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Tia Sharp: police find body at home of grandmother
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The police don't have to be defensive about anything. They arrested Hazell almost immediately on suspicion of murder which gave them all the power they needed to search the house anyway whilst he was in custody.
As for ripping up floorboards, that would depend on the impressions they gained of Hazell during interview and what evidence they had to further implicate him. I've seen far less convincing suspects than he was to be fair, but that's just going from the TV interview. I still fancied him for it after seeing the interview but had more of an open mind tbh, although the "Babe" stuff left me feeling uneasy.
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I heard a police officer interviewed on LBC by James Whale yesterday. He was asked about searching the premises in these circumstances and he said that if the missing girl had been any younger they could have gone for a full house search from the outset, but for that to happen with this girl needed reasonable cause to suspect she was in there.
Perhaps after examining the hundreds of hours from video camera footage from various places and seeing no trace of her the police then had such reasonable cause.
Perhaps after examining the hundreds of hours from video camera footage from various places and seeing no trace of her the police then had such reasonable cause.
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ok, in the uk, everyone is innocent until proven (or admitting guilt) guilty in a court of law but... on the evidence we, the public have so far from the news etc, Hazell is looking pretty much as guilty as a puppy sitting by a pile of dog poo on the carpet.
Alone the night before she disappeared and body found in the loft... I am sure it's not going to take an awful lot of brain power to work out who did what to who and when.
As I mentioned before, one of the police dogs came out of the house carrying its "reward toy." this would suggest it had found something, and they are trained to show it in a subtle way. My guess is dog found / sniffed something, gave whatever sign - sitting down etc.... and then later the police acted upon this and found her.
We'll never understand why it was done, just hoping her demise was swift.
Alone the night before she disappeared and body found in the loft... I am sure it's not going to take an awful lot of brain power to work out who did what to who and when.
As I mentioned before, one of the police dogs came out of the house carrying its "reward toy." this would suggest it had found something, and they are trained to show it in a subtle way. My guess is dog found / sniffed something, gave whatever sign - sitting down etc.... and then later the police acted upon this and found her.
We'll never understand why it was done, just hoping her demise was swift.
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Yes - the police have now publicly apologised for not finding the body and have stated the body was in the same location during two previous searches in which it was subsequently found. Fair enough - that's all they can do, although I'd guess someone is getting a *******ing that will remove strips of skin!
I think we're reading probably far too much into the assistance part of it - trying to carry a 12 year old's body up a ladder and through a small loft opening would be well nigh impossible I'd think without some assistance.
I think we're reading probably far too much into the assistance part of it - trying to carry a 12 year old's body up a ladder and through a small loft opening would be well nigh impossible I'd think without some assistance.
Donnie
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Aye, well they are unlikely to indicate "blindly stupid and incompetent" I suspect, which is closer to the truth
Bernie174
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Linton
They often, depending on the mutt and the handler, get the toy when they finish work as well. Sometimes the same toy they get when they find, and sometimes a different one, depends on the dog but I think you're reading too much into that.
The problem here isn't police per sae, it's powers of police. On the one hand most of those who are howling outrage are the same people who are outraged by proxie when they think police search a photographer without powers.
Unfortunately, the powers to search are limited, missing kid or not. Yes, you can read into a refusal by the guardians of a child to allow a search what you like, but thats not evidence. A search in those circumstances is by permission only. There's no obligation to allow it, so thats the end of the matter.
It matters not one way or the other in this case, she was undoubtedly dead from then start, nothing's been lost. Police didn't kill her, either she died through natural causes, which is still a possibility, or she was killed, if its the former, it happens, the latter, then it's the person who killed to blame.
As for not searching every nook & cranny, then blame yourselves for that, Parliament passed the legislation, not police officers.
CT
Chummy wasn't arrested, he was taken to the police station to make a statement. There's a big difference. Because he'd not been arrested a proper search couldn't take place against the wishes of the guardians.
They often, depending on the mutt and the handler, get the toy when they finish work as well. Sometimes the same toy they get when they find, and sometimes a different one, depends on the dog but I think you're reading too much into that.
The problem here isn't police per sae, it's powers of police. On the one hand most of those who are howling outrage are the same people who are outraged by proxie when they think police search a photographer without powers.
Unfortunately, the powers to search are limited, missing kid or not. Yes, you can read into a refusal by the guardians of a child to allow a search what you like, but thats not evidence. A search in those circumstances is by permission only. There's no obligation to allow it, so thats the end of the matter.
It matters not one way or the other in this case, she was undoubtedly dead from then start, nothing's been lost. Police didn't kill her, either she died through natural causes, which is still a possibility, or she was killed, if its the former, it happens, the latter, then it's the person who killed to blame.
As for not searching every nook & cranny, then blame yourselves for that, Parliament passed the legislation, not police officers.
CT
Chummy wasn't arrested, he was taken to the police station to make a statement. There's a big difference. Because he'd not been arrested a proper search couldn't take place against the wishes of the guardians.
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I'm sure the report I read initially said he'd been arrested - but if he wasn't then fair enough - there was no power to search.
The fact is though that two (or was it three?) searches were conducted which could only have been with the householder's consent and that was a perfectly normal way to proceed anyway in these circumstances. How difficult can it be to search a loft space and perhaps stick your head over the top of the water tank to check that out - yet miss a cadaver two or three times? It smacks of some individual half heartedly going through the motions.
The police per se aren't to blame for the embarrassment over this it's down to the individual or individuals who were entrusted with those searches. I'd have expected to be for the high jump were it me, and I'm sure you would have too.
You can't defend the indefensible.
Bernie174
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CT
No he was mearly making a statement. I am not sure, having avoided the news as its full of national sports afternoon not news at the moment how many searches took place, I think it may have been 3 though. The first would have been a quick look more concerned with looking to see if shes hiding in a cupboard. You'd be surprised how many apparently missing kids are, and how little interest some guardians have in looking! Mutley went for a sniff, and come up with nothing, because if he had that would have been the cue to rip the place to bits at that point, not wait.
I don't yet know what there is to be defended, I don't know the circumstances so it's difficult to blame police for anything as things stand at the moment. On the face of it, it seems difficult to understand for some, but the simple version peddled by the press is rarely the full story. consequently, what is clear is that you're looking at something in isolation, not at the full facts.
To put this into context, there are a large number of kids that are reported missing every day 99.99% of who turn up within hours. Thats what this started as. Witnesses, 80 odd I understand reporting seeing her. We don't know where the body was in the loft, I've heard a couple of stories, neither of which if true would make things as cut and dry as you assume them to be.
On the other side of things, would you be happy if the first thing that happened when a kid was reported missing was the police dismantled the place where the child went missing from? I somehow doubt it, but hey if Parliament want to change the law to allow that, then thats fine but it's not the current situation. You'd also have to bare in mind that in 99.99% of cases, that ripping to bits will be pointless.
No he was mearly making a statement. I am not sure, having avoided the news as its full of national sports afternoon not news at the moment how many searches took place, I think it may have been 3 though. The first would have been a quick look more concerned with looking to see if shes hiding in a cupboard. You'd be surprised how many apparently missing kids are, and how little interest some guardians have in looking! Mutley went for a sniff, and come up with nothing, because if he had that would have been the cue to rip the place to bits at that point, not wait.
I don't yet know what there is to be defended, I don't know the circumstances so it's difficult to blame police for anything as things stand at the moment. On the face of it, it seems difficult to understand for some, but the simple version peddled by the press is rarely the full story. consequently, what is clear is that you're looking at something in isolation, not at the full facts.
To put this into context, there are a large number of kids that are reported missing every day 99.99% of who turn up within hours. Thats what this started as. Witnesses, 80 odd I understand reporting seeing her. We don't know where the body was in the loft, I've heard a couple of stories, neither of which if true would make things as cut and dry as you assume them to be.
On the other side of things, would you be happy if the first thing that happened when a kid was reported missing was the police dismantled the place where the child went missing from? I somehow doubt it, but hey if Parliament want to change the law to allow that, then thats fine but it's not the current situation. You'd also have to bare in mind that in 99.99% of cases, that ripping to bits will be pointless.
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It's Lynton not Linton
(it's there, big and blue on the left!!)Don't recall where I ever mentioned powers to search.... :shrug:
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gramps
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Police yesterday admitted "human error" and apologised to Tia's parents for the delay in finding the body - seems like an admission that it was a clear case of not doing it right.
Report
1st search understandably not found as they were not primarily looking for a body, 2nd search possibly understandable again but 3rd search
Report
1st search understandably not found as they were not primarily looking for a body, 2nd search possibly understandable again but 3rd search
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It's Lynton not Linton
Don't recall where I ever mentioned powers to search.... :shrug:
I think he's confused you and donnie (its the avatar - and ive done that myself in the past)
ding76uk
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Bernie174 said:
The police have issued a statement saying they cocked up, not the press. I am sure though that no one cocked up on purpose. Unfortunately the same outcome is left. I am not always the biggest fan of police actions, but in a case like this I am certain anyone involved in the searches will be having a horrible time thinking about how they could have done more, even though they probably couldn't and, the last thing they need is the public sticking the boot in.
I am surprised there are so many unsolved murders in this country though with the TP crime squad.
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Yeah I can see how that might go
" we're very sorry we didnt find your daughters body sooner , of course had your step dad - you know the guy you used to go out with before he dumped you for your mum - not hidden it in the water tank, quite possibly with your mums knowledge, and had family members not then lied to us about the last time they saw her , we'd probably have found it earlier... "
If an individual officer made a mistake or wasnt competent then fair enough he should be warned/disciplined , but the human error displayed by the force is considerably smaller than that displayed inside the family both in leaving a 12 year old in the charge of someone with previous for dealing drugs and possession of a machette , and by those family members who then appear to have tried to help him escape the consequences
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Garry Edwards
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Bernie,
You're defending the indefensible yet again. There really is nothing to defend here, the police have admitted 'human error' and apologised. I think that any reasonable person would accept that these things happen and move on.
If a person resident at that property had in fact been arrested then the police had powers of search. It's clear (to everyone else) that even if they didn't have the power in this situation then they had permission from the person in control of the premises, which I assume to be the grandmother, otherwise they couldn't have carried out the first two searches - and yet they failed to find anything. This indicates that someone was lazy and didn't do his or her job properly, pretty well confirmed by the police apology.
So, why are you still defending the actions (or inactions) of the police? It seems to me (and everyone else) that the police did everything right, but were let down by one of their staff.
You're defending the indefensible yet again. There really is nothing to defend here, the police have admitted 'human error' and apologised. I think that any reasonable person would accept that these things happen and move on.
If a person resident at that property had in fact been arrested then the police had powers of search. It's clear (to everyone else) that even if they didn't have the power in this situation then they had permission from the person in control of the premises, which I assume to be the grandmother, otherwise they couldn't have carried out the first two searches - and yet they failed to find anything. This indicates that someone was lazy and didn't do his or her job properly, pretty well confirmed by the police apology.
So, why are you still defending the actions (or inactions) of the police? It seems to me (and everyone else) that the police did everything right, but were let down by one of their staff.
gramps
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I don't imagine anyone is saying that anyone other than the perpetrators of this terrible act are those responsible for it ... you note I say "act" as at this moment in time we do not know how Tia died, much less if anyone murdered her, or if so which of the three people arrested in connection with the case is/are responsible and for whatever 'act'.
Despite that it is a serious failure not to have found the body in three searches - the individual officers concerned (of course not the whole force) bear responsibility for that error.
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It's Lynton not Linton
Don't recall where I ever mentioned powers to search.... :shrug:
Its grey on my screen
gramps
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I agree that we don't know in a legal sense - but she clearly didnt fly into the water tank by magic, and its pushing the bounds of credibility that anyone in the house didnt notice a large corpse being dragged into the attic and put in a water tank.
My suspicion (and I know this is only theoretical) is that hazell , being a volatile guy with a history of violence, hit or pushed her not meaning to kill her , she died and then gran and neighbour helped him hide the body and lied to the police about it because " well you know its a real shame but he didnt like mean it an that, and the police would think he did cos of his record innit and theres no point in him going down for just a mistake..."
That would probably resolve to less than a murder charge - but it would still do no one involved any credit.
I'd like to think that its less likely that gran and neighbour would have covered up for him if he intentionally murdered her - although anything is possible. (and while its possible that either gran or neighbour was the principal and hazell helped cover up - the police clearly don't think so)
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of course its easier just changing the theme being used to view the forum.... personally i prefer seeing you lot in grey 
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Come on you're just green with envy
its true, I think we should be a nice coral colour, but even a mention of anything that might be close to pink gives Chris the collywobbles anyway, I suppose we should stop the light heartedness and get back to the subject in hand, though I am refraining from commenting to be honest, as no one yet has all the facts....
gramps
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Her Gran boyfriend has been charged with murder,all very sad
Sad to think of such a young girl meeting a violent end :shake:
Considering all the stuff written in this thread, I believe I am due an apology from TP especially a certain Mod accusing me of trolling when far worse has continued in the so called chest thumping stakes. I have continued to view the thread without further contribution due to the fact of being fed up of certain people unable to distinguish of what a discussion is.
What happened to the respect for Tia part, has the time limit expired for that?
I don't expect an apology though.
What happened to the respect for Tia part, has the time limit expired for that?
I don't expect an apology though.
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So you've decided to hijack this thread for a gripe with the moderating team?
If you have an issue with the moderating of this site, use the Contact Us button as per site rules. :rules:
Not an attack, violence is not my nature. I had the same done to me by a mod but is that different?
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Attack? Were have I said "attack". Read my post agan.
I apologise, see it is not hard to do. (by the way, I mean it too)
Bernie174
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Garry
You don't know anything more than what's in the press. This is the same press who are shown time and time again to be grossly inaccurate.
The rest of what you've said, is assumption and opinion. For example do you know what state the body was in? So you can't know what sort of container it was in. Because you can't know that, you can't know if it was somewhere a live child could be, remember this was for the first few days at least a missing person, not a murder.
A large number of people claim to have seen her, well, proves my point about witness reliability from our last discussion, so why would Police search in say, a water cistern. To assume that is lazy or incompetence I'm afraid shows your over use of hindsight, nothing more.
As for an ACPO apology, it's meaningless, ACPO have spent the last 15 years appologising for everything from Slavery to global warming. It's interesting, and again wouldn't be something you'd know, that there are far more cases where they have apologised and a subsequent inquiry has exonerated police of any blame than there are the opposite. Just take my word for it, it is an automatic default position for the Met Senior management.
In short, no I am not defending the indefensible, I am not bowing to the press and allowing them to do my thinking for me. I am not drawing conclusions based on flimsy or non existent evidence. Nor am I assuming the wrong doing without the inconvenience of any investigation. All of those things are exactly what you are doing.
Garry Edwards
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I'm doing nothing of the sort. I fully accept that the press often make it up as they go along, I also fully accept that, for the most part, all I know is what I have seen/heard in the media.
But with one exception - the police apology. This wasn't guessed at, extrapolated, exaggerated or fabricated by the press. It was a carefully worded statement issued by the police. Therefore, there is nothing for you to defend. Not that you need to anyway, as I said before, the police as an organisation seem to have done everything right, it is very likely to be just an individual who has done something wrong, or failed to do his or her job properly.
What sickens me about this thread is the enthusiasm that many seem to have for apportioning blame. They blame the grandmother, her boyfriend, her daughter, her neighbour and the police. All without any evidence or knowledge. All that really matters is that a child has lost her life and a family has lost her.
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that may be because the boyfreind has been charged with murder, and gran and neighbour arrested for assisting an offender :bang:
its very sad that a young girl has died (although i would note that young children die every day - just not always in the uk), but i can't feel too sorry for the dsfunctional family that put her in harms way in the first place.
Would you leave your daughter in the care of someone with previous for drug dealing, and possessing an offensive weapon ?
Garry Edwards
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All three may be guilty, but as we know very well, the fact that someone has been charged doesn't mean that they will be convicted. As of now, the only people who know whether they are guilty or not is them, not the police and not the public.
The family may not meet your standards (or mine) assuming that press reports are in fact true, but they have still lost their child.
27% of all UK males aged between 18 and 45 have at least one criminal conviction for an indictable offence.
All that I'm saying here is that we shouldn't judge them. We have a Court system for that.
The family may not meet your standards (or mine) assuming that press reports are in fact true, but they have still lost their child.
27% of all UK males aged between 18 and 45 have at least one criminal conviction for an indictable offence.
That's a pretty high proportion of the general male population, but it's probably true to say that the percentage is likely to be much higher in some parts of society and much lower in other parts of society. I'm not justifying any decisions that the family may or may not have made, but if it's normal to have a criminal record then maybe it's also normal to disregard it.
All that I'm saying here is that we shouldn't judge them. We have a Court system for that.
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Just to clarify a point - this apology by a Met Commander was nothing at all to do with ACPO - the Association Of Chief Police Officers.
ACPO consists of Chief Constables from various forces who meet at intervals for dominoes, cribbage and a few jars. Then when the strippers have left, they sit down and try to thrash out common policies to standardise the approach to various offences throughout the country.
ACPO consists of Chief Constables from various forces who meet at intervals for dominoes, cribbage and a few jars. Then when the strippers have left, they sit down and try to thrash out common policies to standardise the approach to various offences throughout the country.