UK Population

big soft moose said:
or he could have inadvertently shot one of his colleagues, put his next three rounds through the ceiling and then been gunned down while wondering why he missed -your attitide to firearms tends to suggest that the closest you've been to a gun is via your xbox or tv screen
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Used to do target rifle shooting in a rifle club.
 
ST4 said:
Used to do target rifle shooting in a rifle club.
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and you think this qualifies you to win a shoot out with an armed intruder with hand guns ? - my money would be on you forgetting to take the safety off, not cocking the pistol, or shooting yourself in the foot (or shooting a family member or passer by by accident), or having the gun taken from you

The average joe in the street would struggle to hit a barn the first time they used their handgun in anger - and the chances are good that they wouldn't get a second chance
 
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big soft moose said:
and you think this qualifies you to win a shoot out with an armed intruder with hand guns ? - my money would be on you forgetting to take the safety off, not cocking the pistol, or shooting yourself in the foot (or shooting a family member or passer by by accident), or having the gun taken from you

The average joe in the street would struggle to hit a barn the first time they used their handgun in anger - and the chances are good that they wouldn't get a second chance
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And what special training has armed intruder got?
 
ST4 said:
And what special training has armed intruder got?
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well if hes a jihadist he'll have been trained

if hes a usual run of the mill criminal he probably won't have a lot, but at least he'll know how to load,cock, aim and fire it, and it probably won't be his first time .. also being a criminal he won't have the same reservations about shoot/not shoot that the householder will - he'll also be better prepared and won't have just woken up confused and alarmed (that assumes he exists at all - in many cases he'll be great aunt flo getting a glass of water before being gunned down by her paranoid and sociopathic firearms obsessed nephew)

Personally I don't thing we need a firearm in every home at all , but if your policy was instituted at the very least it should be accompanied by rigorous training so people have some idea how to use a firearm safely
 
My suggestion Steve is that you move to Montana - not only to they share your views on gun ownership but they also have an unlimited speed limit on the interstate - and being wide open spaces with relatively few people you'll have a lower chance of stupidly gunning down an innocent passer by.
 
ST4 said:
50% is better than 1%. If someone has a gun and you don't, the odds are 1% in your favour. A level playing fields better than the odds stacked against you.
Guns have a place in every home in the UK IMHO.
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Your'll like this Steve, My son is very fond of saying guns are like condoms, you don't always need one, but if you do, and don't have one,
that's you in the s*** ;)

simon ess said:
Of course, they would be the very last person who should be allowed to own a gun.
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Just like Thomas Hamilton I presume?
the authorities were told on several occasions that he was unsuitable. And yet was granted a firearms licence on appeal.
System failure at its very worse!
Realising their mistake, and ignoring the Cullen report, that cost a million or so, decided to make it political race to see who could ban them first.

Steve Smith said:
Tea is the best thing this country has! (and we have to get that from other countries).
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Then we really are in trouble!

big soft moose said:
Personally I don't thing we need a firearm in every home at all , but if your policy was instituted at the very least it should be accompanied by rigorous training so people have some idea how to use a firearm safely
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Those of us that owned handguns pre ban, had to pass a stringent test, once we had our licences, to shoot on a range, personally, and few others in the same club were trained by a Met fire arms trainer,
that would be full bore pistol, and section 5 shotgun inc. solid slug.

As an aside when I was shooting regularly I could draw and hit the bullseye in about 0.75 seconds.
Yes training does work ;)
 
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Steve Smith said:
And back to the subject of immigration, people have migrated ever since they existed.

Our problems started when we let those pesky Saxons in!


Steve.
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Oh man, everyone keeps on picking on us. Bloody racists you are, the lot of you :P ;)
 
is the original topic purely about immigration?
how much have medical advances contributed, better working conditions (in this H&S gone mad world) and general promiscuity leading to more births out of marriage?
 
Cobra said:
Just like Thomas Hamilton I presume?
the authorities were told on several occasions that he was unsuitable. And yet was granted a firearms licence on appeal.
System failure at its very worse!
Realising their mistake, and ignoring the Cullen report, that cost a million or so, decided to make it political race to see who could ban them first.
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Just to be pedantic, there were no objections to the issue of his certificate, the complaints against him came later, and were ignored.
Then, on renewal, the police Sgt wanted to refuse his renewal on the grounds that he was no longer a member of a club and hadn't bought ammo for many years, therefore had no good reason to continue to own guns - but he was over-ruled by an idiot who thought he knew better.
big soft moose said:
and you think this qualifies you to win a shoot out with an armed intruder with hand guns ? - my money would be on you forgetting to take the safety off, not cocking the pistol, or shooting yourself in the foot (or shooting a family member or passer by by accident), or having the gun taken from you

The average joe in the street would struggle to hit a barn the first time they used their handgun in anger - and the chances are good that they wouldn't get a second chance
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Yep, shooting at paper targets on a rifle range would be no help at all in the real world. Trouble is, nearly everyone gets their "knowledge" about firearms from watching the telly. Not that I would be any better, my training consists of doing everything safely, so I would really struggle to point a gun at a human and pull the trigger, even though I would have a very good chance of hitting the target if I could bring myself to actually do it. IMO the only people who can really use a gun against people are the people who are trained to do it, i.e. the military, with the police as a very poor second.
 
dejongj said:
Oh man, everyone keeps on picking on us. Bloody racists you are, the lot of you :p ;)
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Shouldn't you be out there tending the Tulip fields or sticking your finger in a Dyke or something?
:p
 
@ST4 Don’t be misled Steve.

If you move to Montana believing the interstate is unlimited speed you’ll get nicked again.

Rural interstate currently limited to 75mph for cars…rising to 80mph in October

There are no public roads in the US on which speeds are unlimited.

A highway is being constructed in Texas which will have a rural limit of 85 mph…that’ll be the highest in the US.

(Incidentally, Texas also has the highest private gun ownership in the contiguous US) :-)
 
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World population is not the problem, its the huge economic inequalities. Take any measures you like, strengthen your borders and fences in your country but they will still come. FFS I read recently about an immigrant found on the roof of a house apparently having fallen from the undercarriage of a plane those that are so desperate that they would take those risks will try and overcome any hurdles.
 
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jakeblu said:
World population is not the problem, its the huge economic inequalities. Take any measures you like, strengthen your borders and fences in your country but they will still come. FFS I read recently about an immigrant found on the roof of a house apparently having fallen from the undercarriage of a plane those that are so desperate that they would take those risks will try an overcome any hurdles.
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A dead immigrant.
A second clinging to the same plane was recovered at the airport in deep hypothermia.
 
new2me said:
is the original topic purely about immigration?
how much have medical advances contributed, better working conditions (in this H&S gone mad world) and general promiscuity leading to more births out of marriage?
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My thoughts when starting the thread were simply to discuss the reported figure for the UK's population as I was sceptical of it's accuracy.

I might have guessed it would digress to involve immigration and gun ownership!
 
Cartus said:
My thoughts when starting the thread were simply to discuss the reported figure for the UK's population as I was sceptical of it's accuracy.

I might have guessed it would digress to involve immigration and gun ownership!
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To be fair, I wouldn't have thought it possible to discuss population without migrant numbers being a part of it.
 
Cartus said:
My thoughts when starting the thread were simply to discuss the reported figure for the UK's population as I was sceptical of it's accuracy.

I might have guessed it would digress to involve immigration and gun ownership!
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Well, immigration isn't exactly off topic is it?
And as for gun ownership, our ST4 likes to include that in every thread...
Possibly because, with a conviction for dangerous driving, he is never going to be a gun owner :)
 
viv1969 said:
To be fair, I wouldn't have thought it possible to discuss population without migrant numbers being a part of it.
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I don't necessarily agree that immigration should be raised but can easily understand why it has been.

Whilst on the subject, let's not forget about emigration - (323,000) last year.
 
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Cobra said:
As an aside when I was shooting regularly I could draw and hit the bullseye in about 0.75 seconds.
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but could you do it while subject to an enormous adrenaline dump with live rounds coming your way ? ( I doubt they trained you for that)
 
big soft moose said:
but could you do it while subject to an enormous adrenaline dump with live rounds coming your way ? ( I doubt they trained you for that)
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Who know's? but I bet I'd be a damned sight faster than a huge percentage of people that had never shot at moving targets.
 
Cobra said:
Who know's? but I bet I'd be a damned sight faster than a huge percentage of people that had never shot at moving targets.
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Well, I shoot at least 100 and often 200 at very small moving targets every week (clays), they move fast, in very different directions, at very different distances and are often visible for a very short time - and I get annoyed with myself if I hit less than 80% - but they aren't shooting back, and I don't kid myself that I'd get 80% + if they were, even though I'd really need to get 100%...
 
Cobra said:
Shouldn't you be out there tending the Tulip fields or sticking your finger in a Dyke or something?
:p
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Plenty of dykes here :) I know exactly the place to go ...
 
Cartus said:
I don't necessarily agree that immigration should be raised but can easily understand why it has been.

Whilst on the subject, let's not forget about emigration - (323,000) last year.
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True, yet net immigration was still a quarter of a million. Just imagine if we didn't have those that emigrated ;)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, I shoot at least 100 and often 200 at very small moving targets every week (clays), they move fast, in very different directions, at very different distances and are often visible for a very short time - and I get annoyed with myself if I hit less than 80% - but they aren't shooting back, and I don't kid myself that I'd get 80% + if they were, even though I'd really need to get 100%...
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at least with a shotgun you'd have a reasonable chance :LOL: tbh its about 25 years since I had any firearms training, so I doubt I'd be any better - which was the core point that if you want to prepare for an intruder in the house you'd be far better off fitting decent locks, a burglar alarm, and secure locks on an internal room door (like on the bedroom) then locking yourself in and calling 999 than you would confronting an armed intruder whether you have a gun yourself or not

also so far we've only looked at the consequences of failure (ie getting shot while acting like a penis) , almost as severe are the consequences of success - you have to wonder what Steve thinks will happen after hes confronted an armed intruder and shot him dead in self defence .... its likely that the police won't be patting him on the back and saying 'good groups bro' - being arrested and prosecuted for manslaughter if far more likely.
 
ST4 said:
Are you unable to grasp that 50 is greater than 1? Really, if that's how simple you are I pity you.
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I understand the difference in the numbers Steve. But the numbers (as others have pointed out) are a fantasy aren't they?
Because there's a virtually zero chance that a gunman will enter my home to kill me, and if I did have a gun to defend myself I'd probably fail.

As I pointed out in the example of Reagan (who was at risk of attack - unlike you or me) and was surrounded by armed and trained experts and he still got shot. That simple example shows how ridiculous the notion of 'defence' is.

I'm ok with the notion that you like guns. But you need no more explanation than 'I like guns', anything you add to that to justify the notion we all should have one is stupid and can be proved to be stupid with facts and statistics.

If I was unkind and didn't like you, I'd say you definitely should own a gun, because your chances of being shot increase massively as a gun owner (though tbf the biggest part of that is suicide).
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
In what way would we end up like Ukraine?
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I think the reasoning will be that Ukraine was the last country to give up its nuclear weapons, but the situation in Ukraine is incomparable for numerous reasons.
 
Keith W said:
Why?
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Because, in the eyes of the police, he has demonstrated that he is a danger to the public, highly irresponsible and has scant regard for the laws.
People have been refused certificates for far less, including a number of "ordinary" speeding convictions spread over time"
 
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