The virus. PPE. Part 1

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The only shrieking would have been from the more rabid columnists in the tabloids and the Steve Baker types in Johnson's own party - i.e., exactly those who have been calling for an end to the lockdown and whom this new, vaguer message is intended to placate.

Those with a different agenda you mean?

As I said above I thought things were pretty clear and I was surprised to wake up to what seems like a little media storm of confusion so I'm left with three possible equally valid explanations. It's possible I'm out of step, it's possible some people are thick or it's possible that they do understand but are choosing to send a different message, one of fud.

What do you think?
 
I had dipped out of this thread....

But for those that seem to not have any common sense....

You can go do work (If safe to do so)
You can exercise more than once a day (if safe to do so)
You can travel to a park etc (if safe to do so)

(There's a common theme here, don't you think).

It's quite clear in the first 4 words of Step 1.

That's all well and good but how many will have bothered to look up the additional information and will just be going by what they heard him say last night.

We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.

We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.

So work from home if you can, but you should go to work if you can’t work from home.

You can sit in the sun in your local park, you can drive to other destinations, you can even play sports but only with members of your own household.

These are all direct exerts from last nights speech and this is what some people will have heard.
I agree that we have to find a way through the current situation but in my opinion this was poorly thought-out and executed and it creates more confusion and uncertainty at a time were what the country requires is leadership and direction.
 
He's an idiot but he's not alone.

For an idiot he's done quite well for himself, been in over 50 TV shows, 30 or so films, 10 or 12 stage plays, raised a whole lot of money for a leukaemia charity, but yeah I see your point.
 
Of course they do.
Why? The Telegraph is usually supportive of a Tory Government.
What do you think?
My opinion is not relevant , I was simply remarking on your comment that your TV or Radio choices may be biased. The general consensus across much of the media is the message is confused,
 

But didn't he say words to the effect of go to work if you can do so safely? I can't remember the exact words but wasn't that the message? If it was is Boris to blame because people are too stupid and/or irresponsible to act safely? It would seem so.

The comment about toilet paper and people wiping their own arses seems apt.

But hang on. There's politics to consider. That's the important thing not c19 or people dying. So, he's an idiot and this confused message has wasted all the good work and put us all in danger.

There. I'm in step right on message now.
 
For an idiot he's done quite well for himself, been in over 50 TV shows, 30 or so films, 10 or 12 stage plays, raised a whole lot of money for a leukaemia charity, but yeah I see your point.

Ok. This little clip makes me think he's an idiot. Happy now?
 
Why? The Telegraph is usually supportive of a Tory Government.

My opinion is not relevant , I was simply remarking on your comment that your TV or Radio choices may be biased. The general consensus across much of the media is the message is confused,

I was just trying to get more of a snapshot from more ordinary folk, it wasn't a trap for you to fall into.

I've stated my opinion. I'm just interested in the genuine opinion of others. We all heard the same thing. Although I'm beginning to doubt it.
 
Those with a different agenda you mean?

As I said above I thought things were pretty clear and I was surprised to wake up to what seems like a little media storm of confusion so I'm left with three possible equally valid explanations. It's possible I'm out of step, it's possible some people are thick or it's possible that they do understand but are choosing to send a different message, one of fud.

What do you think?
How can you say a green Stay Alert message is clear? It just isn‘t. I know you’re not thick so I suspect bits of the “message” strike“ a chord with you, confirmation bias?
 
How can you say a green Stay Alert message is clear? It just isn‘t. I know you’re not thick so I suspect bits of the “message” strike“ a chord with you, confirmation bias?

Confirmation bias? Maybe I just have a functioning brain, common sense, good comprehension skills and a lack of bias.

But if you prefer, see my above post.

I'm right on message now.
 
I was just trying to get more of a snapshot from more ordinary folk, it wasn't a trap for you to fall into.

I've stated my opinion. I'm just interested in the genuine opinion of others. We all heard the same thing. Although I'm beginning to doubt it.
Personally I feel he's moved too soon I 'm not convinced we're out of the woods yet.

Regarding the PMs message, intrinsically its not confusing, its been laid out what you can and cannot do. But, there's always a but, people will, and already have taken advantage of the relaxed guidelines and that could be disastrous .
 
I’m surprised there seems to have been no attempt to encourage staggered working hours in the cities to reduce crowding on the tube etc.
 
Heres a point, valid I think. If someone catches covid-19 from returning back to an unsafe workplace, will they be able to claim industrial injury?
 
Personally I feel he's moved too soon I 'm not convinced we're out of the woods yet.

Regarding the PMs message, intrinsically its not confusing, its been laid out what you can and cannot do. But, there's always a but, people will, and already have taken advantage of the relaxed guidelines.

I think he's possibly slightly biased by the London experience and his own lifestyle as so many of our leaders perhaps seem to be but for me the message is clear enough to everyone.

As I've said multiple times in this and other threads, I look around me with astonishment.

I'm in an area which has been one of the most lockdown busting and also which has had one of the highest infection rates but listening to the radio and watching tv for a wider view honestly I just don't understand what I'm seeing and hearing around me and if anyone had told me how things would unfold before all this happened I'd never have believed things would be like this in the UK.
 
Confirmation bias? Maybe I just have a functioning brain, common sense, good comprehension skills and a lack of bias.

But if you prefer, see my above post.

I'm right on message now.
I’m sure what you take from the statement is in there but I, and it seems most people, think the change from the headline “stay at home “ to the vague “stay alert” is what the great intelligent creme-egg-stuffing British public will “see” :(.
 
I think he's possibly slightly biased by the London experience and his own lifestyle as so many of our leaders perhaps seem to be but for me the message is clear enough to everyone.

As I've said multiple times in this and other threads, I look around me with astonishment.

I'm in an area which has been one of the most lockdown busting and also which has had one of the highest infection rates but listening to the radio and watching tv for a wider view honestly I just don't understand what I'm seeing and hearing around me and if anyone had told me how things would unfold before all this happened I'd never have believed things would be like this in the UK.
The message is to return to work, but not use public transport, as seen from the photos this morning, thats hardly worked out well. Although, I would be interested to see photos from the tube just before the PMs message yesterday for comparison. Whilst its easy to say, yeah well people are idiots, they're being told to return to work, and public transport for many is their only option. That is what is confusing for many.

Edit: Its not perhaps that the message is confusing, but rather it seems like an off the top of the head decision. Were simply not prepared for millions of people to return to work, and still keep social distancing.
 
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The message is to return to work, but not use public transport, as seen from the photos this morning, thats hardly worked out well. Although, I would be interested to see photos from the tube just before the PMs message yesterday for comparison. Whilst its easy to say, yeah well people are idiots, they're being told to return to work, and public transport for many is their only option. That is what is confusing for many.

Edit: Its not perhaps that the message is confusing, but rather it seems like an off the top of the head decision. Were simply not prepared for millions of people to return to work, and still keep social distancing.

But was the message ever to stay home no matter what? Certain businesses were told to close down but as far as I'm aware others could always continue to work. I don't do a 9-5 now but I do know that the last lot I worked for are still working "almost" normally but with social distancing and hand washing etc and reduced visits from outsiders, customers and suppliers etc.

And I'm not saying people are idiots but that is one possible explanation.

I do think that some are deliberately taking a confused position and perhaps there's a bubble effect among people who aren't quite as clever as they think they are? I don't know what I want to believe. I don't want to believe that people are so challenged that they just don't get the seriousness of the situation and see street parties and group hugs (really?) as perfectly reasonable things to be involved in. I don't want to believe that some may see this as an opportunity to create fud for political reasons. I don't want to believe that I'm completely out of step. Maybe it's a combination of all of these things with still others being too easily lead and influenced by people who really should know better.
 
Heres a point, valid I think. If someone catches covid-19 from returning back to an unsafe workplace, will they be able to claim industrial injury?

The unsolicited phone calls could start any day now.

A few years ago I was pestered about industrial deafness I'd apparently suffered and I never knew where that came from.
 
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I’m sure what you take from the statement is in there but I, and it seems most people, think the change from the headline “stay at home “ to the vague “stay alert” is what the great intelligent creme-egg-stuffing British public will “see” :(.

All I know is that what I heard last night on the tv seemed clear to me but I woke up to radio 5 and morning tv programs saying they were very confused and this came as a surprise to me. This site seems to be split between those who got a pretty clear message, like me, and those who seem as confused as R5 and ITV.

The stance of the slice of mainstream media I've been exposed to may have created confusion in the minds of people listening and viewing and I can only guess what facebook and twitter are like. I'd guess the message there is the confused one.
 
But didn't he say words to the effect of go to work if you can do so safely? I can't remember the exact words but wasn't that the message? If it was is Boris to blame because people are too stupid and/or irresponsible to act safely? It would seem so.

The comment about toilet paper and people wiping their own arses seems apt.

But hang on. There's politics to consider. That's the important thing not c19 or people dying. So, he's an idiot and this confused message has wasted all the good work and put us all in danger.

There. I'm in step right on message now.
Some people just don't have the ability to process a change in instruction. This is only after 6 weeks as well. Imagine what it would be like if they were spoon fed and arse wiped for another 3 or 6 weeks. They're like those goats that faint and fall over when introduced to something new. ;)
 
That's all well and good but how many will have bothered to look up the additional information and will just be going by what they heard him say last night.

We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.

We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.

So work from home if you can, but you should go to work if you can’t work from home.

You can sit in the sun in your local park, you can drive to other destinations, you can even play sports but only with members of your own household.

These are all direct exerts from last nights speech and this is what some people will have heard.
I agree that we have to find a way through the current situation but in my opinion this was poorly thought-out and executed and it creates more confusion and uncertainty at a time were what the country requires is leadership and direction.

I am not sure it is vague or confusing - if you can WFH then carry on, if not then you should go to work! If I want to drive to the beach I can, as long as I dont mix and follow distancing rules etc... Pretty clear.
 
Or in shorter terms. Supermarkets are now well stocked with toilet rolls, it's time to start wiping your own arses again. ;)

.... :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Brilliant! And so very true!
 
This is is the way you present statistical models in words. The "+" doesn't mean "add" it means "plus", and just tells you what terms included in the model.

It tells you nothing about the coefficients used to derive the value on the left, ie what gets done to the number of infections value before its added to the R value

So it's really only saying that the alert value will be arrived at, through "some combination" of R and the number of infections.

I've learned something new today! Do you have any links where this guidance is written or other models described in this way?
 
That's all well and good but how many will have bothered to look up the additional information and will just be going by what they heard him say last night.

We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.

We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.

So work from home if you can, but you should go to work if you can’t work from home.

You can sit in the sun in your local park, you can drive to other destinations, you can even play sports but only with members of your own household.

These are all direct exerts from last nights speech and this is what some people will have heard.
I agree that we have to find a way through the current situation but in my opinion this was poorly thought-out and executed and it creates more confusion and uncertainty at a time were what the country requires is leadership and direction.


It was a 10 minute slot, what did you expect. You can find fault if you look for it, trying having your glass half full....
 
The whole things simple, he's (very) vaguely laid out his roadmap, he used words like "sketch" and another that I can't remember too and none of this will have helped the confusion.

However, the biggest balls up is quite frankly the fact that he's announced a "get back to work if safe" message with none of the detail to come until Wednesday? That in itself is just stupidity.
 
This seems really stupid!!!

Asked if someone could meet more than two people at different times, for example their mother in the morning and father in the afternoon, Mr Raab said: "Outside in the outdoors, staying 2m apart, yes."

However, the UK government put out a clarification saying people can only meet one person outside at a time - not two people, such as both parents, at the same time.


So, my wife cant go to the park to meet her mum & dad for example, she has to meet with one, then later with the other. Seeing as they both live in the same house, whats the problem?
 
This seems really stupid!!!

Asked if someone could meet more than two people at different times, for example their mother in the morning and father in the afternoon, Mr Raab said: "Outside in the outdoors, staying 2m apart, yes."

However, the UK government put out a clarification saying people can only meet one person outside at a time - not two people, such as both parents, at the same time.

So, my wife cant go to the park to meet her mum & dad for example, she has to meet with one, then later with the other. Seeing as they both live in the same house, whats the problem?


The context is that the Mum & Dad lived in different households, they were divorced...
 
The Guardian has reported on a worrying example of what many people, including those struggling to even feed their children, might see as corrupt practice: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-133m-coronavirus-testing-contract-unopposed

There might be good reasons behind the granting of the contract but paying a serving MP £500 per hour is not going to sit well with many people.
The £500/hr or £100k per year has nothing to do with the contract. The company pay him that regardless of the contract.
 
The context is that the Mum & Dad lived in different households, they were divorced...
I'm not sure thats the case a government spokesperson on the BBC said

..........a government official has told the BBC the new guidance will say you can meet one person from outside your own household in a park, if you stay 2m (6ft) apart

That may very well change soon, but thats how it is as it stands
 
I'm not sure thats the case a government spokesperson on the BBC said

..........a government official has told the BBC the new guidance will say you can meet one person from outside your own household in a park, if you stay 2m (6ft) apart

That may very well change soon, but thats how it is as it stands

So, for a government trying to encourage us to use common sense, there is an awful lot of common sense lacking!!!
 
It was a 10 minute slot, what did you expect. You can find fault if you look for it, trying having your glass half full....

I got just what I suspected a poorly thought-out and badly executed rambling speech full of the usual bluster and bravado. You do not have to look very hard it sort of hits you right between the eye's. It has nothing to do with half full or half empty at times like these the country are looking to our leaders for leadership, they have had weeks to come up with a cohesive plan and the very least I would expect from any government is that they do things in such a way as to give the country confidence. Discuss and consult come up with a plan speak with the relevant agencies to ensure that things are in place to implement said plan pass any legislation required by said plan, publish said plan and present to parliament then give a speech about the implementation of the plan to public, not start with a speech to the public and then work backwards, as this just causes confusion and uncertainty, just look at the various interpretation we have had so far from government ministers if they can't agree what chance us.
 
No confusion here in Scotland as we are basically as you were.
Having spoken (at a distance [emoji51]) to several neighbours, many are saying there are now enjoying sitting in the sun whilst being on furlough which is a bit worrying for the future economy[emoji41].
 
I've learned something new today! Do you have any links where this guidance is written or other models described in this way?

I wouldn't describe it as guidance, just the way people build statistical models, but I can give you another example. I'm already worried about how long this might be :-(

To be topical, let's use an example of how big a difference is there in the risk of dying from CV-19 in the UK compared to other countries.

You start by framing the question that should answer the question posed, e,g For someone alive on the 1st January 2020 what is the risk of them being dead on the 31st December 2020 from Covid-19.

You are interested in knowing how people have "responded" to all the things that might have affected their mortality during that defined period. But first you need to know how to measure the "thing" you are interested in knowing about, and in this case, its "is a person dead or alive". This then gives us the "Response variable" for the model, which we can call mortality, which it goes on the left hand side of the model and contains a variable that can be either "yes" or "no"

On the right-hand side of the model, you add the "explanatory variables". These are explanatory variables because they explain the response recorded in the response variable.

This gives a model structure of:

Response Variable = Explanatory variable 1 + Explanatory variable 2 + explanatory variable 3.. + error.

The error is the bit of what is happening to the response variable that the model can't explain. So these are things that are affecting the mortality but you haven't included in the model. Normally things you simply don't know about. e.g. it may be that having red hair (possibly as a genetic indicator) is a good predictor of mortality, but you didn't think of it, so ts not included in the model, and becomes rolled up with all the other unknowns contained in the "error" term.

Deciding what explanatory variables are included in the model (and how they are measured) is the crucial starting point for a model.

But lets' say we end up with a model in the form of:

Mortaility = Country + age + sex + ethnic group +. covid19 + underlying condition

So now you need to collect the data for these variables. For every country, you will need to get data for a sample of people, and for every person, in the sample, you will need to get the information required by the model, e.g there age on the age on the 1st January 2020, their sex etc, and this data is then fed into the statistical software to run the model.

The linear models that I am familiar with, essentially look at the strength of correlations between each of the explanatory variables to the response variable and give you a number (the coefficient) that quantifies that relationship. And in this case, you can add up the results from the explanatory variables to give a "probability of being dead"

So to make it simple I will assume that a probability of 100% is definitely being dead (percentages aren't probability but its easier to work with).

For the age variable in the model, you might get a coefficient of 0.1%. This means that for every year someone gets older there risk of being dead in that 12 month period increases by 0.1%

For sex, you might have coefficient of 3, meaning that men have a 3% greater risk of being dead than women.

If you had tested positive for COVID, that might increase your risks by 15% (coefficient of 15)

If you had an underlying condition this might increase your risks by 35% (coefficient of 35)

Each country and each ethnic group would have its own coefficients generated by the model


So if you want to work out the risk of 65 year old man, from a specific country and ethnic group, without an underlying health condition, but who had tested positive for COVID, you would add up the results.

Mortaility = Country + age + sex + ethnic group +. covid19 + underlying condition, which becomes

risk of being dead = 2 (UK) + 0.1x 65 (age) + 3(sex) + 0,2 (ethnic group) + 15(covid positive) + 0 (underlying condition)


So 2+6.5+3+0.2+15. = 26.7

This means there is about a 30% risk that a person selected randomly from the UK population with these characteristics, will be dead at the end of the 12 month period and 70% chance (risk) of him being alive.

The model gives confidence intervals around these numbers (measures of uncertainty about the results), so in practice, you would end up with numbers that look more like, a 15% to 45% chance of being dead and a 35% to 85% chance of being alive.

But you can also compare the coefficients of individual variables e.g the country variable. So if the coefficient for the UK was 10 and the coefficient for Italy was 5. You could conclude that the risk of dying in the UK is double the risk of dying in Italy, after you take into account the effect of age, sex, ethnic group, underlying condition and whether a person tested positive for COVID 19.

This is also an opportunity to misrepresent the stats. If you look at the example above of doubling from 5 to 10, and look at the scale of the other coefficients, then this is an important difference between countries.

However, if the difference went from 0.005 to 0.01, this would still be doubling, but the effect is so small from either country, that you could safely disregard the differences between countries, and conclude the country you live in isn't that important in terms of living or dying from COVID-19.

I hope that makes sense, and maybe answers your question, but get back to me if all I've done is confuse you.
 
I got just what I suspected a poorly thought-out and badly executed rambling speech full of the usual bluster and bravado. You do not have to look very hard it sort of hits you right between the eye's. It has nothing to do with half full or half empty at times like these the country are looking to our leaders for leadership, they have had weeks to come up with a cohesive plan and the very least I would expect from any government is that they do things in such a way as to give the country confidence. Discuss and consult come up with a plan speak with the relevant agencies to ensure that things are in place to implement said plan pass any legislation required by said plan, publish said plan and present to parliament then give a speech about the implementation of the plan to public, not start with a speech to the public and then work backwards, as this just causes confusion and uncertainty, just look at the various interpretation we have had so far from government ministers if they can't agree what chance us.

I didn't see anything vague (although the go to work Monday - now Wednesday was a cock up). The country were asking for a roll out plan, he provided rough outlines, then everybody jumps on the "not enough detail" bandwagon.

All the media do is stoke the fire, they have no interest in actually reporting any "news". Just look at the twaddle the BBC have come out about German cases sky rocketing, which just isn't true, verified by friends in Germany....
 
I. Just look at the twaddle the BBC have come out about German cases sky rocketing, which just isn't true, verified by friends in Germany....
You don’t give any reference for “skyrocketing” nor for your German sources though you tell us to “look” at them :(.
This BBC report of rising cases in Germany : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52604676 quotes a German source: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...chte/2020-05-10-en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

which gives: ”The current estimate is R= 1.13 (95% prediction interval: 0.94- 1.35) and is based on electronically notified cases as of 10/05/2020, 12:00 AM.”
 
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