The virus. PPE. Part 1

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KitsuneAndy said:
So you think Saddams statue should have been voted on and removed and disagree with it being toppled then?

They did try and get it removed, or at least an explanation put up next to it explaining his history. But the black people who found it offensive were outvoted by the white people who didn't see the harm in it. It does belong in a museum, where it can be used to educate on both pain caused while he earned his money and the good he did with that money. Not just on a plinth in celebration.
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But where is the line drawn? Churchill, explorers in the past, other business leaders? Surely someone is tehn within their rights to pull down statues of Churchill and the like?
 
Donnie said:
(My Bold above. )
The reason I have pointedly brought up this issue with cambsno and then with your statement to me
.. is the fact it was NOT clear at all that either of you differentiated any one group at all. ie. both of your global statements inherently included everyone, black white pink yellow male female slaves and non slaves.
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It was also clear that i did not make an attempt to include all!
 
Anyway back om topic... they reckon that china hospitals were getting busier in August and more searches for the symptoms too... so maybe its been here a lot longer than we think!
 
sphexx said:
Sort of relevant to that:
“Coronavirus may have been in Wuhan in August, study suggests”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...y-have-been-in-wuhan-in-august-study-suggests
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I saw that one - interesting, but highly circumstantial. There could be lots of other explanations for those observations. I suppose someone in China must have done the obvious thing and tested archival samples taken in the months before the outbreak for SARS-CoV-2. But the results may be too politically sensitive to release.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Pathogens, be they virus, fungus or bacteria, are opportunistic. If they find a new host they'll exploit it.
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Looks like coronaviruses have had more opportunities recently, though. There don't seem to have been any epidemics of novel coronaviruses in the 20th century, but we've seen three new lethal coronas in the last 20 years, and another in pigs. Habitats are shrinking, which may push up animal (e.g. bat) population densities and perhaps select for 'generalist' viruses that are good at jumping between species that have been forced together, while growing and increasingly well-connected human populations are living closer to these habitats.
 
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Retune said:
I saw that one - interesting, but highly circumstantial. There could be lots of other explanations for those observations. I suppose someone in China must have done the obvious thing and tested archival samples taken in the months before the outbreak for SARS-CoV-2. But the results may be too politically sensitive to release.
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Yes, though I thought it was interesting in pointing out the new sorts of ways to get early alerts to diseases :). I think there have been others but can’t recall just now.
 
cambsno said:
..... slavery was an accepted practice and although not acceptable in todays times, was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time, .......
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cambsno said:
It was also clear that i did not make an attempt to include all!
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Look, there's no point scoring in this, so Im preemptively apologising to those that think it is and to the mods who may raise an eyebrow too.

Its very clear from the words you wrote that you did in fact by default include everyone, it's there in black and white and that and other examples of other posts here and elsewhere simply show a lack of appreciation on the part of those affected by racism as an ingrained culture, simple as that.

And to ensure there is some link between this and the virus its interesting how so many have said for so long that the "virus doesn't discriminate" (commonly by Boris I have to say) and yet ironically, in one sense it certainly does in the figures showing the higher proportion of BAME victims to white victims. :-(
 
Retune said:
I saw that one - interesting, but highly circumstantial. There could be lots of other explanations for those observations. I suppose someone in China must have done the obvious thing and tested archival samples taken in the months before the outbreak for SARS-CoV-2. But the results may be too politically sensitive to release.
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It does seem very speculative, I can’t believe they would base their conclusion on busy hospital car parks and internet searches for coughs and diarrhoea, surely they must have more than that! Could China even hide the coronavirus outbreak for nearly 5 months we’ve seen how rapidly it spread here and around the world in three months not even a very closed China could hide that number of infections and likely 10’s of thousands of deaths. Sounds like dodgy science to me. It seems it hasn’t yet been peer reviewed, so I suppose time will tell.

Talking of dodgy science, the Guardian has an article by Peter Daszak regarding the study we we’re discussing a few days ago, which originally claimed it was ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ the virus was man made. Seems pretty damning to me. Apparently they didn’t do their research :)

And the claim in the earlier version of this paper to have proven “beyond reasonable doubt that the Covid-19 virus is engineered” was removed in the later version. This claim relied on an insertion in the genetic code for the spike protein of the virus, the place where the virus locks into our own cells. But the discovery of another novel bat coronavirus in southern China, very closely related to Sars-CoV-2, that includes a similar insertion shows this can evolve naturally.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/09/conspiracies-covid-19-lab-false-pandemic
 
jakeblu said:
It does seem very speculative, I can’t believe they would base their conclusion on busy hospital car parks and internet searches for coughs and diarrhoea, surely they must have more than that! Could China even hide the coronavirus outbreak for nearly 5 months we’ve seen how rapidly it spread here and around the world in three months not even a very closed China could hide that number of infections and likely 10’s of thousands of deaths. Sounds like dodgy science to me. It seems it hasn’t yet been peer reviewed, so I suppose time will tell.

Talking of dodgy science, the Guardian has an article by Peter Daszak regarding the study we we’re discussing a few days ago, which originally claimed it was ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ the virus was man made. Seems pretty damning to me. Apparently they didn’t do their research :)

And the claim in the earlier version of this paper to have proven “beyond reasonable doubt that the Covid-19 virus is engineered” was removed in the later version. This claim relied on an insertion in the genetic code for the spike protein of the virus, the place where the virus locks into our own cells. But the discovery of another novel bat coronavirus in southern China, very closely related to Sars-CoV-2, that includes a similar insertion shows this can evolve naturally.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/09/conspiracies-covid-19-lab-false-pandemic
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I suspect transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in its current form can't have been very widespread as early as August, or pneumonia clusters would have been identified before December in China, and we would have seen cases earlier in the west.

One other interesting suggestion about the spike protein is that the version with the 'insertion' might in fact be the ancestral form, and the otherwise most closely related bat virus may have lost it by recombination.
 
Sharma seems to be outdoing Hancock in being useless!! Did not answer questions given, boasted again about supporting business when failing to address issues about the leisure industry and would not give any reason why we are following a 2m rule when most others (and WHO) recommend less.
 
cambsno said:
Sharma seems to be outdoing Hancock in being useless!! Did not answer questions given, boasted again about supporting business when failing to address issues about the leisure industry and would not give any reason why we are following a 2m rule when most others (and WHO) recommend less.
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Why do you go on about the 2m rule so much?
Is it really that much of a problem, personally don't like being much nearer than that in more normal times.
You keep quoting most others, well for a start not Spain who were badly affected and have improved rapidly
Netherlands also who are doing quite well and the US is the imperial equivalent at 2 yards
What's the rush apart from greedy business people wanting to jam more people in their premises
 
I don't think it's about business people being greedy. It's about survival for a lot of them..
Maintaining a 1m distance will be more practical than 2m for restaurants, cafes and bars and therefore may be more likely to work than trying to set up their premises to maintain a 2m limit.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Why do you go on about the 2m rule so much?
Is it really that much of a problem, personally don't like being much nearer than that in more normal times.
You keep quoting most others, well for a start not Spain who were badly affected and have improved rapidly
Netherlands also who are doing quite well and the US is the imperial equivalent at 2 yards
What's the rush apart from greedy business people wanting to jam more people in their premises
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The fact they keep banging on about follow the science yet WHO and other countries seem to have science that suggest less than 2m is fine.

And its not about greedy business people, its about people keeping businesses and jobs going. Just one view and hopefully too extreme https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52932962 - but 5m unemployed? Netherlands is less than us BTW

  • 1m distancing rule - China, Denmark, France, Hong Kong, Lithuania, Singapore
  • 1.4m - South Korea
  • 1.5m - Australia, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal
  • 1.8m - US
  • 2m - Canada, Spain, UK

How will leisure keep going if you need to follow a 2m rule? This will be tens of thousands of restaurants, pubs, entertainment venues which we will lose (and generally when we lose a pub its gone forever) - unless the government are going to keep funding such businesses but where will that money come from. Its about getting the country back on track financially.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
I don't think it's about business people being greedy. It's about survival for a lot of them..
Maintaining a 1m distance will be more practical than 2m for restaurants, cafes and bars and therefore may be more likely to work than trying to set up their premises to maintain a 2m limit.
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If IBS wants it so badly then I have to think its financially motivated.
Lots of people have had to adapt and consequently suffered financially, why do others think they are exempt
cambsno said:
The fact they keep banging on about follow the science yet WHO and other countries seem to have science that suggest less than 2m is fine.

And its not about greedy business people, its about people keeping businesses and jobs going. Just one view and hopefully too extreme https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-52932962 - but 5m unemployed? Netherlands is less than us BTW

  • 1m distancing rule - China, Denmark, France, Hong Kong, Lithuania, Singapore
  • 1.4m - South Korea
  • 1.5m - Australia, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Portugal
  • 1.8m - US
  • 2m - Canada, Spain, UK

How will leisure keep going if you need to follow a 2m rule? This will be tens of thousands of restaurants, pubs, entertainment venues which we will lose (and generally when we lose a pub its gone forever) - unless the government are going to keep funding such businesses but where will that money come from. Its about getting the country back on track financially.
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Ok then, 1.5m seems to be a fair compromise, but I bet they would still complain and you most likely too
 
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tijuana taxi said:
If IBS wants it so badly then I have to think its financially motivated.
Lots of people have had to adapt and consequently suffered financially, why do others think they are exempt
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So what should the plan be - lock stuff down for the next 12-18 months or longer and see people go through hardship just because others have done? Or look to rebuild the economy and move forward. The virus is not going to just go away - we could pull up the drawbridge I guess and spend the rest of the year confined to homes and online deliveries... but at what cost to peoples physical and mental health.

What happens to public services when we have 2/3/4/5m out of work, and a huge drop in tax revenues?

Speaking for myself, I want normality and I will be worse off as will spend more on going out! :D
 
cambsno said:
What happens to public services when we have 2/3/4/5m out of work, and a huge drop in tax revenues?
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This is a question that every British government has avoided answering since 1950.

I've pointed out elsewhere that we should remove all tax allowances and replace the welfare system with a universal basic income, paid to each and every British voter. If that payment was £150 per week, the government would increase their income from £594 billion to £641 billion. The basic figures for this calculation can be found in this HMRC document...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/837766/191009_Bulletin_FINAL.pdf
 
tijuana taxi said:
If IBS wants it so badly then I have to think its financially motivated.
Lots of people have had to adapt and consequently suffered financially, why do others think they are exempt
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A lot of those that have adapted are open for business already though.
The retail and leisure industry is still largely closed.
Maintaining 1m or 1.5m will still not be easy for a lot of businesses and they'll still have to adapt, so I do not think that makes them think they are exempt.
 
How does it make any sense that some theme parks can open but zoos can't?
 
sphexx said:
Supposed to be announced today that they can open from 15th.
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Good news if that's correct :)

15th June? or July?

If June, not really enough notice for them! But still good they can open as soon as they're ready!
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Good news if that's correct :)

15th June? or July?

If June, not really enough notice for them! But still good they can open as soon as they're ready!
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June I believe. I guess they will have been working towards designing 1 way systems and how to implement so I guess most Will open pretty soon after.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Good news if that's correct :)

15th June? or July?

If June, not really enough notice for them! But still good they can open as soon as they're ready!
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I think they already pretty much have everything in place and ready to go, they're crying out to open.
 
Just seen our glorious leader will be presenting the daily briefing today.

Watched an old episode of My Name Is Earl yeterday and realised Mr Johnson reminds me of Earl's brother Randy
On a par intelligence wise, very similar haircut, fashion sense and body shape, even the name fits.
Bet he would need a toilet roll to record all the wrongs he needs to atone for
 
View: https://BANNED/EvolveDotZoo/status/1270723147893858304

'The study showed that less than 0.1% of those imported cases came directly from China. Instead the UK's coronavirus epidemic was largely initiated by travel from Italy in late February, Spain in early-to-mid-March and then France in mid-to-late-March. ... The study estimates 80% of those initial cases arrived in the country between 28 Feb and 29 March - the time the UK was debating whether to lockdown.'
 
dcash29 said:
However did the country go on the rampage when young white girls were being groomed? The answer is no.
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I'll take it that this one and modern slave labour is a little controversial for a response.
 
Not often I defend the government but the media are getting on my nerves... Last week they were all up in arms that kids were due to go back to school, now up in arms as they are not going back to school - i think even Starmer has got in on the act. Its just silly
 
sphexx said:
But, John, it a great tune aint’it? :). All countries and continents and peoples (with the possible exception of the first colonisers of South America & Australia) have similar colonial histories of expansions and dominations :(.

Always had pride and respect for our Royal Navy, Richard. I wasn't a regular but at 18 was a member of the RNVR at Liverpool and proud of my father's service (gunnery officer)on HMS Kent on the Russian Convoys and he was transferred to the Mediterranean Fleet..torpedoed twice. I was christened (not consulted on the matter..lol) on HMS Excellent ..shore-based establishment,Whale Island (Portsmouth) in an upside down ship's bell..RN Gunnery school. My dad said I learned to run before I could walk..lol. Many of my infant photos are of me dressed in an officers' uniform..with cap too.

The tune is good..agree but I much prefer Heart of Oak, the RN's official march.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwoYH20zdeQ


If I join in with Land of Hope & Glory I always substitute “god” with “Dog” which makes more sense to me :).

Maybe put new words to it and have it as the national anthem as the tune is excellent but the lyrics must relate to the country and not to the Head of a hereditary anachronistic self-serving, highly privileged, extremely wealthy institution that should be banished to history from whence it came. It won't come as a surprise to you that I never sing it nor listen to it on the radio/tv. :)

Here's what the lyrics of a national anthem should be about. This is the english translation..not the tune.

https://welearnwelsh.com/blog/learn-the-welsh-national-anthem-words-and-translation/
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Went AWOL yesterday and just looking through the posts and replied to Sphexx before reading on and seeing the thread is back on COVID topic. Sorry about that.
 
Retune said:
View: https://BANNED/EvolveDotZoo/status/1270723147893858304

'The study showed that less than 0.1% of those imported cases came directly from China. Instead the UK's coronavirus epidemic was largely initiated by travel from Italy in late February, Spain in early-to-mid-March and then France in mid-to-late-March. ... The study estimates 80% of those initial cases arrived in the country between 28 Feb and 29 March - the time the UK was debating whether to lockdown.'
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In February we had a teacher in our area come back from a school trip to Italy, he felt unwell so decided to get tested, he was told the result would take 3-4 days, he asked what he should do and was told to go to work while waiting for the results
 
We have a low infection rate but it is slowly going up

May the 20th

20may.JPG

June the 10th

june 10th.JPG


Wonder what the number would be if we had a couple of thousand infections
 
mikew said:
We have a low infection rate but it is slowly going up

May the 20th

View attachment 282482

June the 10th

View attachment 282483


Wonder what the number would be if we had a couple of thousand infections
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Something to bear in mind is that we are testing more people and I think we should be expecting more confirmed cases.

If we tested 1000 people in the week up to May 20th but tested 2000 people in the week up to June 10th (or however its measured) then the cases per ,000 tested will be a lot less.
 
cambsno said:
Not often I defend the government but the media are getting on my nerves... Last week they were all up in arms that kids were due to go back to school, now up in arms as they are not going back to school - i think even Starmer has got in on the act. Its just silly
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This is what Boris and Co don't get, it's not about getting the kids back to school now or on the 1st of June as he stated it's about the government involving all parties teachers, parents, councils and coming up with an agreed plan as how to get them back. Now I know this is not the Boris way he just likes to throw out statements and directives and then leave others to try and sort out the mess that he has created, but sometimes you just have to do things in a logical order a bit like putting the horse in front of the cart and not the other way around as he seems rather fond off.
 
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tarric said:
This is what Boris and Co don't get, it's not about getting the kids back to school now or on the 1st of June as he stated it's about the government involving all parties teachers, parents, councils and coming up with an agreed plan as how to get them back. Now I know this is not the Boris way he just likes to throw out statements and directives and then leave others to try and sort out the mess that he has created, but sometimes you just have to do things in a logical order a bit like putting the cart in front of the horse and not the other way around as he seems rather fond off.
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Agree. Boris's way of coming out with the good sounding statements or policy works well because in more normal times something like, "X millions more will be invested in whatever" tends to get wrapped up in other statements and forgotten about because the impact is probably long term and the effect is not easy to see.

It is completely different with anything COVID19 related. It has a direct and almost immediate impact on people and people are interested in it, which isn't always the case with other policies.
People question how these things are going to work and point out anomalies and, as you say, taking advice from others (apart from advice of the Durham Dasher) is not part of Boris's way of doing things.

Dave
 
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