The virus. PPE. Part 1

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Bobsyeruncle said:
If he requires care, then the rules allow you to visit.
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There is a degree of flexibility for people in this situation. For my own mother (87, heart condition, diabetes & various other illnesses) my wife and I applied for carer status so that we could visit legitimately & ensure she had food, mental well-being etc.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
My mum in law was taken into hospital this week with her parkinson's disease. Not allowed any visitors at all, it's really s***. My 77 year old father in law is now having to look after himself at home, and despite him being the well one, he really could still do with a hand.

But we're not Dominic. So we just have to lump it and deal with it without any support, or even being allowed to go into his home to help with the washing etc.
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I would say, with my nurse hat on, if he needs a hand as in personal care, hygeine and taking medication you are indeed in the form of a carer justified. If its just the odd washing up and hoovering then he needs to cut back on those things a bit for now but you wouldn't be justified in visiting as it's not personal care.
 
nilagin said:
Probably find the majority of people in the UK, could give a toss about it either. Just the curtain twitchers.
On the subject of curtain twitchers, if the Gaurdian's financial sufferings take a turn for the worse, you may be able to get your daily dose from Hello Magazine, if they survive of course. ;)
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If you must mis-spell the Grauniad, at least do it in the accepted way, it’s been GRAUNIAD from the days of lead type to now :)
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
I thought the guidelines he read out contained words/phrases not covered previously.
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Exactly, that is why I referred to nuanced answer. I can only surmise everything he read was there in the full original document, that anyone could have downloaded is desired, but a little like the SAGE advice being interpreted/condensed for public consumption by the government ministers.........."we" only got the headlines instructions of "Stay home" etc :banghead:
 
Box Brownie said:
Watching the Marr show this morning with Grant Shapps being interviewed:-

He did not look that comfortable fielding & answering DC related questions.

He repeatedly read from his notes and in one answer read a more detailed document about the lockdown instructions that I could hear/'see' a more nuanced interpretation that slightly addressed Cummings actions.

Now, at the press conferences the lockdown instructions were never nuanced in that more comprehensive manner. So it seems that maybe Cummings was within "an" interpretation of the lockdown instructions......but not really in the spirit of them, based on the way everyone else is and was expected to behave.

I repeat my earlier comment that because IMO he was not acting in the spirit of it ~ "do as I say, not as I do...." :(
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"Essential travel does not include visits to second homes, camp sites, caravan parks or similar, whether for isolation purposes or holidays. People must remain in their primary residence. Not taking these steps puts additional pressure on communities and services that are already at risk. "

Not really sure there's an alternative interpretation to that.
 
Donnie said:
I would say, with my nurse hat on, if he needs a hand as in personal care, hygeine and taking medication you are indeed in the form of a carer justified. If its just the odd washing up and hoovering then he needs to cut back on those things a bit for now but you wouldn't be justified in visiting as it's not personal care.
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Yeah no, he's fine with that. Hence us not doing it. He'll just have to live on microwave meals for a few days. He just feels a bit down being at home alone, so keeping in touch regularly with video calls etc
 
Retune said:
'No animal shall sleep in a bed WITH SHEETS.'
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Ah! now that is a blast from the past.......great book written in 1948 painting a future history. It was one of the curriculum books during my school year of which another good one was To kill a Mockingbird.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Yeah no, he's fine with that. Hence us not doing it. He'll just have to live on microwave meals for a few days. He just feels a bit down being at home alone, so keeping in touch regularly with video calls etc
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I bet he does, bet he's missing the wife :-( Are the nursing staff on the ward she is in doing any video calling with relatives at all? Might be worth finding out for him? I know some places are doing this.
 
Donnie said:
I bet he does, bet he's missing the wife :-( Are the nursing staff on the ward she is in doing any video calling with relatives at all? Might be worth finding out for him? I know some places are doing this.
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He can call her :)

She's on the COVID ward as she had respiratory issues, but tested negative thankfully. But has meant the nurses aren't necessarily aware of all the complications of parkinsons. One asked why she wasn't walking :rolleyes:

They hadn't given her any trihexyphenidyl for 2 days though because the pharmacy didn't have any, and they wouldn't use the blister pack she took with her for some reason. So she's really out of it at the moment.
 
Box Brownie said:
Watching the Marr show this morning with Grant Shapps being interviewed:-

He did not look that comfortable fielding & answering DC related questions.

He repeatedly read from his notes and in one answer read a more detailed document about the lockdown instructions that I could hear/'see' a more nuanced interpretation that slightly addressed Cummings actions.

Now, at the press conferences the lockdown instructions were never nuanced in that more comprehensive manner. So it seems that maybe Cummings was within "an" interpretation of the lockdown instructions......but not really in the spirit of them, based on the way everyone else is and was expected to behave.

I repeat my earlier comment that because IMO he was not acting in the spirit of it ~ "do as I say, not as I do...." :(
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Shaps is nervous because the liar-in-chief has sent his puppet ministers out to lie for Dom so it’s their heads on the block if it all goes wrong right :).

Johnson seems to have confined himself to meaningless (but true) statement that “at least he wasn’t visiting his lover” :).
 
If as Dominic Cummings is stating the trip up to Durham to isolate was really about the welfare of this son I have a few questions:
Did they use anyone to provide childcare during the lockdown as I realise that both parents have high profile jobs.
Was it not possible for family and friends in London to provide the same level of care as those in Durham.
If not then why did he not contact his or his wife's employers as stated in government guidelines to request help.
And finally if as stated his father contacted the local police over security issues while his son was there what security are the police providing to Dominic Cummings and who is paying.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
"Essential travel does not include visits to second homes, camp sites, caravan parks or similar, whether for isolation purposes or holidays. People must remain in their primary residence. Not taking these steps puts additional pressure on communities and services that are already at risk. "

Not really sure there's an alternative interpretation to that.
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There isn't an alternative interpretation.
But when Grant Shapps read out the guidelines he had, it included words/phrases at the end along the lines of "where practical or possible" and that is their basis for saying what he did was ok.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
"Essential travel does not include visits to second homes, camp sites, caravan parks or similar, whether for isolation purposes or holidays. People must remain in their primary residence. Not taking these steps puts additional pressure on communities and services that are already at risk. "

Not really sure there's an alternative interpretation to that.
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Shapps kept refering to his notes and the 'interpetation' that I recall was in regard to the "reported" reason being to do with the 4yo child. I was as you will note not saying such interpretation was a justification of his action......but to the contrary.

IMO Cummings is hiding behind that (possible) interpretation rather than acting in a more conciliatory manner. It could come back and bite Johnson in future that he has not (one way or the other) spoken publicly and just 'sent his generals' to support Cummings actions.

Johnson has oft been described (of himself?) as s Churchillian figure.......well if he carries on like he is he may suffer the same political & parliamentary fate of his attributed hero!
 
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Box Brownie said:
Shapps kept refering to his notes and the 'interpetation' that I recall was in regard to the "reported" reason being to do with the 4yo child. I was as you will note not saying such interpretation was a justification of his action......but to the contrary.

IMO Cummings is hiding behind that (possible) interpretation
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Actually Cummings is not hiding behind that (others are doing it for him), he said “I don’t care what it looks like” or similar words.

rather than acting in a more conciliatory manner. It could come back and bite Johnson in future that he has not (one way or the other) spoken publicly and just 'sent his generals' to support Cummings actions.

Johnson has oft been described (of himself?) as s Churchillian figure.......well if he carries on like he is he may suffer the same political & parliamentary fact of his attributed hero!
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Bobsyeruncle said:
I've not read the book, but I've seen the video....:)
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Though I read them a few times decades ago I do recall all three books that I mentioned as being good powerful literature....so if you have never read it/them do have a look for yourself if/when you can ;)
 
... and did they actually need any "child care" from relatives while they were there or did his wife look after the child as normal?

If no additional help was needed then they could have stayed in London like all the normal people did and avoided all the "justification" :rolleyes:

Knob!
 
tarric said:
If as Dominic Cummings is stating the trip up to Durham to isolate was really about the welfare of this son I have a few questions:
Did they use anyone to provide childcare during the lockdown as I realise that both parents have high profile jobs.
Was it not possible for family and friends in London to provide the same level of care as those in Durham.
If not then why did he not contact his or his wife's employers as stated in government guidelines to request help.
And finally if as stated his father contacted the local police over security issues while his son was there what security are the police providing to Dominic Cummings and who is paying.
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Something else that's nagging away, London (Westminster) to Durham non-stop is around 4.5 or 5 hours, why would you subject a 4yo to that time in the confinement of a car with someone symptomatic of C-19?
 
mex said:
Something else that's nagging away, London (Westminster) to Durham non-stop is around 4.5 or 5 hours, why would you subject a 4yo to that time in the confinement of a car with someone symptomatic of C-19?
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Because he only cares about himself
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
There isn't an alternative interpretation.
But when Grant Shapps read out the guidelines he had, it included words/phrases at the end along the lines of "where practical or possible" and that is their basis for saying what he did was ok.
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I have just reread the stay at home: guidance for households with possible coronavirus (COVID-19) infection and nowhere does it include the sentence "where practical or possible" so is he just using his or boss's own interpretation and if so are we all allowed to use our own interpretations to suit our own needs.
 
tarric said:
I have just reread the stay at home: guidance for households with possible coronavirus (COVID-19) infection and nowhere does it include the sentence "where practical or possible" so is he just using his or boss's own interpretation and if so are we all allowed to use our own interpretations to suit our own needs.
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That's what Andrew Marr said...
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Grant Shapps bending over backwards to explain Dominic's actions.

"We never said specifically where you had to isolate".

Marr: "you did, you said home".

"He isolated in a home"

They think we're all idiots.
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We are. How else did they get a landslide!!!
 
mex said:
Something else that's nagging away, London (Westminster) to Durham non-stop is around 4.5 or 5 hours, why would you subject a 4yo to that time in the confinement of a car with someone symptomatic of C-19?
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Easy because your a caring compassionate individual who only has yous sons welfare in mind, or it makes for a useful excuse for being a total and utter t***, take your pick.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
My mum in law was taken into hospital this week with her parkinson's disease. Not allowed any visitors at all, it's really s***. My 77 year old father in law is now having to look after himself at home, and despite him being the well one, he really could still do with a hand.

But we're not Dominic. So we just have to lump it and deal with it without any support, or even being allowed to go into his home to help with the washing etc.
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But you can visit to care. Just not be stupid and know you are probably contagious!!!
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
There isn't an alternative interpretation.
But when Grant Shapps read out the guidelines he had, it included words/phrases at the end along the lines of "where practical or possible" and that is their basis for saying what he did was ok.
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In that case it’s not practical for me to drink at home due to the kids so I am off down the pub!!
 
Box Brownie said:
Drat.......you are right.....mixing up my school books...... Animal Farm was in my head but I tryped wrongly :coat:
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It's probably worth quoting the whole section. Orwell understood very well how our leaders like to bend the rules backwards and then claim nothing has changed. Grant Shapps is in the Squealer role here:

'It was about this time that the pigs suddenly moved into the farmhouse and took up their residence there. Again the animals seemed to remember that a resolution against this had been passed in the early days, and again Squealer was able to convince them that this was not the case. It was absolutely necessary, he said, that the pigs, who were the brains of the farm, should have a quiet place to work in. It was also more suited to the dignity of the Leader (for of late he had taken to speaking of Napoleon under the title of "Leader") to live in a house than in a mere sty. Nevertheless, some of the animals were disturbed when they heard that the pigs not only took their meals in the kitchen and used the drawing-room as a recreation room, but also slept in the beds. Boxer passed it off as usual with "Napoleon is always right!", but Clover, who thought she remembered a definite ruling against beds, went to the end of the barn and tried to puzzle out the Seven Commandments which were inscribed there. Finding herself unable to read more than individual letters, she fetched Muriel.

"Muriel," she said, "read me the Fourth Commandment. Does it not say something about never sleeping in a bed?"

With some difficulty Muriel spelt it out.

"It says, 'No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets,"' she announced finally.

Curiously enough, Clover had not remembered that the Fourth Commandment mentioned sheets; but as it was there on the wall, it must have done so. And Squealer, who happened to be passing at this moment, attended by two or three dogs, was able to put the whole matter in its proper perspective.

"You have heard then, comrades," he said, "that we pigs now sleep in the beds of the farmhouse? And why not? You did not suppose, surely, that there was ever a ruling against beds? A bed merely means a place to sleep in. A pile of straw in a stall is a bed, properly regarded. The rule was against sheets, which are a human invention. We have removed the sheets from the farmhouse beds, and sleep between blankets. And very comfortable beds they are too! But not more comfortable than we need, I can tell you, comrades, with all the brainwork we have to do nowadays. You would not rob us of our repose, would you, comrades? You would not have us too tired to carry out our duties? Surely none of you wishes to see Jones back?"

The animals reassured him on this point immediately, and no more was said about the pigs sleeping in the farmhouse beds. And when, some days afterwards, it was announced that from now on the pigs would get up an hour later in the mornings than the other animals, no complaint was made about that either.'
 
I know this wont be a popular view but I really don't care about Cummings. He is as far as I know not an elected official and again afaik he isn't a scientific or medical advisor so I wouldn't even attempt to hold him to the same standards. Yes, he's an important advisor but I'm not sure that necessarily means he should be automatically expected to be cleaner than clean in all matters.

The lockdown will be interpreted differently depending if you're pro or anti but I'd bet that the voices calling for his head would be shouting for different reasons if the government tried to tell them what they could or couldn't do if C19 entered their families and small children were involved. I suspect a lot of this boils down to good old politics and hating him for being a Boris boy or for his role in Brexit, just my vho. Before I even clicked on this thread I know who some of the posters would be and what their opinion would be.

If caught by the police a member of the public doing what he did (allegedly) may or may not have been fined or turned back or allowed on their way or "given advice" but possibly not hounded out of their job. However, this is the shrill knee jerk UK where we love to target people and tear them apart and he's a nice target so humanity and understanding or even reason is out the window.

Mostly I don't care and in the context of group hugs, street parties and idiots coughing over everything and other people at ASDA I can't see what he did months ago mattering one jot so wouldn't necessarily want to punish him too much if any of this was really down to doing what he thought right to protect his child and wider family.

I care about lies though and it's possible someone here is lying. If it's Cummings, witnesses or the media I don't know. Maybe all of them to some degree and none are imo above suspicion. These days couldn't we get at least near some truth with phone tracking? If for example Cummings was in the same area as a witness who said they saw him walking by the Tees (or where ever he was or wasn't) that's at least a clue but if one of them was somewhere else, or at least their phone was, that could be another matter.
 
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Just on balance and TV and wider reporting.

Again this wont be a popular view but my view is that it's difficult to know what organisation or person to trust these days. I think auntie has lost her shine these days. Big Time. IMO. A while back the police were branded as institutionally racist and I'd apply similar terms (institutionally bias or something like that) to some well known media and entertainment these days too as they're mostly the same type, mostly educated in the same schools and universities and mostly / possibly share similar views and this could even if it's only subconsciously lead to bias. I think not only do we need more quality objective investigative journalism we also need more diversity.
 
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I am sure Cummings car would have been picked up by ANPR cameras somewhere between London & Durham if he made the journeys as the media is suggesting.......
 
Seems to be blocking the road. Maybe the driver should be given some advice. Of course we could go all shrill and hound them out of their job.
 
woof woof said:
Seems to be blocking the road. Maybe the driver should be given some advice. Of course we could go all shrill and hound them out of their job.
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Apart from the car sized gap between it and the silver car...
 
woof woof said:
I know this wont be a popular view but I really don't care about Cummings. He is as far as I know not an elected official and again afaik he isn't a scientific or medical advisor so I wouldn't even attempt to hold him to the same standards. Yes, he's an important advisor but I'm not sure that necessarily means he should be automatically expected to be cleaner than clean in all matters.
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View: https://BANNED/k_faulkner/status/1264201655224020993
 
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