TV Questions Maybe I Can Help.

Barry L. said:
Thanks Stumac, i only offered advice on a subject i know a little about but never had to experience anything like this and can not understand what it was that antagonised people so much. Maybe my choice of wording might have been better, i don't know?
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Your wording was absolutely fine , as I say you were polite for long enough ;-)

"The UKs friendliest forum " LOL
 
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fabs said:
Neither does name calling. He's a long sanding and respected member of this forum and, relatively speaking, you just walked through the door so rein it in!
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After all that has been said, and the post of what you call a long standing and respected member and you are defending it?

I really don't know what the hell is going on on here lately. But the way long standing members have been treating this "newbie" is utterly shameful.
 
dejongj said:
After all that has been said, and the post of what you call a long standing and respected member and you are defending it?

I really don't know what the hell is going on on here lately. But the way long standing members have been treating this "newbie" is utterly shameful.
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JP, I haven't defended anything. My post was directly aimed at what Barry called Alastair. I'm getting sick of explaining this over and over again.

As for the rest of the thread, the only report we've had from it was for Barry's tirade.
 
fabs said:
JP, I haven't defended anything. My post was directly aimed at what Barry called Alastair. I'm getting sick of explaining this over and over again.

As for the rest of the thread, the only report we've had from it was for Barry's tirade.
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But surely you as a moderator are aware of the context of the posts and could clearly see Alastair's offensive and antagonising post and yet you came down on me for calling him a prick, and excusing his trolling behavior with he is a long standing member.

I am sure this is or has been debated on the moderator's forum. Man would i have liked to have seen that.
 
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fabs said:
JP, I haven't defended anything. My post was directly aimed at what Barry called Alastair. I'm getting sick of explaining this over and over again.

As for the rest of the thread, the only report we've had from it was for Barry's tirade.
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And if you stopped at "...neither is name calling." Then I would fully agree. Unfortunately you didn't, and in context of the rest of the thread I found that pretty sickening.

It's pretty telling to me if the only rtm that is launched is against Barry L. Or to put it in Dutch un f*****g believable. Friendliest forum my arse.
 
Barry L. said:
But surely you as a moderator are aware of the context of the posts and could clearly see Alastair's offensive and antagonising post and yet you came down on me for calling him a prick, and excusing his trolling behavior with he is a long standing member.
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No Barry, I did not excuse his behaviour as he is a long standing member, that was purely aimed at your comment claiming that he has no place on the forum. As I've said, twice now, your initial response was to challenge what he'd said which was fine. There was no need to then post personal abuse towards him. If you were that upset by what he said, it would have been better to use the forum's Report facility.

To give a football analogy, a player goes in for the tackle, the player tackled takes exception and reacts violently. Who do you think gets the yellow card?
 
dejongj said:
And if you stopped at "...neither is name calling." Then I would fully agree. Unfortunately you didn't, and in context of the rest of the thread I found that pretty sickening.

It's pretty telling to me if the only rtm that is launched is against Barry L. Or to put it in Dutch un f*****g believable. Friendliest forum my arse.
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I'm really not sure about what part of the rule regarding moderating decisions being not up for public discussion or debate people are struggling with.
 
fabs said:
No Barry, I did not excuse his behaviour as he is a long standing member, that was purely aimed at your comment claiming that he has no place on the forum. As I've said, twice now, your initial response was to challenge what he'd said which was fine. There was no need to then post personal abuse towards him. If you were that upset by what he said, it would have been better to use the forum's Report facility.

To give a football analogy, a player goes in for the tackle, the player tackled takes exception and reacts violently. Who do you think gets the yellow card?
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Sorry that does not cut it with me, the guy new what he was doing, you have taken no action but to reprimand me after obviously seeing his post and the way it was worded and continue to do so.
 
Totally incorrect analogy , it goes like this ....
Player get tackled by every other member of the other team one after another, player questions why he was tackled to be tackled by the whole team all over again so he pulls the middle finger at them and gets a yellow card . And the best part is he didn't even have the ball to begin with
 
fabs said:
I'm really not sure about what part of the rule regarding moderating decisions being not up for public discussion or debate people are struggling with.
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Well I wasn't talking to you as a moderator, I was talking to you as a fellow human being. But fair enough if you want exert that power and turn it into that then I will not stand by silently when I see some very wrong treatment. I will not turn my head away.
 
Barry L. said:
Sorry that does not cut it with me, the guy new what he was doing, you have taken no action but to reprimand me after obviously seeing his post and the way it was worded and continue to do so.
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I reprimanded you once purely for the name calling, you're the one who seems to want to drag it out

stumac said:
Totally incorrect analogy , it goes like this ....
Player get tackled by every other member of the other team one after another, player questions why he was tackled to be tackled by the whole team all over again so he pulls the middle finger at them and gets a yellow card . And the best part is he didn't even have the ball to begin with
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No, absolutely correct analogy. As I keep saying until I'm blue n the face, my post was regarding just the name calling, you seem to want to bring in the rest of the thread into it which you seem to be so offended by yet haven't reported a single post of it to the moderating team

dejongj said:
Well I wasn't talking to you as a moderator, I was talking to you as a fellow human being. But fair enough if you want exert that power and turn it into that then I will not stand by silently when I see some very wrong treatment. I will not turn my head away.
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I was trying to keep this off the thread which is the whole purpose of the rule but it would appear that some would rather get the torched and pitchforks out.

Honestly, person calls another person names, moderator tells person not to call people names, drama queens everywhere!
 
fabs said:
I reprimanded you once purely for the name calling, you're the one who seems to want to drag it out



No, absolutely correct analogy. As I keep saying until I'm blue n the face, my post was regarding just the name calling, you seem to want to bring in the rest of the thread into it which you seem to be so offended by yet haven't reported a single post of it to the moderating team



I was trying to keep this off the thread which is the whole purpose of the rule but it would appear that some would rather get the torched and pitchforks out.

Honestly, person calls another person names, moderator tells person not to call people names, drama queens everywhere!
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Not for the second it is not because of that at all. Exactly as per my first reply to you on this. Must admit I'm getting rather tired of that now as it is a important distinction. It was totally uncalled for. And now you have the audacity to call me and others drama Queens. Flipping heck what's wrong with you?
 
Heaven help us, it's just words no one has been injured, just don't read it if it offends your sensitivities.

Bit like the telly, if you don't like it turn it off, both sides are having a go here, are you men/women or mice

Here is another football analogy, the referees decision is final
 
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tijuana taxi said:
Heaven help us, it's just words no one has been injured, just don't read it if it offends your sensitivities.

Bit like the telly, if you don't like it turn it off, both sides are having a go here, are you men/women or mice

Here is another football analogy, the referees decision is final
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What an idiotic comment. If it's "just words" why did you or one of you bullying gang cry foul when he used words you did not like?
Pursuing your football analogy, no, it's more like after all kicking the referee comes along and puts the boot in too.
 
So back to the subject
Many, many tv owners are happily watching their tv in complete ignorance of any calibration or setup, however are happy in this.

Barry says it makes a difference and I could believe this, he also says i also talk to many around the world who agree with me that an accurate image looks stunning. but I suggest this is but a small fraction of tv owning people. I can understand someone whose interest is in having a stunning AV setup, it's similar to people talking about audio setups, that improvement to the nth degree so they can hear every nuance. However the majority of people listen to music on their phone, through cheap earpieces, of compressed media.

Same with BluRay, despite what you may think about the quality, it's a compressed medium, using Mpeg, some information is thrown away. The trouble is that 4k is 50Mb per frame uncompressed. I can tell you on a full cinematic projector comparing compressed and uncompressed footage, the difference is huge. However thats unpractical for all but a few cinemas, post production houses, so a compromise is reached with the media delivery.

So Cobras correct in his assumption that TV for most is a 'toy' a heavily used but disposable item. Most people buy by size and picture quality in Curry's, get it home, play with the settings once and leave it. And thats fine for them.
Some like to take it to the nth level and adjust for that perfect setup, thats fine for them too

So ignoring the first post which was slightly confusing, what this really all boils down to is that Barry likes his AV, suggests that your viewing experience may improve if you tweak settings on your TV, has experience in tweaking settings to his acceptable standard and if anyone wishes he can offer advice.
 
Blu ray might be a compressed media but how that compression is applied is also critical and in this instance you should see all the information originaly produced.

Tweaking of settings to my liking is not the case. I calibrate to the international standards set by the film and tv industry.

Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic.☺
 
Barry L. said:
Blu ray might be a compressed media but how that compression is applied is also critical and in this instance you should see all the information originaly produced.
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Bluray video encoding is based on H264/Mpeg4, compressing down to a max of 50Gb for a dual layer disk. Thats a lot of information discarded from the original source and I can tell you on a 20 or 30 foot cinema screen there is a huge difference in blacks and contrast levels. There's a lot of detail discarded but in the range that most people wouldn't notice. After all it's entertainment, you're supposed to be caught up in the media, not the technicalities.

It is all a compromise though for the home market and delivery. Now we're only only talking Bluray, what about the other media delivery methods, satellite, streaming, catchup services, all have different compression, quality etc.

Barry L. said:
Tweaking of settings to my liking is not the case. I calibrate to the international standards set by the film and tv industry.
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By this I mean settings to your liking, which in this case is to the standards you've decided to use. Others may be perfectly happy, or prefer, a standard mode on the TV. Many others of course won't know any better ;)
 
If done correctly by the compressionist/author you will see no downgrade in PQ from the original source.

Yes you will get a much inferior pq from the likes of satelite as the copression being used is more often than not very poor compared to blu ray.
 
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We'll just have to disagree on that. You will see a downgrade in quality. That's like comparing jpeg and raw images.
As most footage is shot in 4K these days (or 5K for Epic Reds) and downres'd/compressed to 1080P, uncompressed 4K you'd get about 40 secs on a dual dvd

I'll post up some images later as they are at home of the professional editing equipment I used to use (and setup, photograph etc) :D
 
If it's scanned at 4k resolution then compressed to 1080p if done correctly you wiĺl see an further improvement in PQ. If you are watching a 4k blu ray on a uhd system again you will see a futher improvement depending on size of screen and distance away for viewing.

I will see if i can get one of the best authors/compressionists in film transfer to post here a little later as he can explain this better than me.
 
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You seriously come here to enjoy observing "both sides having a go"?

Sorry but I have better things to do with my leisure time.
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Where did I say enjoying, no idea why you even thought thats what I was alluding to

I meant both as bad as each other, six of one half a dozen of the other, handbags at dawn etc etc

Just been enjoying my leisure time walking at the RSPB reserve over the road, only came back because it's so bloody hot. 31c here yesterday, even hotter today if this morning is anything to go by, might even have to watch the telly until it cools down later.
 
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Another bit of advice. Make sure you pay no more than say £5 for an HDMI cable as they are all the same.;)
 
tijuana taxi said:
Where did I say enjoying, no idea why you even thought thats what I was alluding to

I meant both as bad as each other, six of one half a dozen of the other, handbags at dawn etc etc

Just been enjoying my leisure time walking at the RSPB reserve over the road, only came back because it's so bloody hot. 31c here yesterday, even hotter today if this morning is anything to go by, might even have to watch the telly until it cools down later.
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For Christs sake. Move on!
 
Barry L. said:
Now you did say you had your monitor calibrated and i think i asked why?
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I don't remember the question, but I'll answer it,
yes my monitor is calibrated, because the images I produce are important to me.
And I can't offer reasonable advice or critique to others, unless it is.

My TV, like yours is a personal or maybe family thing, I'm happy with the results, I see on the screen.
Its not as though a thousand or so people are looking at my screen. (and may or may not be seeing variations)
So with that in mind, its irrelevant what anyone else thinks ( to my TV screen) .
 
So then do you not agree that when viewing a film or tv program in the knowlege it is being viewed as intended and looking the best it possibly can on your tv would add to your viewing experence and enjoyment.

Could you not have left it uncalibrated and just said i am happy with the image i have and gone with that instead.
 
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Barry L. said:
So then do you not agree that when viewing a film or tv program in the knowlege it is being viewed as intended and looking the best it possibly can on your tv would add to your viewing experence and enjoyment.
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As above, It looks great to me and that's all that matters. As above there are not 100's / 1000's of people looking at my TV, or criticising the film that's on, because the colour *maybe* half a shade out.

Barry L. said:
Could you not have left it uncalibrated and just said i am happy with the image i have and gone with that instead.
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Not at all, for the reasons I give above. (and again quoted below)
Cobra said:
yes my monitor is calibrated, because the images I produce are important to me.
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Cobra said:
And I can't offer reasonable advice or critique to others, unless it is.
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Plus I spend far more time on a photography & related things, than watching TV.
I bet my TV viewing amounts to no more than 4 hours a week, and that'd be a blue ray or something new on "Now TV"
 
Cobra said:
As above, It looks great to me and that's all that matters. As above there are not 100's / 1000's of people looking at my TV, or criticising the film that's on, because the colour *maybe* half a shade out.


Not at all, for the reasons I give above. (and again quoted below)




Plus I spend far more time on a photography & related things, than watching TV.
I bet my TV viewing amounts to no more than 4 hours a week, and that'd be a blue ray or something new on "Now TV"
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No but the film you are watching on that tv was produced with a set of standards in place and thousands will be viewing that. As i said though if a moving image quality is unimportant to you that is ok. As that is your personal choice.

So you apreciate that image accuracy is important if not to you maybe to others.
 
Barry L. said:
Blu ray might be a compressed media but how that compression is applied is also critical and in this instance you should see all the information originaly produced.

Tweaking of settings to my liking is not the case. I calibrate to the international standards set by the film and tv industry.

Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic.☺
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AVC and HEVC are both lossy compression schemes - you can not see all of the original information.

Byker28i said:
We'll just have to disagree on that. You will see a downgrade in quality. That's like comparing jpeg and raw images.
As most footage is shot in 4K these days (or 5K for Epic Reds) and downres'd/compressed to 1080P, uncompressed 4K you'd get about 40 secs on a dual dvd

I'll post up some images later as they are at home of the professional editing equipment I used to use (and setup, photograph etc) :D
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Most high end drama and film, yes, most other genres, no.

Barry L. said:
Another bit of advice. Make sure you pay no more than say £5 for an HDMI cable as they are all the same.;)
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Not really, the impedance tolerance for UHD1p120 is quite tight.

Barry L. said:
So then do you not agree that when viewing a film or tv program in the knowlege it is being viewed as intended and looking the best it possibly can on your tv would add to your viewing experence and enjoyment.

Could you not have left it uncalibrated and just said i am happy with the image i have and gone with that instead.
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BT.709 reference monitors go up to about 100 nits and are viewed in dim rooms, under domestic viewing environments, you'd need to adjust contrast, brightness and gamma.
 
HDMI is a series or 0 and 1's you either receive the signal in full or not at all.

You would need to calibrate to the environment you are viewing day or night mode.

As i said yes you will if the compressionist has performed their job correctly.

EDIT.

I now see what you guys are getting at, yes there will be some loss of detail between the transfer from film to Blu Ray, but hopefully that will be limited by the person doing the compression. As is said here we would need a 2TB hard drive to store all the information otherwise.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2099754-all-about-video-compression.html
 
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Barry L. said:
Another bit of advice. Make sure you pay no more than say £5 for an HDMI cable as they are all the same.;)
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Now this bit I agree with. Its digital, it either gets there or it doesnt, if it doesnt the error correction will pick it up and fix it anyway.
 
Barry L. said:
So you apreciate that image accuracy is important if not to you maybe to others.
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Anyone that is really interested in a subject, what ever that maybe, will always ( well should anyway) always want the best they can get and / or afford.
So yep, & I've never said otherwise :)
 
Cobra said:
Anyone that is really interested in a subject, what ever that maybe, will always ( well should anyway) always want the best they can get and / or afford.
So yep, & I've never said otherwise :)
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But this is what i can not really understand, we have an interest in photography and getting an accurate picture and yet when the image then becomes a moving one that then becomes a non issue for some and anything goes.
 
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Barry L. said:
But this is what i can not really understand, we have an interest in photography and getting an accurate picture and yet when the image then becomes a moving one that then becomes a non issue and anything goes.
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But for photography we are making our own images in a style that we like. If we only ever view our own images on a screen, never print them or share them then even calibration of our monitors wouldn't be needed. If we do print them, share them or view others work then calibration of our monitors becomes important.

When I watch TV/Bluray I want the picture to be how I want it to look, it really doesn't matter to me how you or anyone else wants it to look. If I don't like it I'll change it.
 
Barry L. said:
But this is what i can not really understand, we have an interest in photography and getting an accurate picture
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The word you missed from that is still.

Barry L. said:
and yet when the image then becomes a moving one that then becomes a non issue for some and anything goes.
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Of course its not a case of "anything goes" we all know what a crap picture / reception looks like, and wouldn't stand for it.
As long as the image imitates real life then that's' fine I cannot understand the obsession with all the fine tweaks, which probably to many, ( including me) would go un noticed anyway.
This is a photography forum and people seek to get the best from their still images.

If we were obsessed with moving images then we would be on AV forums and the like.
Just the same way as I discuss falconry on a falconry forum, sure I'll mention it here, and post a few images of my birds,
but by and large the membership, just isn't interested in the fine arts, finer points, weight control, sharpness ( yes that is a Falconry term)
feather moulting sequence, gramme for gramme protein v Carbs v input / output and so much more....
 
Cobra said:
The word you missed from that is still.


Of course its not a case of "anything goes" we all know what a crap picture / reception looks like, and wouldn't stand for it.
As long as the image imitates real life then that's' fine I cannot understand the obsession with all the fine tweaks, which probably to many, ( including me) would go un noticed anyway.
This is a photography forum and people seek to get the best from their still images.

If we were obsessed with moving images then we would be on AV forums and the like.
Just the same way as I discuss falconry on a falconry forum, sure I'll mention it here, and post a few images of my birds,
but by and large the membership, just isn't interested in the fine arts, finer points, weight control, sharpness ( yes that is a Falconry term)
feather moulting sequence, gramme for gramme protein v Carbs v input / output and so much more....
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This is an open discussion part of the forum for i am guessing interests other than photography, so i started a thread on AV and how to improve PQ , thinking that those who were interested in getting started would frequent it.
Some maybe never heard of AVF and the likes (although i did link to them), and those who were uninterested would simply have chosen another thread as this one was of no interest to them. In much the same way as the car threads etc are of no interest to me.
 
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Barrysprout said:
But for photography we are making our own images in a style that we like. If we only ever view our own images on a screen, never print them or share them then even calibration of our monitors wouldn't be needed. If we do print them, share them or view others work then calibration of our monitors becomes important.

When I watch TV/Bluray I want the picture to be how I want it to look, it really doesn't matter to me how you or anyone else wants it to look. If I don't like it I'll change it.
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That is your choice and what you are happy with, but i did not start this thread to discuss why we have no interest in calibration and getting the best out of their TV's and PJ's etc i started it for those who have, yet here we are with the only ones posting in the most part are those who have no interest and seem take pride in that and go out of their way to say so, go figure.
 
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My reply was a direct response to your earlier post. You said you didn't understand so I tried to help by giving my opinion.
 
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