The virus. PPE. Part 1

[AndrewFlannigan]

Some have even been getting in touch with their MPs locally in an attempt to make their stocks known

The impression I have formed from the available information is that too few MPs are performing their primary task of holding the government to account. This is showing up in the several strategic mistakes made by the government since the first reports of the new virus. I hope that enough people will understand how our current system has failed to insist on changes when things "get back to normal".

 

[cambsno]

Have to agree with that, one place I used to go quite often is now crammed with dog walkers etc. because it's easy to get too,
I have found a few more remote places to go
What others have to understand is that not everyone has a garden to sit in, some live in small flats, ideal in normal times but they feel isolated at the moment.
Getting out is not all about exercise, it's also about mental wellbeing, I can happily live without seeing anyone for days, but being cooped up inside is a different matter.
Spoke to one of my elderly neighbours yesterday, he has health problems so can't get out and he was not looking good, he is not coping well with being shut away, worrying about his health and no one to talk to
Last week we received a news letter from the management committee encouraging people to sit out in the communal gardens whilst maintaining social distancing, yesterday we had another stating that we could receive letters accusing people of anti social behaviour if they did just that and also threats of being reported to the police,
Not exactly going to help those that already feel lonely and isolated

I am on our Parish Council and have heard a lot of reports about how a number of the elderly people in the village with no family etc... are very, very lonely. This can also shorten lives and lead to people becoming ill. On the one hand they are being protected but on the other, put at risk.

 

[cambsno]

If everyone goes out for hours at a time then places like the busway path will be busy all the time.
That place is a disaster, cyclist and walkers far closer than is ideal at the moment.
I walk over those gravel pits all year round during the week, never seen the place so busy
I'm having trouble finding the quieter routes, I have done for now, but it's not been easy

I have not found it too bad - You come into closer contact with far more people in Tesco. We went on a loop so half busway and half other, and it was pretty quiet off the busway - some of the tracks around Longstanton are very quiet and even walking the 2 miles or so to Willingham and back you may only pass a few people.

 

[nilagin]

Have to agree with that, one place I used to go quite often is now crammed with dog walkers etc. because it's easy to get too,
I have found a few more remote places to go
What others have to understand is that not everyone has a garden to sit in, some live in small flats, ideal in normal times but they feel isolated at the moment.
Getting out is not all about exercise, it's also about mental wellbeing, I can happily live without seeing anyone for days, but being cooped up inside is a different matter.
Spoke to one of my elderly neighbours yesterday, he has health problems so can't get out and he was not looking good, he is not coping well with being shut away, worrying about his health and no one to talk to
Last week we received a news letter from the management committee encouraging people to sit out in the communal gardens whilst maintaining social distancing, yesterday we had another stating that we could receive letters accusing people of anti social behaviour if they did just that and also threats of being reported to the police,
Not exactly going to help those that already feel lonely and isolated

Sitting in communal gardens while keeping distance seems OK to me. I don’t know how big the gardens are or how many residents but that could clearly be organised.

I live in a flat, but other than going to Tesco once or twice a week, which can be 1hr or 2hrs depending on the size of the queue, or cleaning the car once a week if I can park outside the flats, I haven't been out for the past four weeks since being furloughed. We don't have a communal garden as such, it is more of a communal washing line area for 5 blocks of flats. I suffer from psoriasis and the only thing that seems to clear it up or stop it from itching is laying out in the sun. I would dearly love to be out in the sun, rather than itching like crazy, but I would rather suffer the itching rather than risk getting the virus from unnecessary having to use the same lobby door or gate to the communal area as everyone else.
Some of my neighbours I just don't trust to be honest as far as cleanliness goes.

 

[Gremlin]

rather than risk getting the virus from unnecessary having to use the same lobby door or gate to the communal area as everyone else.
Some of my neighbours I just don't trust to be honest as far as cleanliness goes.

We are lucky, on 2 flats share the same entry, 2 upstairs and 2 downstairs on opposite sides of the building.
Many of the downstairs flats have put a french door into the front room so don't have to use the hallway except
to pick up post from the main door.
You have said that you want to get back to work, unless you are going to climb in and out of a window that will been using the lobby, how will you cope with that ?

 

[sphexx]

The impression I have formed from the available information is that too few MPs are performing their primary task of holding the government to account. This is showing up in the several strategic mistakes made by the government since the first reports of the new virus. I hope that enough people will understand how our current system has failed to insist on changes when things "get back to normal".

I think maybe it’s ‘lines of communication’, especially with Parliament not sitting. I guess usually an MP speaks to Minister and eventually some action gets taken but now they need an ad hoc system set up (probably they should use use the Army like in foot & mouth) but they’ve appointed a retired Tory w****r banker to coordinate supply because he has something to do with the Olymics (see, another “brand” name!).

 

[tarric]

I'd like to get back to work asap, I would like to get back to the gym asap, I would like life to return to normal asap and that isn't going to happen if people are going to act irresponsibly and selfishly, f*****g it up for everybody else.

You mean like allowing 10's of thousands of people a day to arrive unchecked into the country.
https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/london-coronavirus-people-still-arriving-18104787
https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/19/500-private-jets-flown-uk-coronavirus-hotspots-12578811/

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Just saw the same article.

Not only that but the PPE they said was arriving from Turkey on Sunday?

They only formally asked for it on Sunday afternoon.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...er-it-said-it-was-already-on-its-way-11976238

But yeah, the Govt are doing a great job.

A government source said on Monday night that a commercial supplier in Turkey had been lined up to deliver the material over the weekend but something went wrong so officials were forced to ask the Turkish government for help.

 

[Donnie]

"something" went wrong?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

"something" went wrong?

Yeah, they forgot to order it I imagine.

 

[mex]

Yeah, they forgot to order it I imagine.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...ey-before-it-had-even-made-the-request/21/04/

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...ey-before-it-had-even-made-the-request/21/04/

That doesn't say anything different from the other links.
They only made a "formal" request for help from the Turkish government on Sunday when they realised there was an issue with the shipment.

 

[sphexx]

That doesn't say anything different from the other links.
They only made a "formal" request for help from the Turkish government on Sunday when they realised there was an issue with the shipment.

this government of all governments should know supplies from Turkey are unreliable! After all they are the people who forecast millions of Turks arriving here that never showed up

 

[Dave *]

I trust we can both see the irony of you quoting the NPCC guidance in terms of compliance with the law after trashing my explanation of how guidance is used to help understand how a law should be interpreted and applied

Especially as the NPCC guidance wanders away from full compliance with the law as it stands.

I'm using it to try and show @nilagin that there are other opinions out there other than his own, and that his opinion isnt necessarily the one the law agrees with (just as at times the NPCC opinion doesn't always align with the law).

The problem is that nilagin is like the proverbial pigeon in a chess game...

 

[nilagin]

We are lucky, on 2 flats share the same entry, 2 upstairs and 2 downstairs on opposite sides of the building.
Many of the downstairs flats have put a french door into the front room so don't have to use the hallway except
to pick up post from the main door.
You have said that you want to get back to work, unless you are going to climb in and out of a window that will been using the lobby, how will you cope with that ?

I was supposed to return to work yesterday, but we have been furloughed for this week as well at the moment. But when I do have to go to work, I will open the lobby door with my elbow as I normally do, returning home I will unlock and open the lobby door with my key, but when I do return to work, it will be a case of necessity, while I am furloughed it isn't a necessity, so I avoid doing it as much as possible.

 

[Dave *]

but a 3 hour walk in the country is probably a smaller risk than being cooped up at home!

and as it's likely to tire your kids out it's beneficial to your mental health as well .

 

[myotis]

I'm using it to try and show @nilagin that there are other opinions out there other than his own, and that his opinion isnt necessarily the one the law agrees with (just as at times the NPCC opinion doesn't always align with the law).

The problem is that nilagin is like the proverbial pigeon in a chess game...

I fear you may be slightly missing my point, even if it is a trivial one.

 

[Peter10d]

According to a report on Sky News, scientists have discovered 33 strains of the virus with the most deadly strain being found in Europe. If true this might explain the horrendous death tolls in Spain, Italy, France and the UK.

 

[nilagin]

I'm using it to try and show @nilagin that there are other opinions out there other than his own, and that his opinion isnt necessarily the one the law agrees with (just as at times the NPCC opinion doesn't always align with the law).

The problem is that nilagin is like the proverbial pigeon in a chess game...

I am just explaining what is reasonable, the word used in both the regulations and the guidelines. A word you obviously have no grasp of the true meaning.
Yes the regulations don't mention a time limit as to how long you should be out exercising on a daily basis during the lockdown, but anyone with any intelligence would just do a simple bit of research to find out how much exercise is necessary to conform to the spirit of the lockdown restrictions and a reasonable excuse of leaving your home.

 

[jakeblu]

No, it's not. A court will interpret it basically, unlike you they don't add their opinion to the end of a law to change what it means.

You might have missed the start of this discussion, the NPCC actually used "Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving)" and "Stopping to rest or to eat lunch while on a long walk" as two of their examples of what they consider acceptable, it's pretty impossible for your opinion of what's reasonable to fit into either scenario.

If you stopped to rest and have lunch for 30-45 minutes whilst on a long walk, then the walk would need to be significantly longer (so 2-3 hours) to comply.

How does that square with advice still on .gov.uk which states you must minimise your time outside. Going for a 2, 3 or four hour exercise with lunch in between, hardly seems to be minimising your time outdoors.

 

[cambsno]

Would you like the figures to the nearest 100, 1000, or 1,000,000?
I doubt there is even an expert guess or prediction. It's like all the calls for a date of when our lockdown can be lifted. It isn't worth announcing anything, because it is an unknown.

And here we go:

But rises in non-coronavirus deaths are also playing a role and suggests the indirect effects of the pandemic and lockdown are also having an impact, says BBC Health correspondent Nick Triggle.


BBCCopyright: BBC
He highlights that the number of deaths caused by flu and pneumonia were three times higher than the number of coronavirus deaths over the course of the year.

"This will narrow quickly in coming weeks as more coronavirus deaths are reported, but provides some important context," he said.

This is why we need to look at the data in detail and get as close to normality asap - remember this is deaths that have happened, lots of deaths will occur over longer term as people miss treatments and tests.

 

[cambsno]

I am just explaining what is reasonable, the word used in both the regulations and the guidelines. A word you obviously have no grasp of the true meaning.
Yes the regulations don't mention a time limit as to how long you should be out exercising on a daily basis during the lockdown, but anyone with any intelligence would just do a simple bit of research to find out how much exercise is necessary to conform to the spirit of the lockdown restrictions and a reasonable excuse of leaving your home.

Does cleaning you car constitute a reasonable excuse as you admitted to that earlier. If on a private driveway probably but you said you were in a flat?

 

[nilagin]

And here we go:

But rises in non-coronavirus deaths are also playing a role and suggests the indirect effects of the pandemic and lockdown are also having an impact, says BBC Health correspondent Nick Triggle.

View attachment 276010
BBCCopyright: BBC
He highlights that the number of deaths caused by flu and pneumonia were three times higher than the number of coronavirus deaths over the course of the year.

"This will narrow quickly in coming weeks as more coronavirus deaths are reported, but provides some important context," he said.

This is why we need to look at the data in detail and get as close to normality asap - remember this is deaths that have happened, lots of deaths will occur over longer term as people miss treatments and tests.

But it is still impossible to give an exact date. The best they can say is if new infections fall below a certain number by 1st May for example, we will start lifting restrictions, but they can't actually promise that infections will fall below that number, so in effect it is a false hope. All they can do is continue moving the COVID19 patients into the temporary hospitals as space allows and possibly transfer other COVID19 patients to other hospitals, so other patients can be treated in the remaining hospitals theoretically infection free and reduce the risk of infection further.

 

[myotis]

How does that square with advice still on .gov.uk which states you must minimise your time outside. Going for a 2, 3 or four hour exercise with lunch in between, hardly seems to be minimising your time outdoors.

Because the Government web site is about "best practise" while the law, and NPCC guidance on it, is about what can be legally enforced without infringing on human rights etc. At least that is how I interpret it.

 

[nilagin]

Does cleaning you car constitute a reasonable excuse as you admitted to that earlier. If on a private driveway probably but you said you were in a flat?

I was already outside having just got back from shopping. All the cleaning materials were in the boot. The windows, lights and mirrors and number plates, which are required to be kept clean, were dirty from dust and pollen. It took about half an hour to do it all. Social distancing isn't a problem as everyone walks on the path on the opposite side of the road to get to and from the local shops. So yes a reasonable excuse.

 

[JohnC6]

Does cleaning you car constitute a reasonable excuse as you admitted to that earlier. If on a private driveway probably but you said you were in a flat?

I'll be cleaning our cars shortly as not having clean cars causes me mental welfare issues The cars are on the driveway 10m from the pavement. It's open plan .I mowed the front lawn yesterday and also my neighbour's who was most appreciative. It's green bin day today. Whilst doing this people passing stopped to have a word ..some asked me to go and do theirs..lol.and that doesn't usually happen so all in all a success all round I'd say and at no risk to anyone.

 

[jakeblu]

Because the Government web site is about "best practise" while the law, and NPCC guidance on it, is about what can be legally enforced without infringing on human rights etc. At least that is how I interpret it.

Maybe, but the website doesn't say anything about best practice, its in the form of a FAQ in what you can and can't do. It's also still saying only exercise once a day unless your a dog owner that is. It is a little dated though, and if advice has changed, and seemingly it has, then the government really should be updating their FAQs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...avirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

 

[sphexx]

I'll be cleaning our cars shortly as not having clean cars causes me mental welfare issues The cars are on the driveway 10m from the pavement. It's open plan .I mowed the front lawn yesterday and also my neighbour's who was most appreciative. It's green bin day today. Whilst doing this people passing stopped to have a word ..some asked me to go and do theirs..lol.and that doesn't usually happen so all in all a success all round I'd say and at no risk to anyone.

John, like you I am fanatical about cleaning my car and clean it very regularly — once a year before the MOT . This extension to the MOT is going to mean it will miss it’s annual clean .

 

[myotis]

Maybe, but the website doesn't say anything about best practice, its in the form of a FAQ in what you can and can't do. It's also still saying only exercise once a day unless your a dog owner that is. It is a little dated though, and if advice has changed, and seemingly it has, then the government really should be updating their FAQs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...avirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

Fair point, and the faqs do need to be revised to more clearly separate what might be legally enforceable and what is best practice/guidance only.

 

[JohnC6]

SAGE will be advising the government on mask-wearing soon. Over the weekend 100 doctors wrote to HMG urging that the decision should be that masks are worn but a scientist on the Five-Live phone-in this morning was not recommending them. She's a Health Care Scientist from the Society of Applied Microbiology.She did not advocate the wearing of a mask, especially home-made ones from material as they are porous. They don't protect the wearer but do inhibit the spread of droplets from a cough or a sneeze.They will mostly be ill-fitting and slip eg.. if someone bends down to check out items on low shelving in the supermarket. The best ones should go to those on the front-line . They cause people to touch their faces more than they normally would. They could give a false sense of protection. We're not used to wearing masks so they could have a detrimental psychological effect. They would also become moist and uncomfortable.

Infact, a caller to the programme, Dr Sarah Jarvis, a regular caller on such matters judging by the way N.Campbell spoke to her, raised some issues starting at 24.00 mins which the Health Care Scientist who immediately followed, concurred with so you could just let it run from there (24.00mins) through the 28.10 interview with the Health Care Scientist. It ends at 36.00 (mins) so only 10 minutes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000hhf0

 

[JohnC6]

John, like you I am fanatical about cleaning my car and clean it very regularly — once a year before the MOT . This extension to the MOT is going to mean it will miss it’s annual clean .

John, like you I am fanatical about cleaning my car and clean it very regularly — once a year before the MOT . This extension to the MOT is going to mean it will miss it’s annual clean .

Lol..Shame on you, Richard..

 

[jonbeeza]

We are lucky as we live in a bungalow and we have a good sized front and back garden. We can go outdoors and avoid neighbours, while hanging out the washing, or getting some fresh air.

I don't bother to wipe packaging or letters down. I think the government advice was to wipe packaging down, or leave it for a good while before opening things. But they say we are unlikely to catch anything from food or food packaging. Does that include home food deliveries such as takeaways?

So why do they say people handling your takeaway is safe? While mail etc may not be, so give it a wipe down. We are going to order a takeaway, as the missus fancies one. But I have thought about who will be handling our food, but maybe I should not think too much on it.

 

[cambsno]

SAGE will be advising the government on mask-wearing soon. Over the weekend 100 doctors wrote to HMG urging that the decision should be that masks are worn but a scientist on the Five-Live phone-in this morning was not recommending them. She's a Health Care Scientist from the Society of Applied Microbiology.She did not advocate the wearing of a mask, especially home-made ones from material as they are porous. They don't protect the wearer but do inhibit the spread of droplets from a cough or a sneeze.They will mostly be ill-fitting and slip eg.. if someone bends down to check out items on low shelving in the supermarket. The best ones should go to those on the front-line . They cause people to touch their faces more than they normally would. They could give a false sense of protection. We're not used to wearing masks so they could have a detrimental psychological effect. They would also become moist and uncomfortable.

Infact, a caller to the programme, Dr Sarah Jarvis, a regular caller on such matters judging by the way N.Campbell spoke to her, raised some issues starting at 24.00 mins which the Health Care Scientist who immediately followed, concurred with so you could just let it run from there (24.00mins) through the 28.10 interview with the Health Care Scientist. It ends at 36.00 (mins) so only 10 minutes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000hhf0

I am not a fan of this at all. Having to wear masks means:

- More PPE used by us and taken from those that really need it like nurses
- You will touch your face more
- If droplets land on your mask you will breath them in
- You need correct handling of PPE to avoid transfer
- The WHO advise against it for most of us

No doubt the government will insist on it!

 

[jakeblu]

John, like you I am fanatical about cleaning my car and clean it very regularly — once a year before the MOT . This extension to the MOT is going to mean it will miss it’s annual clean .

Just cleaned my car today and like you, the last time my car was cleaned was in Oct when it went for its MOT and service, and the garage courtesy cleaned it for me

 

[nilagin]

Maybe, but the website doesn't say anything about best practice, its in the form of a FAQ in what you can and can't do. It's also still saying only exercise once a day unless your a dog owner that is. It is a little dated though, and if advice has changed, and seemingly it has, then the government really should be updating their FAQs.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...avirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

This wording in the FAQ's differs slightly from the Government guidelines instructions and the law regulations. For reasons leaving your home the FAQ's refers to it as "limited purposes" whilst the guidelines and regulations refer to it as "reasonable excuse"


You should only leave the house for very limited purposes:

• shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible
• one form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household
• any medical need, including to donate blood, avoid or escape risk of injury or harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person
• travelling for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home

The only way for those limitations or reasonable excuses to work is each one is treated in a limited manner.
If going shopping or picking up medicine, do just that, obviously you may need to get petrol or pump up tyres, but you shouldn't be detouring to do anything else.
Exercise, the only reason this has been added and is to maintain physical and mental health. An hour is more than enough to do both, nobody needs a half marathon run, to maintain physical or mental health. If you have a dog, it would both the persons exercise and dogs exercise should be limited to the same time.
Going to work if you can't work from home, no detours in either direction unless you go by a vehicle in need of fuel or pumping up tyres.

 

[nilagin]

I am not a fan of this at all. Having to wear masks means:

- More PPE used by us and taken from those that really need it like nurses
- You will touch your face more
- If droplets land on your mask you will breath them in
- You need correct handling of PPE to avoid transfer
- The WHO advise against it for most of us

No doubt the government will insist on it!

When I was a toolmaker I would wear a face mask to stop me inhaling grinding dust. I never felt the need to touch my face as a result. I would wear a mask for upto 4hrs, only removing it for tea breaks or lunch break. Each time the face mask came off it would go in the bin and be replaced with a new one. I can't see any problems in how they should be handled, basically if you need to touch it after initial fitting dispose of it and put on a replacement.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

We have two very dirty cars. Not cleaning them is the latest form of one upmanship as in "we're more isolationist than thee"...

 

[myotis]

This wording in the FAQ's differs slightly from the Government guidelines instructions and the law regulations. For reasons leaving your home the FAQ's refers to it as "limited purposes" whilst the guidelines and regulations refer to it as "reasonable excuse"

You do realise that the NPCC guidance isn't "Government" guidance, its advice from the Police to the Police (using CPS guidance, a body independent of Government), with examples, to help police officers exercise their discretionary powers to decide what is, and isn't. a "reasonable excuse" under the law.

It's not Government guidance/advice on what we should be doing to avoid spreading the virus, and only really useful if you want to avoid being arrested

 

[cambsno]

When I was a toolmaker I would wear a face mask to stop me inhaling grinding dust. I never felt the need to touch my face as a result. I would wear a mask for upto 4hrs, only removing it for tea breaks or lunch break. Each time the face mask came off it would go in the bin and be replaced with a new one. I can't see any problems in how they should be handled, basically if you need to touch it after initial fitting dispose of it and put on a replacement.

Because people are not used to wearing a mask, certianly not for day to day stuff (as opposed to do a specific job) - The WHO quoted the need to touch and false sense of security as a risk! We are also talking homemade masks which will not fit well, as well as what NHS bosses are worried about, further drains on PPE. If its a homemade mask you cant just dispose of it as you will need quite a stock. It has failure all over it!

 

[JohnC6]

I am not a fan of this at all. Having to wear masks means:

- More PPE used by us and taken from those that really need it like nurses
- You will touch your face more
- If droplets land on your mask you will breath them in
- You need correct handling of PPE to avoid transfer
- The WHO advise against it for most of us

No doubt the government will insist on it!

They might not, Simon. You're saying that the WHO are against it, however,I've read that they may change this advice and advise the wearing of them, generally. Then there are professionals like the two featured in the link..ie the doctor and the scientist who are against it too and no doubt many more professionals. I wouldn't say that it's a given. However, against that is the fact that more and more European countries are adopting that practice ordered by their respective governments..the latest being Germany to consider it. I see that Italy go with the WHO recommendation that only those with COVID-19 wear them(shouldn't they be remaining at home ? )or those caring for those with it along with those deemed vulnerable with 'underlying health conditions' which covers a large spectrum as I know you'll be aware of. I suppose HMG could issue a dictum to wear them because they won't want to be accused of failing to take all precautions if numbers of cases/deaths carry on longer than countries who did have regulations re the wearing of masks.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sk-may-be-our-best-weapon-to-stop-coronavirus

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/calls-grow-for-germany-wide-use-of-face-masks-covid-19

I haven't been out to shops or anywhere like that. My wife will sometimes go to our local M&S mini store at a garage for odds and sods but we get online delivery or click & collect which we're beginning to appreciate so we'll probably stay with it when all this is done .We just take a walk locally for 45 mins or so and I would be reluctant to wear a mask just to do that.

Here's what's going on in Spain https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...w-in-spain-during-coronavirus-state-of-alarm/