The virus. PPE. Part 1

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There's a lot of speculation, I'm quite sure there would be many slave masters who stayed in nearby settlements and ate the best meat available. They were probably even buried in the pyramids as well. All twelve of them I guess :D
 
There's a lot of 'slap down' language in this thread, from both sides. If we want society to move forwards then we need to be looking for ways for everyone to win from this. Throwing accusations at 'priviledged white men' or 'black slavemasters' will only help ensure the status quo is maintained. A solution has to involve and embrace everyone.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Bearing in mind BAME people are at more risk to it, I think desperate is the word you're looking for.

I assume though, that if I scroll back through posts, I'll find similar posts calling all the people celebrating VE day with garden parties and street conga lines illiterate and thick? Or is it only reserved for those who break the rules for reasons you don't agree with?
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Not all all Andy. Thing is i'm not interested in the colour or religion of a person, For me its how people are towards me.
As for you latter remark, if people were social distancing and not causing trouble or damage I dont have a problem. On the other hand if people wish to protest and social distance, dont cause trouble or damage, I also dont have a problem.

However did the country go on the rampage when young white girls were being groomed? The answer is no.
 
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Whilst going through the posts a thought struck me. Each year the last night of the Proms traditionally end with 'Land of Hope and Glory' In fact, many people would like it to replace our current national anthem. A 2006 BBC survey showed that 55% want this change. Also, sung with gusto is the jingoistic 'Rule Britannia' I expect many of those young people so heartily singing them and backed up with Union flag-waving are at this time adding their voices of support to what's happening now.

I looked into both pieces. The music, Land of Hope and Glory as most will know, is actually Pomp and Circumstance March Number 1 (1902) by Edward Elgar and the lyrics were written by A.C.Benson. It even invokes God ! Elgar is said to be not best pleased that his instrumental piece had lyrics added.

Land of Hope and Glory Mother of The Free.. ...Eh ?? The irony of it.

Wider still and Wider is a reference to the will of Cecil Rhodes, contemporaneous with the writing of the lyrics in which he bequeathed his considerable wealth for the specific purpose of promoting the extension of British rule throughout the world,infact he'd written a long list of countries he wanted bringing under British rule and colonised by British people. I wonder how long his statue will remain in place at Oriel College, Oxford ?

God who made thee mighty....and that not being enough at the time God is exalted to make Britain even mightier 'make thee mightier yet'. ie to lord it (no pun intended) over yet more unfortunate peoples' of the world.

Rule Brittania. To me it's jingoism of the worst kind. My wife and I went to the Royal Albert Hall to watch a concert re the commemoration of the Battle of Britain. We went for the programme of music of course. As we entered the hall we were presented with (free of charge) a small union flag on a stick. I declined the offer.

Some wording from this song. It was written in 1740. The history is convoluted but it was written at the height of the slave trade 1640-1807 that saw an estimated enslavement of 3.1 million Africans of which 2.7 million actually arrived in our colonies around the world.

The first lines are rather ironic.

Rule Brittania, Brittania Rules the waves, Britain never,never,never shall be slaves. Ok for Africans to be slaves but not the British.

God,as ever, is invoked yet again.

'When Britain first, at Heavens command, arose from out the azore main'.

It alludes to tyrants of other countries and their attempts to 'bend thee down' That sounds to me that it means rulers of countries trying to defend their countries against the Brits.

Verse 3.
'The nations not so blest as thee .........(ie Britain)
Must, in their turn to tyrants fall...... (ie their own leaders)
While thou shall flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all"

I actually think that people sing it with gusto without giving a thought to the meaning of the words.

After the end of WW2 the German national anthem had 'Deutschland Deutschland über Alles'..(Germany over everything) taken out after it was put in by the Nazis.
 
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cambsno said:
You do know that I was not speaking on behalf of everyone, just that it was generally accepted at the time, the same as many other not very good things.
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But you said it was perfectly acceptable to people at the time, which is what I replied to
 
JohnC6 said:
Whilst going through the posts a thought struck me. Each year the last night of the Proms traditionally end with 'Land of Hope and Glory' In fact, many people would like it to replace our current national anthem. A 2006 BBC survey showed that 55% want this change. Also, sung with gusto is the jingoistic 'Rule Britannia' I expect many of those young people so heartily singing them and backed up with Union flag-waving are at this time adding their voices of support to what's happening now.

I looked into both pieces. The music, Land of Hope and Glory as most will know, is actually Pomp and Circumstance March Number 1 (1902) by Edward Elgar and the lyrics were written by A.C.Benson. It even invokes God ! Elgar is said to be not best pleased that his instrumental piece had lyrics added.

Land of Hope and Glory Mother of The Free.. ...Eh ?? The irony of it.

Wider still and Wider is a reference to the will of Cecil Rhodes, contemporaneous with the writing of the lyrics in which he bequeathed his considerable wealth for the specific purpose of promoting the extension of British rule throughout the world,infact he'd written a long list of countries he wanted bringing under British rule and colonised by British people. I wonder how long his statue will remain in place at Oriel College, Oxford ?

God who made thee mighty....and that not being enough at the time God is exalted to make Britain even mightier 'make thee mightier yet'. ie to lord it (no pun intended) over yet more unfortunate peoples' of the world.

Rule Brittania. To me it's jingoism of the worst kind. My wife and I went to the Royal Albert Hall to watch a concert re the commemoration of the Battle of Britain. We went for the programme of music of course. As we entered the hall we were presented with (free of charge) a small union flag on a stick. I declined the offer.

Some wording from this song. It was written in 1740. The history is convoluted but it was written at the height of the slave trade 1640-1807 that saw an estimated enslavement of 3.1 million Africans of which 2.7 million actually arrived in our colonies around the world.

The first lines are rather ironic.

Rule Brittania, Brittania Rules the waves, Britain never,never,never shall be slaves. Ok for Africans to be slaves but not the British.

God,as ever, is invoked yet again.

'When Britain first, at Heavens command, arose from out the azore main'.

It alludes to tyrants of other countries and their attempts to 'bend thee down' That sounds to me that it means rulers of countries trying to defend their countries against the Brits.

Verse 3.
'The nations not so blest as thee .........(ie Britain)
Must, in their turn to tyrants fall...... (ie their own leaders)
While thou shall flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all"

I actually think that people sing it with gusto without giving a thought to the meaning of the words.

After the end of WW2 the German national anthem had 'Deutschland Deutschland über Alles'..(Germany over everything) taken out after it was put in by the Nazis.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you might prefer an national anthem that proclaimed:

We are a mediocre bunch
who do have the slightest hunch
why anyone should think we're great
let alone stir enemies hate.

We have no god and one old queen
our nation once great, now 'has-been'
at last about to do the deed:
from Europe finally secede.

;)

Tongue very firmly pressed against cheek.
 
JohnC6 said:
Whilst going through the posts a thought struck me. Each year the last night of the Proms traditionally end with 'Land of Hope and Glory' In fact, many people would like it to replace our current national anthem. A 2006 BBC survey showed that 55% want this change. Also, sung with gusto is the jingoistic 'Rule Britannia' I expect many of those young people so heartily singing them and backed up with Union flag-waving are at this time adding their voices of support to what's happening now.

I looked into both pieces. The music, Land of Hope and Glory as most will know, is actually Pomp and Circumstance March Number 1 (1902) by Edward Elgar and the lyrics were written by A.C.Benson. It even invokes God ! Elgar is said to be not best pleased that his instrumental piece had lyrics added.

Land of Hope and Glory Mother of The Free.. ...Eh ?? The irony of it.

Wider still and Wider is a reference to the will of Cecil Rhodes, contemporaneous with the writing of the lyrics in which he bequeathed his considerable wealth for the specific purpose of promoting the extension of British rule throughout the world,infact he'd written a long list of countries he wanted bringing under British rule and colonised by British people. I wonder how long his statue will remain in place at Oriel College, Oxford ?

God who made thee mighty....and that not being enough at the time God is exalted to make Britain even mightier 'make thee mightier yet'. ie to lord it (no pun intended) over yet more unfortunate peoples' of the world.

Rule Brittania. To me it's jingoism of the worst kind. My wife and I went to the Royal Albert Hall to watch a concert re the commemoration of the Battle of Britain. We went for the programme of music of course. As we entered the hall we were presented with (free of charge) a small union flag on a stick. I declined the offer.

Some wording from this song. It was written in 1740. The history is convoluted but it was written at the height of the slave trade 1640-1807 that saw an estimated enslavement of 3.1 million Africans of which 2.7 million actually arrived in our colonies around the world.

The first lines are rather ironic.

Rule Brittania, Brittania Rules the waves, Britain never,never,never shall be slaves. Ok for Africans to be slaves but not the British.

God,as ever, is invoked yet again.

'When Britain first, at Heavens command, arose from out the azore main'.

It alludes to tyrants of other countries and their attempts to 'bend thee down' That sounds to me that it means rulers of countries trying to defend their countries against the Brits.

Verse 3.
'The nations not so blest as thee .........(ie Britain)
Must, in their turn to tyrants fall...... (ie their own leaders)
While thou shall flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all"

I actually think that people sing it with gusto without giving a thought to the meaning of the words.

After the end of WW2 the German national anthem had 'Deutschland Deutschland über Alles'..(Germany over everything) taken out after it was put in by the Nazis.
Click to expand...
But, John, it a great tune aint’it? :). All countries and continents and peoples (with the possible exception of the first colonisers of South America & Australia) have similar colonial histories of expansions and dominations :(.

If I join in with Land of Hope & Glory I always substitute “god” with “Dog” which makes more sense to me :).

For me “Rule Brittania, Brittania Rules the waves” celebrates the great period of the British Navy, and didn’t the Navy enforce the ending of the slave trade after U.K. Abolition? Paradoxical innit?
 
mikew said:
I wonder if rather than destroy these statues etc they should be moved to a permanent display of the slave trade, it needs remembering not throwing in a dock and get forgotten, we already have sections of humanity denying the holocaust

Not something that should be celebrated but remember
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That had been requested for years, or even just a plaque next to it explaining the history.

They're now going to retrieve it and put it in a museum, and the placards the protesters left behind will be preserved in the museum along with it.
 
Studio488commercial said:
As white British male I feel discriminated by the PC brigade., however I do not go around defacing our historic monuments, assaulting our emergency workers and trying to set fire to our flag at the cenataph.
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You feel discriminated against by being pulled up on using discriminatory language? My heart bleeds.
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
I assume everyone who thinks the statue being pulled down is ridiculous had similar opinions when the statue of Saddam was toppled or when Germany got rid of all the nazi statues?

No? Thought not.
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Do you think the statue should have been removed using legal means? Or do you think it's OK to demolish, assault, burn down or worse to anyone or anything someone might disagree with..?
 
NeilA1975 said:
Do you think the statue should have been removed using legal means? Or do you think it's OK to demolish, assault, burn down or worse to anyone or anything someone might disagree with..?
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So you think Saddams statue should have been voted on and removed and disagree with it being toppled then?

They did try and get it removed, or at least an explanation put up next to it explaining his history. But the black people who found it offensive were outvoted by the white people who didn't see the harm in it. It does belong in a museum, where it can be used to educate on both pain caused while he earned his money and the good he did with that money. Not just on a plinth in celebration.
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
They did try and get it removed, or at least an explanation put up next to it explaining his history. But the black people who found it offensive were outvoted by the white people who didn't see the harm in it. It does belong in a museum, where it can be used to educate on both pain caused while he earned his money and the good he did with that money. Not just on a plinth in celebration.
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So you support lawlessness then. Thanks,
 
I see this still has b****r all to do with the virus despite the main antagonist stating yesterday at 08.26

KitsuneAndy said:
Anyway, debate about the BLM protests is always going to get heated, and while I think it's an important discussion, I think it's important this thread doesn't end up in Hot Topics.
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Isn't there a thread elsewhere to discuss this

Back to the virus I see that secondary schools may not even open fully in September now
Get those bloody kids back to school, need some peace and quiet during the daytime in the week
 
Very informative. This is taken from the 'blog' of Dr Richard Cree, an intensive care doctor at James cook University hospital Middlesbrough.


  • Richard Cree


    • 11 hours ago

    • 4 min read

Always Room for Improvement
Monday 8th June 2020

Figures for 7th June
UK COVID Deaths 77 / Total 40,542
James Cook Hospital – Total COVID deaths – 241

I am enjoying one last day of holiday before I’m back at work tomorrow. I thought I’d share the latest report from the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre (ICNARC). They report data on COVID patients that have been admitted to Critical Care Units throughout the UK. This report includes all UK admissions up until 4th June. It is the most comprehensive report to date and effectively deals with nearly all the cases seen during the initial ‘surge’.

This report deals with 12,375 patients admitted to Critical Care Units with confirmed COVID-19. Of these, they have complete data on 9623 patients. The outcome of 8533 patients is known and the other 1055 remain within ICU, still being treated.

London and the south and east of the country have still seen the most Critical Care admissions. Birmingham and the Black Country are next, with Greater Manchester, Cheshire & Merseyside and the North of England Network (the area north of Leeds) having treated similar numbers of patients.

The report continues to show that the median age of those admitted is 60 years and that 71% of these patients are men.

74% of people admitted were overweight (62% of the general population is normally overweight). 9.4% of all patients admitted to Critical Care had what can be described as a ‘very severe’ underlying illness. 61% of patients needed intubation and ventilation within the first 24 hours of arrival in Critical Care. This number has fallen and probably represents increasing numbers of patients who were given CPAP in order to avoid ventilation as their illness severity scores have not changed since the last few reports.

A new feature in this report is a detailed look at patient demographics adjusted for ethnicity. Comparing White and BAME patients, the BAME patients are younger (median age 57 vs 61) and more likely to come from a deprived area – 31% of BAME patients fall into the most deprived group, compared with 22% of white patients. 69% of the BAME patients were overweight, compared with 76% of the white patients.

7.7% of the BAME patients had a ‘very severe’ underlying illness compared with 10.6% of the white patient population. Of interest is that 57% of white patients needed intubation and ventilation within the first 24 hours of arrival in Critical Care, compared with 68.5% of BAME patients. This is despite oxygen requirements and illness severity scores being very similar.

What is good news is that Critical Care mortality rates have improved over the past month. Of the 8533 patients whose outcome is known, 42% have died and 58% have survived to leave ICU alive. The survivors have been treated for an average of 11 days. Of these 8533 patients who were admitted to Critical Care Units, 72% of them required a ventilator and 25% have required dialysis for kidney failure.

This improvement in survival will be partly explained by the fact that early outcome figures did not take into account a significant number of people who remained on a ventilator in ICU for a number of weeks; people like my friend Gary. Thankfully, like Gary, a number of these patients will have survived, leading to an improved overall outcome. Hopefully it also represents the growing experience of ICU staff in dealing with the sickest COVID-19 patients.

Overall, 55% of men and 63% of women have survived. Breaking down survival by age, 84% of under 40’s have survived to leave ICU, 77% of those in their 40’s, 64% of those in their 50’s, 50% of those in their 60’s and 38% of those in their 70’s and 80’s.

Looking at survival by degree of organ failure, figures have again improved. 80% of all patients receiving CPAP in Critical Care survived whilst 49% of all ventilated patients survived. There has been a big improvement in the survival of patients in kidney failure with 37% of patients who need dialysis surviving.

Of course, some of this may be that ICU teams are better now at recognising which patients with multiple organ failure will not benefit from prolonged, futile attempts at treatment but most of the improvement will be the fact that the sicker patients with kidney failure took longer to survive and recover and were not included in previous figures.

Taking another look at the BAME population, the overall mortality of BAME patients was 55% whilst 59% of white patients survived. There is evidence that the BAME patients were sicker, with significantly more of them requiring intubation and ventilation and dialysis. This is in keeping with national studies and statistical analysis highlighting the increased risk of death in this group.

This report is an important one. It highlights what ICUs across the country have achieved during this peak surge of cases. We are all relived to see that mortality is improving because there have been times when we have all felt powerless to influence our patients outcomes.
 
Donnie said:
So, are you saying that slavery was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time? :thinking::thinking:
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I am. Those who think otherwise are never going to understand how we got from there to here and why this is still a work in progress.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I am. Those who think otherwise are never going to understand how we got from there to here and why this is still a work in progress.
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I’m sure that “the people” in the original comment referred to people here rather than in slave owning countries, so I agree. As to whether slaves thought it acceptable I suspect that many may have. I think that in feudal society here many villeins etc just thought therir situation, though hard, was part of the natural order of things and probably ordained by God. Maybe some of the later generations of slaves in USA had similar feelings if they had a “good” owner — I have no idea if that was true, it would be interesting to know but frankly too much has happened since then to get a clear answer.

And I don’t think it has much to do with the virus or PPE:(.
 
Donnie said:
No assumption at all, "the people of the time" that by definition includes everyone
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cambsno said:
If you want to be pedantic about it go right ahead.
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I mean if pedantry is being accurate about what you said then I have no problem being called a pedant.
I could have pointed out that your statement shows an inherent racism in and of itself in that you didn't differentiate the slavers from the slaves in your statement but I wasn't looking for a debate on such to be honest.
 
Donnie said:
So, are you saying that slavery was perfectly acceptable to the people of the time? :thinking::thinking:
Click to expand...
AndrewFlannigan said:
I am. Those who think otherwise are never going to understand how we got from there to here and why this is still a work in progress.
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You're including the slaves themselves, you're actually saying the slaves themselves that it was perfectly acceptable?
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
The slaves had no choice. Just because they put up with it, doesn't mean they found it perfectly acceptable.
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Of course not and it would be a complete nonsense to suggest otherwise. Clearly I was talking about the non-slaves who made up the wider population in Africa, Europe and America and who for the most part accepted slavery as a fact of life.

Having said which, we now know about phenomena like "Stockholm Syndrome" under which people begin to identify with their captors' aims and objectives. Slavery had a hierarchy and there were slaves who controlled other slaves. Being at the top of the pile such slaves were jealous of their prerogatives and would maintain the slave hierarchy, often with brutality greater than the slave owners themselves. A similar situation occurred in the Nazi concentration camps where the Kapos could be even more brutal than the SS guards.

We must never be naive about issues like this because that disguises what really happened and how easily it can happen again.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Of course not and it would be a complete nonsense to suggest otherwise. Clearly I was talking about the non-slaves who made up the wider population in Africa, Europe and America and who for the most part accepted slavery as a fact of life.
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(My Bold above. )
The reason I have pointedly brought up this issue with cambsno and then with your statement to me
AndrewFlannigan said:
I am. Those who think otherwise are never going to understand how we got from there to here and why this is still a work in progress.
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.. is the fact it was NOT clear at all that either of you differentiated any one group at all. ie. both of your global statements inherently included everyone, black white pink yellow male female slaves and non slaves.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So you think Saddams statue should have been voted on and removed and disagree with it being toppled then?

They did try and get it removed, or at least an explanation put up next to it explaining his history. But the black people who found it offensive were outvoted by the white people who didn't see the harm in it. It does belong in a museum, where it can be used to educate on both pain caused while he earned his money and the good he did with that money. Not just on a plinth in celebration.
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I mind there was a poll done by the Bristol Post around 2014, but was there an official vote?


EDIT: Never mind, I just saw Tori's post which crossed in the, er post? :D
 
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View: https://BANNED/guardianscience/status/1270267397467848705

'Contrary to the idea that Chinese scientists deliberately released the virus, existing patterns of infection suggest that the wide spread of Covid-19 was a question of when, not if. Only a handful of people work on bat coronaviruses in labs in China, and they wear masks and gloves so as not to contaminate their laboratories. In 2018, we conducted a pilot survey of people living in rural Yunnan province and found nearly 3% had antibodies for bat coronaviruses. Expanding this data to cover the densely populated area in southeast Asia where there are bats known to harbour coronaviruses, we can safely estimate that between one and seven million people are infected with bat coronaviruses each year.'

'...human domination of the world’s ecosystems as we encroach on animal habitats is opening new pathways for viruses, once hidden in the depths of the forest, to be transmitted to humans.'
 
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Retune said:
View: https://BANNED/guardianscience/status/1270267397467848705

'Contrary to the idea that Chinese scientists deliberately released the virus, existing patterns of infection suggest that the wide spread of Covid-19 was a question of when, not if. Only a handful of people work on bat coronaviruses in labs in China, and they wear masks and gloves so as not to contaminate their laboratories. In 2018, we conducted a pilot survey of people living in rural Yunnan province and found nearly 3% had antibodies for bat coronaviruses. Expanding this data to cover the densely populated area in southeast Asia where there are bats known to harbour coronaviruses, we can safely estimate that between one and seven million people are infected with bat coronaviruses each year.'

'...human domination of the world’s ecosystems as we encroach on animal habitats is opening new pathways for viruses, once hidden in the depths of the forest, to be transmitted to humans.'
Click to expand...

Sort of relevant to that:
“Coronavirus may have been in Wuhan in August, study suggests”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...y-have-been-in-wuhan-in-august-study-suggests
 
Retune said:
'...human domination of the world’s ecosystems as we encroach on animal habitats is opening new pathways for viruses, once hidden in the depths of the forest, to be transmitted to humans.'
Click to expand...
Pathogens, be they virus, fungus or bacteria, are opportunistic. If they find a new host they'll exploit it.
 
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