of which offered courses and information on how to use sport to stay fit and healthy. The national action plan for a healthy diet and more exercise In Form intends to achieve a closer working relationship between health and sport. At present children and young people are a major target group for sports programmes incorporating health and fitness.


This extract from a long report re the Nordic countries has summed up my thoughts on the problem.

Institutional quality
Quality of government is another key explanation often provided for the high life satisfaction of Nordic countries, because in comparisons of institutional quality, the Nordic countries occupy the top spots along with countries such as New Zealand and Switzerland.[27] Indeed, several studies have shown that people are more satisfied with their lives in countries that have better institutional quality.[28] While most of the evidence is cross-sectional, Helliwell et al. examined changes in government quality in 157 countries over the years 2005-2012, finding that improvements in quality tend to lead to improvements in well-being.[29] Moreover, as regards changes in well-being, changes in government quality explained as much as changes in GDP.

Margaret Thatcher famously or infamously according to ones's view on these matters said..'there is no such thing as society"

“I think we have been through a period when too many people have been given to understand that when they have a problem it is government’s job to cope with it. ‘I have a problem, I’ll get a grant. I’m homeless, the government must house me.’ They are casting their problems on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

Aspects of that statement are true but I believe government should be funding, at least in part if not in full, activities that improve the well-being of it's citizens ,especially the young. It's well known that a healthy life-style contributes to a healthy mind too.
Don't know if it was a privately owned scooter of a legally hired scooter, but one user rode his through a tunnel under the Mersey just recently.

There are several under 16's around locally who ride their own privately owned scooters on pavements and or roads. If they aren't on scooters, they are riding their bikes down roads as a group, trying to pull wheelies and generally being a nuisance.
I don't hold with the excuse they have nothing to do. We have two large parks as well as 3 country park areas, which the local youths do use, but instead of sport, groups of youths would rather use them for the legal and non legal drug taking.
At just after 10pm on Saturday night, just after the pubs had shut, a woman witnessed 4 lads, who she figured were 18-20yrs old, kicking door mirrors off cars parked at the roadside. From posts on our local facebook group, they did this in at least 3 roads including my own, I checked both our cars as well as neighbours cars yesterday afternoon, after I read the posts, but no cars that I could see were damaged, I assume the lads had walked past on the opposite side of the road.

As far as other European countries not suffering from such anti social behaviour, I would be intrigued to know who is dumping bicycles and mopeds in the canals in Holland. I have seen several videos of canals through towns having to be cleared.
 
Men, not lads :(.
Definitely not men. I think there are a few people around the area, that would dearly love to make them bitches.
If they are men, you can guarantee they did similar stuff when they were younger too. My wife has worked at a local primary school for almost 20yrs, some kids are trouble makers at that young an age, it isn't any surprise they continue into adulthood.
 
Similar problems in my area to what Neil @nilagin said (except for the car damage). We have e-scooters, illegal motorbikes, and mobility scooters all being used to drive people off pavements, terrorise park users and break all sorts of motoring laws, with nary a copper to be seen ever. Not to mention every third car having dodgy lights or exhaust or both so probably not MoT'd, taxed or insured.
 
Similar problems in my area to what Neil @nilagin said (except for the car damage). We have e-scooters, illegal motorbikes, and mobility scooters all being used to drive people off pavements, terrorise park users and break all sorts of motoring laws, with nary a copper to be seen ever. Not to mention every third car having dodgy lights or exhaust or both so probably not MoT'd, taxed or insured.
So, is the answer more coppers? Maybe on foot? I never, so far, see anything like that where I live :). About once a month (?) two police officers (sometimes pcso’s) walk up the road, together, chatting, so completely pointless. At least one should be on either side of the road and interact with residents, pedestrians, who are not numerous anyway :(. It’s not a dangerous area, so why two?
 
I don't see e scooters every day but I do see them regularly being used on pavements and why not? There's no one to enforce any rules and any member of the public attempting to point users at the road (and highway code?) will just be abused.

As to why? I blame the parents and their parents on down the line for not teaching their children any values, limits or morals. Also wider society which seems to instill a creeping culture of entitlement without responsibility or fear of any consequences as there almost certainly won't be any. A bigger issue than e scooters in my area is motor bikes but again the same cause, people who haven't been given any sense of how to behave behaving how they want with no consequences.
 
I don't see e scooters every day but I do see them regularly being used on pavements and why not? There's no one to enforce any rules and any member of the public attempting to point users at the road (and highway code?) will just be abused.
The problem is, that only the hired e scooters are legal and can be legally used as they have registration plates and the hire fee includes insurance. Privately owned e scooters can only be used on your own land or private land with permission. So if you see one, chances are it isn't legal and shouldn't be used at all on public roads, pavements or land.
 
I couldn't say what the policing solution is, I'm not close enough to that (used to be closer to organised and international criminality but that is very different). I just remember being pulled over frequently as a teenager in my old Ford Anglia for a duff sidelight or blowing exhaust, and that doesn't seem to happen round here, if anywhere, now. Ditto cycling on pavements, was largely prevented by the presence of coppers on foot and council wardens with bylaws to enforce in parks - neither of which I see.
I gave a school lecture a year ago on Sociology (A level course) with the subject of Crime and Policing, in which I referenced the phrase "Policing by Consent", often used by politicians and chief constables; the teachers never mind pupils had not heard of it and didn't know what it meant, so I explained a bit and we discussed. I don't think there is Consent any more, except in middle class suburbs. Policing seems to me to have been emasculated and is treated accordingly by the great unwashed.
 
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