The virus. PPE. Part 1

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The Guardian is just a left of centre opinion piece trying to make news out of nothing.

You can find opinion polls that can say anything but that opinion poll says nothing about about thegoverment doing a bad job TBH.

The real test is what happened at the General election - I'm sure the Conservatives won more seats than the Corbyn led Labour party; I may be mistaken though?
 
Again the ongoing failings from the left wing; the attitude that our Politics is correct so everyone else must be stupid falling for the propoganda. (Shallow minded suckers you call them) :rolleyes:




First - not so sure how many people in these countries follow the politics of the UK that closely to make an opinion poll viable/reliable, second - they can't vote in a UK general election so it matters not one iota what they think.

Comparing what has happened in different countries around the world is so pointless as there are so many factors at play.
Lol

It's types of people like this poster that would be shouting from the rooftops if Germany and Angela Merkel were managing the situation badly...
It's the same virus in case people haven't noticed, and the comparisons drawn are with nearby countries with similar wealth, populations, large cities, affected at the same time, given the same warnings, all western democracies etc.
 
I no the Guardian sets you of that's the reason for using it but the poll is from Opinium the most accurate research agency in the 2019 UK General Election, the 2016 London Mayoral Election and the EU Referendum. I didn't expect you to read the article after all it is the Guardian but I thought you might at least have looked at the pictures.

Question 1: Do you think the government has acted fast enough to prevent the spread of coronavirus? Answer NO 63%, YES 30%
2: To what extent do you approve, or disapprove, of the government’s handling of testing during the outbreak so far? Answer DISAPPROVE 57%, APPROVE 15%, NEITHER 20%.
I'll leave you to look at the others for your self.

You seem pretty fond of opinion poll when they agree with your agenda.
 
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Lol

It's types of people like this poster that would be shouting from the rooftops if Germany and Angela Merkel were managing the situation badly
...
It's the same virus in case people haven't noticed, and the comparisons drawn are with nearby countries with similar wealth, populations, large cities, affected at the same time, given the same warnings, all western democracies etc.

Conjecture, speculation and presumption - good qualities for a fact based discussion :clap:
 
I no the Guardian sets you of that's the reason for using it but the poll is from Opinium the most accurate research agency in the 2019 UK General Election, the 2016 London Mayoral Election and the EU Referendum. I didn't expect you to read the article after all it is the Guardian but I thought you might at least have looked at the pictures.

Question 1: Do you think the government has acted fast enough to prevent the spread of coronavirus? Answer NO 63%, YES 30%
2: To what extent do you approve, or disapprove, of the government’s handling of testing during the outbreak so far? Answer DISAPPROVE 57%, APPROVE 15%, NEITHER 20%.
I'll leave you to look at the others for your self.

You seem pretty fond of opinion poll when they agree with your agenda.

Shock, horror! An opinion poll for a left wing publication produces the result the readers want!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-observer/

I actually said the 'acid test' was how people vote - again when did we have a left wing government in the UK?
 
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Surely our Prime Minister can't be wrong?! The current WHO advice is rather equivocal - the main arguments against are the risks of creating shortages for healthcare workers, self-contamination through improper use, and perhaps giving a false sense of security. But while it's unclear if there's worthwhile protection for the wearer, there's better evidence for protection from the wearer: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

But he isn't advocating wearing masks, at least he wasn't in the briefing yesterday. I didn't hear what was said today.

He essentially repeated what Nicola Sturgeon had said earlier in the day (which mirrored what you have just said) and where she suggested that using some sort of face covering, such as a scarf in enclosed spaces such as public transport, might reduce the risk of you passing on the virus to others, and worth doing, but that PPE should be left for use by healthcare workers.

But she also emphasised the uncertainty over how effective this (or PPE ) in these circumstances would be, and unlikely to offer the wearer any protection, so they should not become complacent about social distancing just because they had their nose and mouth covered.

Boris didn't really explain it as well as the FM did, or in as much detail, but he did make it clear he was talking about something like a scarf and not PPE.
 
But he isn't advocating wearing masks, at least he wasn't in the briefing yesterday. I didn't hear what was said today.

He essentially repeated what Nicola Sturgeon had said earlier in the day (which mirrored what you have just said) and where she suggested that using some sort of face covering, such as a scarf in enclosed spaces such as public transport, might reduce the risk of you passing on the virus to others, and worth doing, but that PPE should be left for use by healthcare workers.

But she also emphasised the uncertainty over how effective this (or PPE ) in these circumstances would be, and unlikely to offer the wearer any protection, so they should not become complacent about social distancing just because they had their nose and mouth covered.

Boris didn't really explain it as well as the FM did, or in as much detail, but he did make it clear he was talking about something like a scarf and not PPE.

Isn't the idea of masks to offer some protection to someone else and not the wearer?
 
It's types of people like this poster that would be shouting from the rooftops if Germany and Angela Merkel were managing the situation badly...
I find it best to put posters that irritate me on ignore. I enjoy disputing with people who have different views from me but are sensible. Otherwise it's just spoiling a thread.

Unless, of course, you know where to send the pipe bomb... :naughty: :exit:
 
He essentially repeated what Nicola Sturgeon had said earlier in the day (which mirrored what you have just said) and where she suggested that using some sort of face covering, such as a scarf in enclosed spaces such as public transport, might reduce the risk of you passing on the virus to others, and worth doing, but that PPE should be left for use by healthcare workers.
Of course a real mask would almost certainly be better than a scarf at protecting others too (that's what surgical masks are intended to do, after all), but the limited supply dictates the makeshift alternative (if we end up doing anything at all).
 
Of course a real mask would almost certainly be better than a scarf at protecting others too (that's what surgical masks are intended to do, after all), but the limited supply dictates the makeshift alternative (if we end up doing anything at all).

Yes, but Boris wasn't advising a real mask at this time and I'm not entirely sure what he was suggesting about a scarf. Matt Hancock apparently dismissed Nicola Sturgeons comments.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ransport-despite-no-uk-wide-decision-11980084

But Boris, I've just discovered said today that the Government (meaning England I assume) was now considering what guidance to offer the public on face-coverings (not masks) which the science suggests has a "weak but positive effect".

The Scottish guidance was issued on the 28th

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-public-use-of-face-coverings/
 
So...........the Government contains politicians very few of which have scientific qualifications (I'd imagine) but they listen to the best scientific advice this country has to offer; these medical advisors know this country better than just an overview from the WHO and the government take the advice of their scientific advisors - sounds sensible to me but obviously not your view.
I don't think the government has always had the very best advice, but I also think they were rather selective in who and what they listened to. There were plenty of senior UK scientists advocating the WHO approach in the crucial period when contact tracing was prematurely abandoned, which is the only thing that has ever really worked in this sort of situation:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/uk-government-coronavirus-science-who-advice

It should have rung alarm bells that the UK's policy made it part of the control group in a global experiment where other countries were going after infected cases much, much more aggressively. In the inevitable enquiry, it will be interesting to see what role Dominic Cummings played in all this. We know he has the ear of the PM, had participated in SAGE meetings to the disquiet of some of the scientists, and was reportedly an advocate of herd immunity before Neil Ferguson's report convinced him a lockdown was necessary. One interesting point to emerge from a recent interview with Ferguson was that the estimate of a quarter of a million dead if the government went no further than light-touch mitigation wasn't new (as I'd previously assumed), only the prediction of the epidemic overwhelming the NHS was. This implies that the government was prepared to countenance very large numbers of deaths as the price of achieving herd immunity, provided they didn't happen over too short a period.
 
Yes, but Boris wasn't advising a real mask at this time and I'm not entirely sure what he was suggesting about a scarf. Matt Hancock apparently dismissed Nicola Sturgeons comments./
This seems like a pretty clear endorsement of 'face coverings':

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...lockdown-is-eased-says-boris-johnson-11981298

I didn't mean to imply that BJ is saying the public should grab the masks that could be put to better use by the NHS, but put it like this - if there were a plentiful supply of real masks, nobody would be suggesting knitting your own. The real shift in policy, if it happens (as you suggest, Hancock seems to have read a different memo) would be to move from 'nothing required in public places' to 'cover your nose and mouth'. With this advice, those who could get hold of real masks would probably use them. In countries that have done this seriously from the start, masks have been purchased centrally for distribution or sale at a subsidised price.
 
So...........the Government contains politicians very few of which have scientific qualifications (I'd imagine) but they listen to the best scientific advice this country has to offer; these medical advisors know this country better than just an overview from the WHO and the government take the advice of their scientific advisors - sounds sensible to me but obviously not your view.

And there you have just shown how naive you are. Big difference between taking the advice and listening to the advice (then making their own decisions anyway)
 
Shock, horror! An opinion poll for a left wing publication produces the result the readers want!

Can you kindly supply me with a list of reputable pollsters that are not party members, supporters or donators or work for the Tory party or are they the only ones you believe.

ps
Still waiting to hear about your first hand account on Panorama.
 
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I don't think the government has always had the very best advice, but I also think they were rather selective in who and what they listened to. There were plenty of senior UK scientists advocating the WHO approach in the crucial period when contact tracing was prematurely abandoned, which is the only thing that has ever really worked in this sort of situation:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/uk-government-coronavirus-science-who-advice

It should have rung alarm bells that the UK's policy made it part of the control group in a global experiment where other countries were going after infected cases much, much more aggressively. In the inevitable enquiry, it will be interesting to see what role Dominic Cummings played in all this. We know he has the ear of the PM, had participated in SAGE meetings to the disquiet of some of the scientists, and was reportedly an advocate of herd immunity before Neil Ferguson's report convinced him a lockdown was necessary. One interesting point to emerge from a recent interview with Ferguson was that the estimate of a quarter of a million dead if the government went no further than light-touch mitigation wasn't new (as I'd previously assumed), only the prediction of the epidemic overwhelming the NHS was. This implies that the government was prepared to countenance very large numbers of deaths as the price of achieving herd immunity, provided they didn't happen over too short a period.

So you don't feel the advice given to the Government was correct - and that's the Governments fault. Can I ask what makes you more qualified than the medical advisors to come to this conclusion?
Maybe it's just drawn from a left wing comic like the Guardian who, lets face it can easily find other 'experts' who don't want to agree with the CMO.

And there you have just shown how naive you are. Big difference between taking the advice and listening to the advice (then making their own decisions anyway)

Maybe you have some 'inside information' to back this statement up with some facts rather than just speculation that the Government haven't taken the advice of their experts - only listened to it and have done something different off their own backs.
I do find it odd if that is the case that the medical advisors are willing to share a platform with Government ministers every day and answer questions. Surely when the Ministers say we are being guided by the science they would say 'well actually you are not because we didn't advise that at all'.

Can you kindly supply me with a list of reputable pollsters that are not party members, supporters or donators or work for the Tory party or are they the only ones you believe.

ps
Still waiting to hear about your first hand account on Panorama.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/yougov-general-election-poll-mrp

Polls carried out for editorials are usually heavilly biased; the readership of The observer is 'left wing' in the main so polling their readers will give a huge slant on the statistics.
The YouGov poll I linked to was carried out independently as was the other poll in statista.

I do agree that polls can say what you want but I keep stating the 'acid test' is how people vote; tell me again the last left wing government the UK had; you keep ignoring this.
 
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I find it best to put posters that irritate me on ignore. I enjoy disputing with people who have different views from me but are sensible. Otherwise it's just spoiling a thread.

Unless, of course, you know where to send the pipe bomb... :naughty: :exit:

Good point. This new fella has certainly come in with an attitude of bring an irritant.
 
This seems like a pretty clear endorsement of 'face coverings':

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...lockdown-is-eased-says-boris-johnson-11981298

I didn't mean to imply that BJ is saying the public should grab the masks that could be put to better use by the NHS, but put it like this - if there were a plentiful supply of real masks, nobody would be suggesting knitting your own.

It does, but I've lost the point you are making, I thought you were criticising his advice to wear "face masks" given that this would take them away from health care workers and weren't that effective anyway, BUT his advice wasn't/isn't to wear "face masks" but to wear a "knit your own" face covering, as you called it.

Your argument about this still maybe resulting in people wearing face masks, and that we shouldn't be in a position of being short of them, may well be valid, but it's a different point to the one I thought you were making. I obviously thought, that you thought, Boris said "masks" as you responded to a post that said "masks" and you talked about this taking masks away from health workers.
 
Shock, horror! An opinion poll for a left wing publication produces the result the readers want!

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-observer/

I actually said the 'acid test' was how people vote - again when did we have a left wing government in the UK?

How does "how people vote at a GE" have any bearing on the current crisis? Are you suggesting we hold a GE over the summer to see how badly the public think they're managing it?

Or should we look at the fact that 27000 people are dead and Boris called that avoiding a tragedy?
 
So you don't feel the advice given to the Government was correct - and that's the Governments fault. Can I ask what makes you more qualified than the medical advisors to come to this conclusion?
Maybe it's just drawn from a left wing comic like the Guardian who, lets face it can easily find other 'experts' who don't want to agree with the CMO.


I don't think you understand, or the Govt are being honest about the scientific advice works. Even if we ignore the fact that Cummings has been there, actively participated and influenced outcomes, there is no "the science" or "the advice".

The science will give the Govt several models of potential outcomes, based on imposing different measures.

So the medical advisors won't have come to a single conclusion.
 
How does "how people vote at a GE" have any bearing on the current crisis? Are you suggesting we hold a GE over the summer to see how badly the public think they're managing it?

Or should we look at the fact that 27000 people are dead and Boris called that avoiding a tragedy?

My contribution started by stating that I thought the Government had performed extremely well which was ridiculed by the centre left posters who dominate this thread. I then produced two polls showing my views were pretty mainstream for the public. The fact is this thread in the main is just a left of centre whinge about the Government based only on the Political stance of the majority of the posters - I then point out that the general public aren't interested in left of centre politics as shown by the last genereal election.

I don't think you understand, or the Govt are being honest about the scientific advice works. Even if we ignore the fact that Cummings has been there, actively participated and influenced outcomes, there is no "the science" or "the advice".

The science will give the Govt several models of potential outcomes, based on imposing different measures.

So the medical advisors won't have come to a single conclusion.

How do you know this? Have you any proof whatsoever that this is happening?

Regarding Cummings being at SAGE - again you are just making things up about his influence at those meetings based on your own prejudice - you don't even know that he has actively participated in them do you?

Please stick to facts rather than your own hatred of the Tory's biasing your posts.
 
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My contribution started by stating that I thought the Government had performed extremely well which was ridiculed by the centre left posters who dominate this thread. I then produced two polls showing my views were pretty mainstream for the public. The fact is this thread in the main is just a left of centre whinge about the Government based only on the Political stance of the majority of the posters - I then point out that the general public aren't interested in left of centre politics as shown by the last genereal election.

[my bold]

I'd ridicule it as well and I'm a lifelong Conservative voter (well, up until 2010 at least). I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a political party, not a football team.

How do you know this? Have you any proof whatsoever that this is happening?

Regarding Cummings being at SAGE - again you are just making things up about his influence at those meetings based on your own prejudice - you don't even know that he has actively participated in them do you?

Please stick to facts rather than your own hatred of the Tory's biasing your posts.

[again, my bold]

And your posts are unbiased?
 
[my bold]

I'd ridicule it as well and I'm a lifelong Conservative voter (well, up until 2010 at least). I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a political party, not a football team.



[again, my bold]

And your posts are unbiased?

LOL

YouGov's poll is independent as is Statisstica's (as was the General Election) - the Poll in the Observer was done for a left of centre publication.

@KitsuneAndy post has NO EVIDENCE whatsoever on theinvolvement of Cummings or how the SAGE advice is delivered or followed.
 
LOL

YouGov's poll is independent as is Statisstica's (as was the General Election) - the Poll in the Observer was done for a left of centre publication.

@KitsuneAndy post has NO EVIDENCE whatsoever on theinvolvement of Cummings or how the SAGE advice is delivered or followed.

What has any of that got to do with my post?
 
Of course a real mask would almost certainly be better than a scarf at protecting others too (that's what surgical masks are intended to do, after all), but the limited supply dictates the makeshift alternative (if we end up doing anything at all).

Just look at what happened when lockdown started. No loo roll or pasta. If face coverings were introduced everyone would panic buy surgical masks!
 
LOL

YouGov's poll is independent as is Statisstica's (as was the General Election) - the Poll in the Observer was done for a left of centre publication.

@KitsuneAndy post has NO EVIDENCE whatsoever on theinvolvement of Cummings or how the SAGE advice is delivered or followed.

Attendees of SAGE meetings have spoken out to the media about Cummings involvement. So there's more evidence of his involvement, than there is of his non-involvement.
 
Unfortunately this thread is now less about the virus and more about politics.
27,500 poor souls have lost their lives.
Time to show some respect.....

They have and it's both appalling and heartbreaking.

We should be utterly ashamed that we ignored all of the advice that could have prevented this. Not trying to claim we shouldn't hold our Govt to account over it or not criticize it.

To not question if we should have done things better, to swallow the Govts line that our response has been a success and we've avoided a tragedy, is far more disrespectful than saying that we could probably have avoided that many deaths if we'd listened to both the WHO and other countries, AND our own impact assessments into how we could deal with a pandemic.
 
It does, but I've lost the point you are making, I thought you were criticising his advice to wear "face masks" given that this would take them away from health care workers and weren't that effective anyway, BUT his advice wasn't/isn't to wear "face masks" but to wear a "knit your own" face covering, as you called it.
My original point was only that (as with resuming contact tracing, releasing tracking apps and ramping up testing) we seemed to be belatedly moving towards a position that other countries adopted from the start. I think, on balance, masks for the public are a sensible idea, if only to protect others from the wearer. Simon questioned whether they are in fact a good idea, quoting WHO advice, which led to my crack about BJ's infallibility (since he now seems to like them) and a discussion about whether masks have disadvantages. I think the most important issue is whether widespread use would worsen the shortage of PPE. With the position we are in, using improvised masks is probably the best that can be done and BJ is right to suggest this. But it would have been far better to anticipate the need earlier and procure a plentiful supply of proper masks, which are probably much more effective. Sorry if I haven't put this coherently before!
 
Regarding Cummings being at SAGE - again you are just making things up about his influence at those meetings based on your own prejudice - you don't even know that he has actively participated in them do you?

'However, the two other Sage attendees the Guardian spoke to painted a different picture to that presented by No 10, which has been striving to play down the influence of the two advisers. Both Sage attendees declined to be named. “I have been concerned sometimes that Sage has become too operational, so we’ve ended up looking as though we are making decisions,” one of them said, making clear that Cummings had been involved on those occasions. “It contravenes previous guidelines about how you make sure you get impartial scientific advice going through to politicians, who make the decisions.” Referring to both Cummings and Warner, the Sage attendee added: “When a very senior civil servant or a very well-connected person interrupts, then I don’t think anyone in the room feels the power to stop it. When you get to discussing where advice might be going, there have been occasions where they have been involved, and a couple of times I’ve thought: that’s not what we are supposed to be doing.” A second Sage attendee said Cummings had played an active role meetings from February onwards. They said they were initially shocked to discover Cummings was taking part in a meeting of supposedly independent scientific experts. “He was not just an observer, he’s listed as an active participant,” the source said. “He was engaging in conversation and not sitting silently.” The second attendee said Cumming’s involvement was worrying because of his reputation in Whitehall and the questions his participation raises about Sage’s role as a neutral body of expert advisers.'


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tings-worried-by-presence-of-dominic-cummings
 
So you don't feel the advice given to the Government was correct - and that's the Governments fault.
That's a distortion of what I said. For further information, please re-read.

Can I ask what makes you more qualified than the medical advisors to come to this conclusion?
Maybe it's just drawn from a left wing comic like the Guardian who, lets face it can easily find other 'experts' who don't want to agree with the CMO.
Yes, you can certainly ask. Maybe you're just posting to get a reaction, as all your contributions to this thread suggest.?
 
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My original point was only that (as with resuming contact tracing, releasing tracking apps and ramping up testing) we seemed to be belatedly moving towards a position that other countries adopted from the start. I think, on balance, masks for the public are a sensible idea, if only to protect others from the wearer. Simon questioned whether they are in fact a good idea, quoting WHO advice, which led to my crack about BJ's infallibility (since he now seems to like them) and a discussion about whether masks have disadvantages. I think the most important issue is whether widespread use would worsen the shortage of PPE. With the position we are in, using improvised masks is probably the best that can be done and BJ is right to suggest this. But it would have been far better to anticipate the need earlier and procure a plentiful supply of proper masks, which are probably much more effective. Sorry if I haven't put this coherently before!

But, again valid as these points may be, none of it is relevant to the very simple and single point I was making, ie Boris wasn't talking about wearing of face masks, he was talking about face-coverings other than face masks. Maybe I didn't go enough posts back before commenting, to realise what you were trying to say.
 
Unfortunately this thread is now less about the virus and more about politics.
27,500 poor souls have lost their lives.
Time to show some respect.....

I concur with that.
At the outset, and for a while thereafter, the virus discussions were very interesting. Some parts remain so, but the interminable banal political chaff that has been aired a million times is wearisome.
 
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