The virus. PPE. Part 1

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nilagin said:
It depends on what the obsession is. Some seem to revel in the number.
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Only that MP is calling it an obsession. Legitimate concerns about the appalling number of deaths are perfectly understandable. I'd reserve disgust for those who appear unconcerned about the fatalities. 'Herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad' (as Dominic Cummings definitely didn't say, according to No 10).
 
Retune said:
Only that MP is calling it an obsession. Legitimate concerns about the appalling number of deaths are perfectly understandable. I'd reserve disgust for those who appear unconcerned about the fatalities. 'Herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad' (as Dominic Cummings definitely didn't say, according to No 10).
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Is it legitimate concerns over the number of fatalities or just an excuse to say how badly the government has handled the situation? They are just using those deaths to back up their arguments as much as they try to convince themselves and others that they aren't.
 
mex said:
An MP has described people's concerns with the fatality rate from Covid-19 in the UK as a "sick obsession". The prick should be sacked.
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Depends on the context - we are not testing (relatively) that many so our fatality rate is appearing higher than it is.
 
Retune said:
I can't say I'm always Owen Jones's biggest fan, but I agree with him here:

'If we can't criticise the government for avoidable deaths, what's the point of democracy?'

'The systematic attempt to stifle even mild attempts by the media to hold government to account is itself dangerous. A fortnight ago, a senior cabinet source told the Telegraph: “We didn’t want to go down this route in the first place – public and media pressure pushed the lockdown, we went with the science.” If there had been more determination by the media to challenge the government’s decision to make Britain an international outlier in the pandemic, lockdown may have happened earlier and thousands of lives could have been spared. Decisions made by our government have left us one of the most devastated nations on Earth. The cost? Personal suffering as thousands of families mourn the loss of loved ones and unnecessarily grave economic and social turmoil. If our democracy cannot hold our government to account for turning an inevitable tragedy into an avoidable national catastrophe, then it has failed altogether.'

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...hallenge-johnson-avoidable-deaths-coronavirus
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I have no confidence in any enquiry leading anywhere - it will be a cover up.

However, while the government have made lots of issues they have done some very good stuff like the furlough scheme - and any view can only be taken in the future when all effects can be measured Some others may appear to be doing better in terms of covid deaths but could have a ticking time bomb on other areas.
 
Retune said:
I can't say I'm always Owen Jones's biggest fan, but I agree with him here:

'If we can't criticise the government for avoidable deaths, what's the point of democracy?'

'The systematic attempt to stifle even mild attempts by the media to hold government to account is itself dangerous. A fortnight ago, a senior cabinet source told the Telegraph: “We didn’t want to go down this route in the first place – public and media pressure pushed the lockdown, we went with the science.” If there had been more determination by the media to challenge the government’s decision to make Britain an international outlier in the pandemic, lockdown may have happened earlier and thousands of lives could have been spared. Decisions made by our government have left us one of the most devastated nations on Earth. The cost? Personal suffering as thousands of families mourn the loss of loved ones and unnecessarily grave economic and social turmoil. If our democracy cannot hold our government to account for turning an inevitable tragedy into an avoidable national catastrophe, then it has failed altogether.'

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...hallenge-johnson-avoidable-deaths-coronavirus
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Can I join you in the ”not Owen Jones's biggest fan” Club? :). However, he is correct there, difficult to be wrong all the time ... though T___ & B___ make a good stab at it. (Names withheld to protect the feelings of some sensitive souls :))
 
nilagin said:
Is it though?
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Of course it is.

So because some of us don't like the Govt, it makes it acceptable that thanks to our slow response and half-arsed lockdown, we're set to have the most deaths in Europe?

Who's fault is it if we can't criticise our Govt then? It can't be the WHO by the simple fact that all the countries that followed their advice from the start have the lowest death rates.
 
I've just watched the Panorama programme about the government's mishandling of NHS procurement.

I cannot write what I feel about the scoundrels who constitute the current government.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Of course it is.

So because some of us don't like the Govt, it makes it acceptable that thanks to our slow response and half-arsed lockdown, we're set to have the most deaths in Europe?

Who's fault is it if we can't criticise our Govt then? It can't be the WHO by the simple fact that all the countries that followed their advice from the start have the lowest death rates.
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The fact you feel you have responded and feel a need to explain yourself can be construed as guilt.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Of course it is.

So because some of us don't like the Govt, it makes it acceptable that thanks to our slow response and half-arsed lockdown, we're set to have the most deaths in Europe?

Who's fault is it if we can't criticise our Govt then? It can't be the WHO by the simple fact that all the countries that followed their advice from the start have the lowest death rates.
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Not 100% right - I do think the government have made some fundamental errors, although I guess they are far from unique. There may well be other countries envious of the support the government have given to people and businesses. But having the most deaths in Europe is not the right metric to blame them on. Lots of factors involved such as population ages and even those infected. If by some reason mainly sub 40 yo were infected here, and it was mainly 70+ in Germany they would have a higher death rate. Ok, that is unlikely but could be a factor in a smaller way, or what % of populations have health conditions or are over 70. Its also deaths per million we need to look at and as things stand we are better than Belgium and Italy, and we will always have more deaths than most countries who are smaller. Maybe another factor is the fact we have London as one of the busiest cities with people coming and going (maybe that points to a fault in government in not closing down airports earlier)?

I would love to see a true enquiry when this has settled - did they follow the scientific advise or not, and did they make a lot of basic errors?
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I've just watched the Panorama programme about the government's mishandling of NHS procurement.

I cannot write what I feel about the scoundrels who constitute the current government.
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You're happy with the impartiality and neutrality of the contributors to that piece of...umm....journalism then ?
 
joxby said:
You're happy with the impartiality and neutrality of the contributors to that piece of...umm....journalism then ?
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Yes. The interviewees rang true to me. Also: we've seen similar levels of incompetence from members of this government before.
 
Retune said:
ELIZA: What are your feelings now ?
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You're hiding behind your keyboard with the delusion of being a computer program and you need help. A little tip, don't bother asking the computer.
 
nilagin said:
You're hiding behind your keyboard with the delusion of being a computer program and you need help. A little tip, don't bother asking the computer.
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ELIZA: What do you think about machines ?
 
Rapscallion said:
Boris, is that you?
And thank you for bring some (unintended) joy to this grey morning. Possibly the most humorous post i have ever read on TP!
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Interestingly the Majority of the public are more in tune with my thoughts than the regular 'centre left' posters here:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...7/covid-19-support-government-reaction-swells

We know media like the Guardian will never back a Conservative Govt yet a high proportion of regular posters seem to link to it as 'fact'.

Likewise I had the misfortune of an incident I had been involved with being the subject of a Panorama 'investigation' - the twisting and lies that the program aired was unbelievable - it was clear they had an agenda to meet and the program was edited to meet that agenda rather than an unbiased truth.
 
cambsno said:
did they follow the scientific advise or not, and did they make a lot of basic errors?
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The question is not did they follow the scientific advice, it's why did they pick the advisors they did was it because they are the best in their field or they have the same ideology.
 
tarric said:
The question is not did they follow the scientific advice, it's why did they pick the advisors they did was it because they are the best in their field or they have the same ideology.
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:rolleyes::rolleyes:.................some people!
 
RWDW said:
Likewise I had the misfortune of an incident I had been involved with being the subject of a Panorama 'investigation' - the twisting and lies that the program aired was unbelievable
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So if you were involved in an incident which you say they twisted to suit their agenda, enlighten us.
 
tarric said:
YouGov the British international internet-based market research and data analytics firm started and run by Stephen Shakespeare and future MP Nadhim Zahawi, at the time both active in the Conservative Party. Almost as unbiased as the Guardian.
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mmmmmm..........also noted for their accuracy.
 
RWDW said:
:LOL::ROFLMAO: It's seriously a very, very bad point TBH!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Whitty

..................but don't let your politics cloud your vision or 'go to your head'!
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Not clouding my vision but maybe yours, I didn't say Chris Whitty did not have impeccable credentials but why was he chosen from a field of other individuals with equally impressive credentials. Also the previous incumbent Dame Sally Davies had some interestingly different views to our current governments thinking.
 
RWDW said:
mmmmmm..........also noted for their accuracy.
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Not always.
POLLING GURU Chris Curtis for YouGov explained Prime Minister Boris Johnson could be in danger of losing his majority in the upcoming December 12 general election as Labour’s Jeremy Corbyn “could close the gap”.
 
I find it strange that since this started no one has been reported to have died from ,stroke,heart attack, cancer,old age,or any other causes are ALL deaths in hospital being labled as covid 19 as no one wants to do the autopsy ???

Surely there must be a average death rate per month that should be subtracted from the virus figures .
 
the black fox said:
Surely there must be a average death rate per month that should be subtracted from the virus figures .
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I did see a graph a few days back of total deaths showing those that died of CV19 in a different colour it was a small percentage
I'll see if I can find it for you.
Do we also factor in the amount of people that have already died or will because we had been told and were unable to get medical attention for potentially serious things ?
 
the black fox said:
I find it strange that since this started no one has been reported to have died from ,stroke,heart attack, cancer,old age,or any other causes are ALL deaths in hospital being labled as covid 19 as no one wants to do the autopsy ???

Surely there must be a average death rate per month that should be subtracted from the virus figures .
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Loads of people have died from other causes.

If you subtract the number of dead from the 5 year average you get a figure a lot higher than the current death toll. Suggesting if anything, the numbers are under-stated.



https://www.ft.com/content/0ed8ea34-ebc5-4425-b86a-7a29447de57b
 
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