The virus. PPE. Part 1

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RWDW said:
Maybe you have some 'inside information' to back this statement up with some facts rather than just speculation that the Government haven't taken the advice of their experts - only listened to it and have done something different off their own backs.
I do find it odd if that is the case that the medical advisors are willing to share a platform with Government ministers every day and answer questions. Surely when the Ministers say we are being guided by the science they would say 'well actually you are not because we didn't advise that at all'.
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You continue to show your naivety but hide it well behind a combination of pro tory bluster and buffoonery. Hmmmmm that does remind me of someone.....
 
Donnie said:
You continue to show your naivety but hide it well behind a combination of pro tory bluster and buffoonery. Hmmmmm that does remind me of someone.....
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It is curious that some of the more political contributions from different posters in various threads have a remarkably similar tone.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
They have and it's both appalling and heartbreaking.

We should be utterly ashamed that we ignored all of the advice that could have prevented this. Not trying to claim we shouldn't hold our Govt to account over it or not criticize it.

To not question if we should have done things better, to swallow the Govts line that our response has been a success and we've avoided a tragedy, is far more disrespectful than saying that we could probably have avoided that many deaths if we'd listened to both the WHO and other countries, AND our own impact assessments into how we could deal with a pandemic.
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Not to divert from getting answers, or saying that it’s acceptable but broadly speaking have our government performed much worse than the likes of Spain, Italy, France etc... is there similar criticism in Italy and Belgium for example whose death rate per million is worse than us (last I looked) or countries that were similar (again last I looked I believe Ireland were close)

Of course we shouldnt aspire to be bottom or mediocre and could have done many things better, but I don’t believe we are significantly worse are we?

As I have said though we can’t just look at figures and say good or bad. I don’t know if thus applies to us but if a country has lots more people with health conditions or old population and they get it they will have a lot if deaths. Sure I read that Germany average infection age was quite a bit lower than us (now wherever that’s through good policy or demographic and luck I don’t know)
 
Retune said:
They said they were initially shocked to discover Cummings was taking part in a meeting of supposedly independent scientific experts.
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This sort of underhand dealing seems to be typical of the behaviour of the current government. In an emergency such as this, it shouldn't be tolerated.

The first question is whether, when things calm down, the country as a whole will reflect on the number of people who have died prematurely. The second question is whether they will then demand punishment for those who allowed political ambitions to over-ride proper concern for the safety of our citizens.
 
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myotis said:
But, again valid as these points may be, none of it is relevant to the very simple and single point I was making, ie Boris wasn't talking about wearing of face masks, he was talking about face-coverings other than face masks. Maybe I didn't go enough posts back before commenting, to realise what you were trying to say.
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I think if this becomes formal policy, how 'face covering' is interpreted will depend on how the advice is framed. In some countries, a scarf is an acceptable minimum standard, but proper masks are also fine. In others, like France, strong action was taken to preserve medical stocks by making proper masks available only on prescription and seizing black market supplies. I doubt we'd do the latter, but I suspect that if they are required there will necessarily be a strong emphasis on improvised masks - the BBC will probably run a jolly Blue Peter style public information film on making your own from a T-shirt, or a special edition of The Great British Sewing Bee.
 
cambsno said:
Not to divert from getting answers, or saying that it’s acceptable but broadly speaking have our government performed much worse than the likes of Spain, Italy, France etc... is there similar criticism in Italy and Belgium for example whose death rate per million is worse than us (last I looked) or countries that were similar (again last I looked I believe Ireland were close)

Of course we shouldnt aspire to be bottom or mediocre and could have done many things better, but I don’t believe we are significantly worse are we?



As I have said though we can’t just look at figures and say good or bad. I don’t know if thus applies to us but if a country has lots more people with health conditions or old population and they get it they will have a lot if deaths. Sure I read that Germany average infection age was quite a bit lower than us (now wherever that’s through good policy or demographic and luck I don’t know)
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But why compare against the others who have suffered just as badly and not those that haven't?


South Korea has an older population than us, similar population and density. And the main difference seems to be the rapid and aggressive testing and tracing from day 1. And it was the WHO advice from the very start of it spreading.

We are only now looking to introduce that when there's far too many infections to track.
 
cambsno said:
Not to divert from getting answers, or saying that it’s acceptable but broadly speaking have our government performed much worse than the likes of Spain, Italy, France etc... is there similar criticism in Italy and Belgium for example whose death rate per million is worse than us (last I looked) or countries that were similar (again last I looked I believe Ireland were close)
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I don't think anyone could say with confidence exactly where we are in the list of worst 5 countries in the world at the moment, but that's not a club we want to be a member of at all.
 
RWDW said:
Polls carried out for editorials are usually heavilly biased; the readership of The observer is 'left wing' in the main so polling their readers will give a huge slant on the statistics.
The YouGov poll I linked to was carried out independently as was the other poll in statista.
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What about Ipsos Mori are they allowed or are they just another biased company with a government hating agenda.
 
Retune said:
I think if this becomes formal policy, how 'face covering' is interpreted will depend on how the advice is framed. .
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I suspect there may well be a clue in how the formal policy will be framed in England by looking at the formal guidance from Scotland I linked to in my earlier post.

I have given up trying to work out what formal "UK" guidance is, as UK wide advice seems difficult to identify. Most of what comes from the UK Government seems to be England only, which as I have suggested before, is probably a penalty of us not having an English Government.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Unfortunately this thread is now less about the virus and more about politics.
27,500 poor souls have lost their lives.
Time to show some respect.....
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Closer to 240,000. Worldwide. Even the UK figure is too many - on a worldwide scale.
 
I think it is an inescapable fact that the Government has made some early errors in the 'unfolding' of this pandemic and one huge error that to a certain extent is ongoing.

I refer to losing the one major inbuilt advantage that we have over many other nations ? We are an island and it is relatively easy to close our borders.

We didn't and we still haven't ? from the early days of many thousands of Madrid supporters coming to Liverpool. (This after Spain had closed nurseries, schools and universities
and public events of more than 1,000 people had been banned in Madrid)

Even now we allow travellers into the UK without quarantine when almost every country in the world now has some form of entry restriction. (April) According to Pew Research, 93% of the world’s population now lives in countries or territories that are the subject of travel restrictions.

Countries with travel restrictions A huge list of countries with the UK notably absent.

People promote the argument " it's too late the virus is here " what a sad perspective, it wasn't always endemic and even now incoming 'carriers' can bring the virus to virus free
rural parts of the country (I live in one) It is now widely acknowledged that people can have and spread the virus while being healthy and symptomless themselves
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
But why compare against the others who have suffered just as badly and not those that haven't?


South Korea has an older population than us, similar population and density. And the main difference seems to be the rapid and aggressive testing and tracing from day 1. And it was the WHO advice from the very start of it spreading.

We are only now looking to introduce that when there's far too many infections to track.
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So the question is why did not many other similar countries follow SK? Why did so many fall into the other camp?
 
Anyone thinking that face masks being compulsory could be an ideal opportunity to rob a bank and not look suspicious [emoji19]
 
This thread like so many others is painful to read as it's just full of closed minds, entrenched views and political bias.

I'm all for critisising the govt. when justified but it's disappointing that some reserve their critisism for one party only and are silent or worse excuses for others.
 
cambsno said:
Anyone thinking that face masks being compulsory could be an ideal opportunity to rob a bank and not look suspicious [emoji19]
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Not that long ago face coverings were being touted (by none other than our PM) as outraigious or letter boxes and not part of our culture, funny how things take a turn when the advantage shifts isn't it?
 
woof woof said:
This thread like so many others is painful to read as it's just full of closed minds, entrenched views and political bias.

I'm all for critisising the govt. when justified but it's disappointing that some reserve their critisism for one party only and are silent or worse excuses for others.
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Bit difficult to criticise any other party with regards to how the current crisis has been/is being handled as there's only one party that makes up the government.
 
Retune said:
'However, the two other Sage attendees the Guardian spoke to painted a different picture to that presented by No 10, which has been striving to play down the influence of the two advisers. Both Sage attendees declined to be named. “I have been concerned sometimes that Sage has become too operational, so we’ve ended up looking as though we are making decisions,” one of them said, making clear that Cummings had been involved on those occasions. “It contravenes previous guidelines about how you make sure you get impartial scientific advice going through to politicians, who make the decisions.” Referring to both Cummings and Warner, the Sage attendee added: “When a very senior civil servant or a very well-connected person interrupts, then I don’t think anyone in the room feels the power to stop it. When you get to discussing where advice might be going, there have been occasions where they have been involved, and a couple of times I’ve thought: that’s not what we are supposed to be doing.” A second Sage attendee said Cummings had played an active role meetings from February onwards. They said they were initially shocked to discover Cummings was taking part in a meeting of supposedly independent scientific experts. “He was not just an observer, he’s listed as an active participant,” the source said. “He was engaging in conversation and not sitting silently.” The second attendee said Cumming’s involvement was worrying because of his reputation in Whitehall and the questions his participation raises about Sage’s role as a neutral body of expert advisers.'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tings-worried-by-presence-of-dominic-cummings
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That just says he has actively taken part by asking questions. Not even an accusation of having taken over meetings.
AndrewFlannigan said:
This sort of underhand dealing seems to be typical of the behaviour of the current government. In an emergency such as this, it shouldn't be tolerated.

The first question is whether, when things calm down, the country as a whole will reflect on the number of people who have died prematurely. The second question is whether they will then demand punishment for those who allowed political ambitions to over-ride proper concern for the safety of our citizens.
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Why is it underhand. Who exactly do you think is going to be acting on any outcome from those meetings? The government, that's who. Surely it is better to have a government representative in the meetings asking questions to get a better understanding of any actions they may need to take.
 
woof woof said:
This thread like so many others is painful to read as it's just full of closed minds, entrenched views and political bias.

I'm all for critisising the govt. when justified but it's disappointing that some reserve their critisism for one party only and are silent or worse excuses for others.
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Well you're not going to advance your echo chamber politics using an open mind are you.
But tbf, the Gov in power is the point of focus.
It is certainly true that that salty echo chamber cares nothing for justified or fair critique, but you know who they are and you don't have to read them.
 
mex said:
Not that long ago face coverings were being touted (by none other than our PM) as outraigious or letter boxes and not part of our culture, funny how things take a turn when the advantage shifts isn't it?
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Jeremy, is that you?
 
mex said:
Not that long ago face coverings were being touted (by none other than our PM) as outraigious or letter boxes and not part of our culture, funny how things take a turn when the advantage shifts isn't it?
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Completely different reasons. One could possibly save lives, the other is an outdated viewpoint degrading to women.

Seriously, I hate Boris, I think he is bad for the country but criticise when it’s due but for the sake of it.
 
woof woof said:
This thread like so many others is painful to read as it's just full of closed minds, entrenched views and political bias.

I'm all for critisising the govt. when justified but it's disappointing that some reserve their critisism for one party only and are silent or worse excuses for others.
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Some do, I don't as evidenced a 3 weeks ago.

Donnie said:
Well, considering the Tories hid a report on Excercise Cygnus 4 years ago on how the country would cope with a pandemic and then did nothing about it Id say people have good reason to blame the Tories as they were the ones in power at that time, if it had been Labour Id hate them too!
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Just seen Eurostar are insisting on face coverings if you use their service.
Hope that's relaxed before my next trip, booked on an Amsterdam direct train and it's over 4 hours.
 
I don't mind a bit of anarchy but it's the thought that lockdown busters may be infecting people and causing deaths and maybe long term health issues for innocents and front line workers that makes me think unkind thoughts... If the UK gets contact tracing up and running it'd be absolutely lovely to see anyone who behaves recklessly and can be (as good as can be) proved to have infected others prosecuted, named and shamed. If they have any.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
South Korea has an older population than us, similar population and density. And the main difference seems to be the rapid and aggressive testing and tracing from day 1. And it was the WHO advice from the very start of it spreading.

.
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but unfortunately they have had SARS and possibly other respiratory diseases in the recent past ,therefore they knew what to expect and how to deal with it .with us with simply didn't believe it was as bad as it was and how fast it could spread . to little to late and extremely hard for a fresh off the grid government to comprehend .. just thank your lucky stars corny corbyn didn't get in , or the only excuse would have been we gave you free broadband init ...
 
the black fox said:
but unfortunately they have had SARS and possibly other respiratory diseases in the recent past ,therefore they knew what to expect and how to deal with it .with us with simply didn't believe it was as bad as it was and how fast it could spread . to little to late and extremely hard for a fresh off the grid government to comprehend .. just thank your lucky stars corny corbyn didn't get in , or the only excuse would have been we gave you free broadband init ...
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South Korea had fewer SARS cases than the UK, which was hardly any. They did have a MERS outbreak in 2015, which caused 38 deaths. This did not originate in South Korea or a neighbouring country, but was brought in by someone who had been on a business trip in the Middle East. Every country in the world should have learnt the lesson that these viruses do not respect borders and an outbreak can happen anywhere, but many did not. It really shouldn't take a burnt hand to teach.
 
the black fox said:
but unfortunately they have had SARS and possibly other respiratory diseases in the recent past ,therefore they knew what to expect and how to deal with it .with us with simply didn't believe it was as bad as it was and how fast it could spread . to little to late and extremely hard for a fresh off the grid government to comprehend .. just thank your lucky stars corny corbyn didn't get in , or the only excuse would have been we gave you free broadband init ...
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Corbyn couldn't have done a worse job. As of tomorrow we'll have the most deaths in Europe.

And you hit the nail on the head, some countries have experienced this before and knew how to act.
We chose to ignore their actions and do the opposite

"But Corbyn......"
 
cambsno said:
So the question is why did not many other similar countries follow SK? Why did so many fall into the other camp?
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Putting the economy first? Didn't believe the warnings?

I don't think we'll ever know unless there's a proper inquiry afterwards.

By tomorrow we're likely to have the second highest number of deaths in the world and I find that utterly appalling.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Putting the economy first? Didn't believe the warnings?

I don't think we'll ever know unless there's a proper inquiry afterwards.

By tomorrow we're likely to have the second highest number of deaths in the world and I find that utterly appalling.
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Maybe if other countries had more deaths at the start we and others may have taken it more seriously.

I think it’s more complex than just saying is having more deaths than most is appalling. As one of the most populated counties in Europe, as well as being a major hub, plus density etc... it’s no wonder we are near the top.

For example we are 3rd in the obesity charts for Europe. That will have an impact based on initial analysis. All things being equal, that alone will mean we get more deaths than say France.

Number of deaths per million is more relevant anyway. Although we are near the top
Of that too.
 
Can some one explain this to me.
"Commuters will be asked to check their temperatures before travelling to prevent a second spike of infections when coronavirus lockdown rules are eased, it has been reported"

"Professor Jonathan Van-Tam said a “basic problem” with port entry checks was they would not pick up cases of people infected overseas but who were yet to display any Covid-19 symptoms. He said the virus had an incubation period of up to 14 days, meaning that someone with the disease could still “sail” through any screening as they would not necessarily show signs of a fever"

So for nearly six weeks of supposed lockdown we have let people arrive into the UK in there 10's of thousands daily without any screening or quarantining because the virus had a incubation period of up to 14 days so checking their temperature would have been ineffectual yet it is supposed to be effectual when people start commuting when lockdown rules are eased.
 
tarric said:
Can some one explain this to me.
"Commuters will be asked to check their temperatures before travelling to prevent a second spike of infections when coronavirus lockdown rules are eased, it has been reported"

"Professor Jonathan Van-Tam said a “basic problem” with port entry checks was they would not pick up cases of people infected overseas but who were yet to display any Covid-19 symptoms. He said the virus had an incubation period of up to 14 days, meaning that someone with the disease could still “sail” through any screening as they would not necessarily show signs of a fever"

So for nearly six weeks of supposed lockdown we have let people arrive into the UK in there 10's of thousands daily without any screening or quarantining because the virus had a incubation period of up to 14 days so checking their temperature would have been ineffectual yet it is supposed to be effectual when people start commuting when lockdown rules are eased.
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There maybe more to it than just taking your temperature.
On the day I return to work, I will have to answer some questions online, that my employer is providing. I assume it will be whether I have been in contact with anyone with the virus within last 14 days and things like that. If all questions are answered positively, I then get an email with a coloured "pass" ( each day will have a different coloured pass) I can then go to work, when I pass the security gate, I show the pass and they allow me in. When I enter the building, I will have my temperature checked, if ok they let me in and issue me with some PPE and a thermometer. For following days, I will be able to check my own temperature and fill in the form before leaving home, if ok, I go to work and go through the same entry process.
Public transport users may have to do something similar.
 
I would like to think that your right, will wait and see.
This still doesn't answer this bit though, “basic problem” with port entry checks was they would not pick up cases of people infected overseas but who were yet to display any Covid-19 symptoms. He said the virus had an incubation period of up to 14 days.
Commuters will be asked to check their temperatures before travelling to prevent a second spike of infections. If there is a 14 day incubation period you could be commuting to work unaware that you are infectious. I understand that for some this will not be a problem but for people using public transport in places like London I don't get it.
 
China seemed quite happy with just checking temperatures. Not only before their lockdown, but when it was lifted.
 
tarric said:
Can some one explain this to me.
"Commuters will be asked to check their temperatures before travelling to prevent a second spike of infections when coronavirus lockdown rules are eased, it has been reported"

"Professor Jonathan Van-Tam said a “basic problem” with port entry checks was they would not pick up cases of people infected overseas but who were yet to display any Covid-19 symptoms. He said the virus had an incubation period of up to 14 days, meaning that someone with the disease could still “sail” through any screening as they would not necessarily show signs of a fever"

So for nearly six weeks of supposed lockdown we have let people arrive into the UK in there 10's of thousands daily without any screening or quarantining because the virus had a incubation period of up to 14 days so checking their temperature would have been ineffectual yet it is supposed to be effectual when people start commuting when lockdown rules are eased.
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Yet if we go out too long we are castigated.
 
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