Unsolved murders in the UK

[simonblue]

What is the point of this thread?
Person A gets murdered. It's investigated (and for once Garry is right, everything is thrown at it), but like all crimes sometimes there simply isn't the evidence to convict and no matter how much you throw at it, there will never will be. In some others, depending on what forensic evidence could have been gathered at the time, there may be a chance in the future. But not all evidence that might be usable in the future can be preserved. For example, DNA evidence didn't exist 100 years ago, no one could have foreseen it, so preserving evidence that could or might contain that wouldn't happen.

All of that is common sense. As to be honest is the answer to the question.

I was watching a program on an cold case,this one being 24years old the local police had investigated,it had been investigated as an cold case file with no luck,then out of the blue its was picked up by an noise abatement officer who look into it in his own time,and he cracked it in 2weeks,it was just a little something both investigation had overlook,a name on the list that nobody had bother to interview.
So their always a chance.

 

[simonblue]

Yes. The ripper murders have been a great fascination to me since I was a lad. Very interesting once you start digging in, not just the conspiracy theories but a lot of peripheral stuff to, including the families of the victims some of whom can be traced from then through til present. Loads of info out there.

Did you watch the last program,when they looked into the first witness to the first murder,came up with a very good case against him

 

[BRASH]

Serious question. Do you think that any descendents of the victims alive today, would still feel some sort of comfort from getting the kind of closure of being told who murdered their relatives after so long?

Edited to add... Same question to everyone else.

Yes I honestly do. I know if I researched my family tree and found some long gone relative had been murdered I'd feel a lot better if I knew the person/s responsible had been brought to justice or if sufficient evidence had come to light after their deaths that a conviction was likely.

 

[MartynK]

Serious question. Do you think that any descendents of the victims alive today, would still feel some sort of comfort from getting the kind of closure of being told who murdered their relatives after so long?

Edited to add... Same question to everyone else.

I haven't a clue. The Ripper murders took place nearly 130 years - about 5 generations - ago. You could probably trace some of the victims descendants and ask them, if it's really all that important to you.

 

[Alastair]

Yes I honestly do. I know if I researched my family tree and found some long gone relative .. ..

If you thoroughly research your family tree and don't find an incidence of murder, manslaughter or very serious crime I suspect your family tree will be the exception rather than the rule. The incidence rate doesn't have to be very high, because family trees generally get very wide very quickly.

 

[Nikon_Nick]

I haven't a clue. The Ripper murders took place nearly 130 years - about 5 generations - ago. You could probably trace some of the victims descendants and ask them, if it's really all that important to you.

I was just interested in peoples thoughts. It matters not one bit to me.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Some people seem to need complete closure, others seem to be able to just move on with their lives and accept that bad things happen.

I had a connection with someone who was murdered last year, she was a local prostitute and alcoholic who seems to have made a complete mess of her life. She and her boyfriend invited themselves to stay with an elderly and vulnerable neighbour, and between them they spent his pension, sold his furniture and took over his life. I became aware, I involved the police and they left. She then formed a new relationship with someone who we now know has a long history of violence, and he battered her to death.

It was one of those squalid little murders that didn't make the headlines, he was arrested at the scene and is now serving life.

Strange then that I should feel slightly guilty, on the totally illogical basis that if I hadn't intervened, she would probably not have met the man who killed her. http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....r-life-for-brutal-murder-of-partner-1-7013900

 

[simonblue]

Some people seem to need complete closure, others seem to be able to just move on with their lives and accept that bad things happen.

I had a connection with someone who was murdered last year, she was a local prostitute and alcoholic who seems to have made a complete mess of her life. She and her boyfriend invited themselves to stay with an elderly and vulnerable neighbour, and between them they spent his pension, sold his furniture and took over his life. I became aware, I involved the police and they left. She then formed a new relationship with someone who we now know has a long history of violence, and he battered her to death.

It was one of those squalid little murders that didn't make the headlines, he was arrested at the scene and is now serving life.

Strange then that I should feel slightly guilty, on the totally illogical basis that if I hadn't intervened, she would probably not have met the man who killed her. http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....r-life-for-brutal-murder-of-partner-1-7013900

I think you did the best by your neighbor,no way could you have predicted what was going to happen to her.

 

[big soft moose]

If you thoroughly research your family tree and don't find an incidence of murder, manslaughter or very serious crime I suspect your family tree will be the exception rather than the rule. The incidence rate doesn't have to be very high, because family trees generally get very wide very quickly.

mum did our family tree a few years back

We had one relative deported to botany bay for stealing sheep, and one executed for treason

 

[MartynK]

mum did our family tree a few years back

We had one relative deported to botany bay for stealing sheep, and one executed for treason

Yip. Go back a few centuries - if you can - and most families will find something like this. There are several reasons, and the ones that spring to mind are:

1. Family trees expand rapidly as the generations pass, as Alistair pointed out. Families were often larger in the past, and this also increases the multiplier effect.
2. The legislature (parliament) was dominated by the privileged, landowning, class and English law was biased towards protecting property rights.
3. Many trivial crimes were classed as capital offences during the period when the Bloody Code was in force, until the early C19th, and the threat of the death penalty was used to maintain social control.
   
4. Investigations were cursory, if they were actually carried out at all, and the legal process was different. It could be very difficult, and just about impossible, for the poor to mount any sort of meaningful defence unless they could produce a character witness of "good" birth and social standing. William Garrow played a major role in legal reforms which led to something closer to modern practice.
   
5. Treason, in particular, was a somewhat flexible concept and often amounted to little more than incurring the King's wrath. Powerful aristocrats were also vulnerable to this charge in the Middle Ages and early modern period.

 

[Alastair]

1. Family trees expand rapidly as the generations pass, as Alistair pointed out. Families were often larger in the past, and this also increases the multiplier effect

Just to clarify.. my personal experience is that family trees get very wide very quickly but they tend not to get very deep unless you get exceptionally lucky with a private archive. My own family tree is about 90% confirmed and 10% conjecture once you get to my great-great-grandfather (mid-C19), for the next generation back it's reversed, about 10% confirmed and 90% conjecture and I doubt very many trees are much different. Unless you adopt the genealogy system adopted by (in my experience) a lot of Americans that use the "about the right name, about the right date - good enough" approach.

Just from my own researches using the British Newspaper Archive, it's clear that the list of unsolved murder deaths is incomplete - but it's not a list that could realistically ever be complete. It's also a resource I can very highly recommend. I have a cluster of Victorian photographers on my tree and newspaper reports have cast a lot of light on the business and social dealings of the most prominent - filling in a lot of gaps between the official records of births, marriages and deaths.

 

[realspeed]

Ok everyone has had a chance to have a pop at me and slag me off, so now it is my turn I think to reply.

When you own son is badly beaten up so he can hardly walk with blood pouring off him and his friend lands up in hospital to have a metal plate put into his cheek which was smashed to smitherens, I would have expected to police to respond to a 999 calls quickly . This happened while camping with permission on a field. I don't consider a gang of thugs ( lot older) beating up two young lads very funny, they were not even provoked into attack as my son and friend were asleep in the tent at the time.

Did the police react? no not until 24 hours later when the hospital contacted them, our 999 calls was totally ignored. Now if it was the person who took the call at fault or not, to me it is all the police force.

Apart from the shock of seeing the two lads in such a bad state it really rubbed salt into the wound the way the police could not care less. That really hurt seeing their attitude at the time.

So my respect for the police is pretty low.

My bet is anyone here would feel the same way although I do now acknowledge this may not be typical of all police officers

We did find out the main offender skipped the country as he was already wanted and when he came back to the UK the police contacted us saying this thug was on a roof, trying to break, in and fell through and killed himself a few months later. At least justice was done in the end


Sorry to mods and admin and members but it is something I had to get off my chest.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

@realspeed

So why not put this in the original post rather than an irrelevant link?

Did you make an official complaint at the time?

Not having a pop, just asking.

 

[big soft moose]

Just a thought but if both lads were beaten too badly to give a statement , what exactly were the police supposed to do in the first 24 hours ? - also did you actually ask for the police when you called 999 ? (as most people would request an ambulance - and 999 operators don't automatically pass the details on to the other services)

Also you say here that your respect for the police is pretty low - which is understable - but it does also explain the bias in the first post where the police couldn't really have done much about any of those murders , which is why they were unsolved

 

[realspeed]

you missed the poinT entirely, THEY DID NOT EVEN RESPOND TO A 999 CALL, yes we did make an official complaint and all we got was the matter has been looked into.
Anyway I have said my peace so let the subject rest now please

 

[big soft moose]

you missed the poinT entirely, THEY DID NOT EVEN RESPOND TO A 999 CALL, yes we did make an official complaint and all we got was the matter has been looked into.
Anyway I have said my peace so let the subject rest now please

Did you request the police on the 999 call ? - if you asked for an ambulance , as most people would have done, of course the police didnt respond

 

[ghoti]

you missed the poinT entirely, THEY DID NOT EVEN RESPOND TO A 999 CALL, yes we did make an official complaint and all we got was the matter has been looked into.
Anyway I have said my peace so let the subject rest now please

Sorry if I'm confused, but it sounds from your original post that your son & friends were camping, were beaten up and then taken to hospital. You then said that you made the 999 call. When was the 999 call to the police made? After the incident? If the incident wasn't ongoing, of course they wouldn't respond, as it's not an emergency. 999 is not for reporting crimes after they've happened; it's for reporting emergencies as they are happening.

 

[viv1969]

Ok everyone has had a chance to have a pop at me and slag me off, so now it is my turn I think to reply.

When you own son is badly beaten up so he can hardly walk with blood pouring off him and his friend lands up in hospital to have a metal plate put into his cheek which was smashed to smitherens, I would have expected to police to respond to a 999 calls quickly . This happened while camping with permission on a field. I don't consider a gang of thugs ( lot older) beating up two young lads very funny, they were not even provoked into attack as my son and friend were asleep in the tent at the time.

Did the police react? no not until 24 hours later when the hospital contacted them, our 999 calls was totally ignored. Now if it was the person who took the call at fault or not, to me it is all the police force.

Apart from the shock of seeing the two lads in such a bad state it really rubbed salt into the wound the way the police could not care less. That really hurt seeing their attitude at the time.

So my respect for the police is pretty low.

My bet is anyone here would feel the same way although I do now acknowledge this may not be typical of all police officers

We did find out the main offender skipped the country as he was already wanted and when he came back to the UK the police contacted us saying this thug was on a roof, trying to break, in and fell through and killed himself a few months later. At least justice was done in the end


Sorry to mods and admin and members but it is something I had to get off my chest.

So in reality, the incident in question has nothing to do with unsolved murders whatsoever.