The virus. PPE. Part 1

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Hence my bracketing ' for some'.
I’ll have to be more careful, it wasn’t intended a a disagreement with what you said, just an observation but I can see you may have taken it that way.

I suppose I’m used to a more “conversational” situation where the to-ing & fro-ing are framed by tone of voice etc whereas t’interwebs seem to create a more confrontational atmosphere especially for those who aren’t very good at reading :(, naming no names :).
 
I do question the response of the NHS to non convid-19 cases as we have personal experience.

We live in North Yorkshire, on the edge of the Dales, huge area and relatively few people.
My wife went to our local Dr's in Jan with leisions on her tongue. She was seen within a week. Dr didn't know what to make of it so referred her to a specialist under the two week wait at the local cancer centre at our nearest hospital. Specialist was also unsure ? and referred her for a biopsy. She received a letter confirming the biospy for the 26th mar (6 week wait)
Another letter received, all procedures at our local hospital cancelled, biopsy moved to larger hospital, same date. Biopsy completed on 26th mar (very unpleasant) poor lady had to
live on a liquid diet for a week or so. Wife was told she would receive the results by telephone. We waited 2 weeks and then received a letter ! with an appointment with the consultant in august ! a further 4 months +. At no point were we informed of the results of the biopsy. While we kept telling ourselves that the apparent lack of urgency signified nothing to worry about, we were also reading about patients having their cancer treatment put on hold. We and especially my wife had absolutely no peace of mind.
After a week or two I finally persuaded my wife to contact her local Dr again to explain the situation. (She is not a 'pushy' lady)
Our Dr (a lady) managed to elicit more information and without much delay informed us that the 'leisions' were not malignant (phew) but surgery may be necessary to remove them ? this
we will not know until august (I suppose this schedule depends on covid-19)

Was this human error or has the NHS lost it's way during this pandemic ?
 
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Sorry your wife and you had that experience Roy.

I'm waiting for a very minor thing, I'm occasionally in pain and have been told I have a bone spur on my foot which needs taking off. That can wait but I may ask to go private if it drags on too much to speed things up. I won't have anything on my conscience if I go private as I'll be freeing up a place on the NHS list for someone else.

Could going private be an option?

Years ago I had a heart issue and the appointment to see the specialist was months away but when I mention going private I was seen at my convenience and it didn't cost a lot either.
 
I do question the response of the NHS to non convid-19 cases as we have personal experience.

We live in North Yorkshire, on the edge of the Dales, huge area and relatively few people.
My wife went to our local Dr's in Jan with leisions on her tongue. She was seen within a week. Dr didn't know what to make of it so referred her to a specialist under the two week wait at the local cancer centre at our nearest hospital. Specialist was also unsure ? and referred her for a biopsy. She received a letter confirming the biospy for the 26th mar (6 week wait)
Another letter received, all procedures at our local hospital cancelled, biopsy moved to larger hospital, same date. Biopsy completed on 26th mar (very unpleasant) poor lady had to
live on a liquid diet for a week or so. Wife was told she would receive the results by telephone. We waited 2 weeks and then received a letter ! with an appointment with the consultant in august ! a further 4 months +. A no point were we informed of the results of the biopsy. While we kept telling ourselves that the apparent lack of urgency signified nothing to worry about, we were also reading about patients having their cancer treatment put on hold. We and especially my wife had absolutely no peace of mind.
After a week or two I finally persuaded my wife to contact her local Dr again to explain the situation. (She is not a 'pushy' lady)
Our Dr (a lady) managed to elicit more information and without much delay informed us that the 'leisions' were not malignant (phew) but surgery may be necessary to remove them ? this
we will not know until august (I suppose this schedule depends on covid-19)

Was this human error or has the NHS lost it's way during this pandemic ?
I’m in a similar position with an operation (not directly life-threatening condition) postponed “indefinitely”. Having experienced some similar (at least 2) similar situations with lack of communications/mix-ups to your wife’s I’ve found we have to push for clarification and in my case was solved on one of the occasions by the GP being able to access the hospital records online. My brother had a similar experience where his GP was able to access an x-ray online and see that something had been missed.
Nobodys perfect and mistakes get made, I believe I may have made some myself but can’t remember any :)
 
Sorry your wife and you had that experience Roy.

I'm waiting for a very minor thing, I'm occasionally in pain and have been told I have a bone spur on my foot which needs taking off. That can wait but I may ask to go private if it drags on too much to speed things up. I won't have anything on my conscience if I go private as I'll be freeing up a place on the NHS list for someone else.

Could going private be an option?

Years ago I had a heart issue and the appointment to see the specialist was months away but when I mention going private I was seen at my convenience and it didn't cost a lot either.

Alan, the NHS are using many of the private hospitals facilities so who knows what private treatments are available.
 
Sorry your wife and you had that experience Roy.

I'm waiting for a very minor thing, I'm occasionally in pain and have been told I have a bone spur on my foot which needs taking off. That can wait but I may ask to go private if it drags on too much to speed things up. I won't have anything on my conscience if I go private as I'll be freeing up a place on the NHS list for someone

Have one of these myself, broke my heel over thirty years ago and it can be quite painful
Had to let it heal on its own, my dad was dying and needed to travel to see him.
Thought of having it dealt with, but two people I know have died from MRSA after routine surgery.
Lived with it this long so don't think I'll bother now, hope you get yours sorted out
 
Have one of these myself, broke my heel over thirty years ago and it can be quite painful
Had to let it heal on its own, my dad was dying and needed to travel to see him.
Thought of having it dealt with, but two people I know have died from MRSA after routine surgery.
Lived with it this long so don't think I'll bother now, hope you get yours sorted out

Sometimes it doesn't bother me, sometimes it's like tooth ache and sometimes it's very painful, there doesn't seem to be any way to predict it. I do wish hey'd checked the other foot at the some time then I could get them both done if necessary.
 
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Alan, the NHS are using many of the private hospitals facilities so who knows what private treatments are available.

You could ask the question, you never know.

I've suffered from mouth ulcers all my life so I can begin to imagine what your Mrs could be going through.
 
Sometimes it doesn't bother me, sometimes it's like tooth ache and sometimes it's very painful, there doesn't seem to be any way to predict it. I do wish hey'd checked the other foot at the some time then I could get them both done if necessary.

They did mention steroid injection when they originally found it.
Never bothered then so doubt I will now, just one of those things you get used to
 
No. In an ideal world we can save everyone, but we can't! We need to decide priorities and if we look to protect fully one group, another will suffer, unless you happen to have a magic wand. Even the CMO has said its about a balance!

Can you show me where 10% of all covid deaths have come from women in the 40-44 age group please as I don't think that can be correct, that was specifically the age group i mentioned in the 5,500 cancer diagnosis. (as if it was you would expect at least 10% or more to be in the 45-49 bracket and then over that in the 50-54 bracket...)

Now I am sure you are aware that cancer is a nasty thing and it kills a lot of people. I am happy to be corrected here, but if you don't diagnose cancer early enough it will kill you. Dare I say that if un-treated, cancer has a 100% mortality rate. So yes, even based on your numbers (which i think are incorrect), if 3,000 women aged 40-44 get Covid, 300 will die (I dispute your 10% but lets go with it), whereas if 3,000 women who would normally have been diagnosed with cancer dont get this diagnosed and treated quickly enough how many will die as a result (obviously a lot of factors here like type of cancer etc...) but we know that early screening and treatment saves lives!

And thats not to mention the 'hidden' deaths over the next 5-10 years as a result of a crashed economy.

Sigh :cautious::cautious: You just make little throwaway comments about wanting to save everyone "but we can't " or "we need to decide priorities" etc, but you're just hiding behind your consistent permissive attitude of accepting the loss of whole swathes of people. Are you trying to tell me that the CMO, when talking about balance, was talking about how to weigh up and justify deaths of one group over another?

I never said that 10% of all covid deaths were women, so your misrepresenting what I said and if you look on the ONS website its right there (men and women)

Again you are just making assumptions, untreated cancer has a 100% mortality rate? Just that statement shows how little you know about cancer in healthcare but also how you're happy to use cancer and the economic impact as continuing (erroneous) justifcation for allowing deaths of a segment of society.
 
...
And thats not to mention the 'hidden' deaths over the next 5-10 years as a result of a crashed economy.
It’s interesting how many people say they are worrying about future deaths due to poverty etc and it seems to me these very same people are the ones who never worried about such death before :(.

(Not saying you are one of them, I don’t know you, but you certainly talk the talk :))
 
It’s interesting how many people say they are worrying about future deaths due to poverty etc and it seems to me these very same people are the ones who never worried about such death before :(.

And it's completely unquantifiable too, but it's a nice soundbite.
Funny how it never caught on last year with the reports of 120,000 deaths related to austerity measures since 2010? 5 times more than what covid19 has taken (so far) :(
 
I never said that 10% of all covid deaths were women, so your misrepresenting what I said and if you look on the ONS website its right there (men and women)

.

No, but I was quoting just women 40-44 in the first place, so the 10% number was meaningless as not comparable,
 
No, but I was quoting just women 40-44 in the first place, so the 10% number was meaningless as not comparable,
You're absolutely right, maybe you'll use better data next time.
 
And it's completely unquantifiable too, but it's a nice soundbite.
Funny how it never caught on last year with the reports of 120,000 deaths related to austerity measures since 2010? 5 times more than what covid19 has taken (so far) :(

I'm not being glib here and every life is precious and every death a tragedy.

I live between Middlesbrough and Redcar and life expectancy here is relatively low and of course there's much relative poverty here. In some respects the changes we've seen in our economy could in some ways be seen as a good thing. The air is cleaner, the rivers and seas too. Just a couple of little examples, at 17 I used to walk past the Portrack incinerator to work and back and black soot used to fall like snow. You don't see that now. My father worked at what was then ICI and there were local deaths linked to a "cancer" plant there and although ICI afaik never admitted responsibility they did level the plant and concrete over it. Fast forward and the air is clear and there's fish in the river.

I made a lovely dinner today that probably cost under £2 a serving. How many do you think in my area had a fat laden abomination swilled down with premium strength brew before reaching for the cannabis? But when they die at 55 they could be counted as victims of austerity. And of course our parents and grandparents were probably healthier than many today even though they lived through the war and rationing and real austerity.

My point is sometimes it can be swings and roundabouts. X deaths related to austerity is an easy claim to make and no doubt there are many true victims but how many are at least party due to poor education, generations of poor or no role models, other social factors or simply a frankly suicidal lifestyle?
 
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I'm not being glib here and every life is precious and every death a tragedy.

I live between Middlesbrough and Redcar and life expectancy here is relatively low and of course there's much relative poverty here. In some respects the changes we've seen in our economy could in some ways be seen as a good thing. The air is cleaner, the rivers and seas too. Just a couple of little examples, at 17 I used to walk past the Portrack incinerator to work and back and black soot used to fall like snow. You don't see that now. My father worked at what was then ICI and there were local deaths linked to a "cancer" plant there and although ICI afaik never admitted responsibility they did level the plant and concrete over it. Fast forward and the air is clear and there's fish in the river.

I made a lovely dinner today that probably cost under £2 a serving. How many do you think in my area had a fat laden abomination swilled down with premium strength brew before reaching for the cannabis? But when they die at 55 they could be counted as victims of austerity. And of course our parents and grandparents were probably healthier then many today even though they lived through the war and rationing and real austerity.

My point is sometimes it can be swings and roundabouts. X deaths related to austerity is an easy claim to make and no doubt there are many true victims but how many are at least party due to poor education, generations of poor or no role models, other social factors or simply a frankly suicidal lifestyle?

Great post!
 
And of course our parents and grandparents were probably healthier then many today even though they lived through the war and rationing and real austerity

I think there are figures to back up the healthy part, due to rationing, the National Loaf and so on. As someone who lived through that period I am often struck by the fact that I don’t ever remember seeing any fat kids for example and we were all pretty active, cycling everywhere and so on. Of course I lived in the South so it may have been different in other parts of the country. When I did my National Service and met the strange Northern folk :) for the first time there weren’t any overweight ones, perhaps they’d all been rejected as unfit :).
 
No actual proof of that and the figure is just a projection.
https://fullfact.org/health/austerity-120000-unnecessary-deaths/

Even if it's wildly wrong there'll be a grain of truth there which imo needs looking at. As a socialist I do think that we as a society need to take a wide ranging look at ourselves and how we live and interact with other nations and the world we live in but that could well involve changes that many of us wouldn't want. I've said before in threads like this that if "we" did what many are calling for the ones calling loudest would probably be on the first train/flight/boat out. The sad fact is that being a caring government can come across as being a bit Big Brother or at least being a nanny state and lots of people don't don't like that one bit.
 
I think there are figures to back up the healthy part, due to rationing, the National Loaf and so on. As someone who lived through that period I am often struck by the fact that I don’t ever remember seeing any fat kids for example and we were all pretty active, cycling everywhere and so on. Of course I lived in the South so it may have been different in other parts of the country. When I did my National Service and met the strange Northern folk :) for the first time there weren’t any overweight ones, perhaps they’d all been rejected as unfit :).

Yup. I remember going out either on foot or on my bike and not coming home until tea time (we northeners have our main meal sometime between 17-18:00.)
 
Yes, will have a word with Cancer Research about their data!

Yeah do that, and while there ask them if cancer = 100% death rate.
 
The sad fact is that being a caring government can come across as being a bit Big Brother or at least being a nanny state
It doesn't need to. If politicians stopped lying and learned to tell the unvarnished truth they might be surprised how much more respect and cooperation they would receive. A caring state is a good thing and that is the one lesson we should learn from this event.
 
I made a lovely dinner today that probably cost under £2 a serving. How many do you think in my area had a fat laden abomination swilled down with premium strength brew before reaching for the cannabis? But when they die at 55 they could be counted as victims of austerity.

I don't know, how many did?

As a socialist

you keep repeating it but......
 
Apologies if this has been posted already - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...emergency-morgues-run-uk-festival-firm-london

What are we doing employing a private company and one whose normal work is music festivals to run the temporary mortuaries in London?

Could not the army have been used to do this instead?

Seems daft to use tax payers money to pay a private company to do something the forces could have done.

Dave
 
Apologies if this has been posted already - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...emergency-morgues-run-uk-festival-firm-london

What are we doing employing a private company and one whose normal work is music festivals to run the temporary mortuaries in London?

Could not the army have been used to do this instead?

Seems daft to use tax payers money to pay a private company to do something the forces could have done.

Dave
From what I have read, the army is working on ppe distribution and helping out on testing stations.
A bit of sensationalism in that story, about using standard vans. What do they think undertakers use when collecting bodies.
 
Apologies if this has been posted already - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...emergency-morgues-run-uk-festival-firm-london

What are we doing employing a private company and one whose normal work is music festivals to run the temporary mortuaries in London?

Could not the army have been used to do this instead?

Seems daft to use tax payers money to pay a private company to do something the forces could have done.

Dave
Army may be busy but festivals company doesn’t sound appropriate. No doubt well connected :(. There are obvious Heath hazards but in any case should be supervised by someone who knows about “body handling”.
 
How many people are really dying from COVID-19? Here’s the answer from a respected statistician (David Spiegelhalter, professor of the public understanding of risk at Cambridge University)m

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...how-does-britain-compare-with-other-countries

I’ll save you the trouble of reading it the TLDR version is we don’t know, we may have a better idea at the end of the year, maybe we’ll never know (actually, I’ve added the last bit, but it’s a reasonable inference :)).
 
How many people are really dying from COVID-19? Here’s the answer from a respected statistician (David Spiegelhalter, professor of the public understanding of risk at Cambridge University)m

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...how-does-britain-compare-with-other-countries

I’ll save you the trouble of reading it the TLDR version is we don’t know, we may have a better idea at the end of the year, maybe we’ll never know (actually, I’ve added the last bit, but it’s a reasonable inference :)).
...though I somehow suspect the 100-fold greater number of deaths in the UK compared to South Korea reflects a statistically robust difference.
 
...though I somehow suspect the 100-fold greater number of deaths in the UK compared to South Korea reflects a statistically robust difference.
I quite agree! It’ll be interesting to see if anyone can work out the reduction in deaths from air pollution, traffic accidents* (rather easy that one) and so on.

*”Unfortunately“ our rates are rather low so not many lives saved :).
 
I can't say I'm always Owen Jones's biggest fan, but I agree with him here:

'If we can't criticise the government for avoidable deaths, what's the point of democracy?'

'The systematic attempt to stifle even mild attempts by the media to hold government to account is itself dangerous. A fortnight ago, a senior cabinet source told the Telegraph: “We didn’t want to go down this route in the first place – public and media pressure pushed the lockdown, we went with the science.” If there had been more determination by the media to challenge the government’s decision to make Britain an international outlier in the pandemic, lockdown may have happened earlier and thousands of lives could have been spared. Decisions made by our government have left us one of the most devastated nations on Earth. The cost? Personal suffering as thousands of families mourn the loss of loved ones and unnecessarily grave economic and social turmoil. If our democracy cannot hold our government to account for turning an inevitable tragedy into an avoidable national catastrophe, then it has failed altogether.'

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...hallenge-johnson-avoidable-deaths-coronavirus
 
An MP has described people's concerns with the fatality rate from Covid-19 in the UK as a "sick obsession". The prick should be sacked.
It depends on what the obsession is. Some seem to revel in the number.
 
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