The virus. PPE. Part 1

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KitsuneAndy said:
I am not personally making decisions that cause the deaths of people I am supposed to be protecting in order to make profits.

Or indeed, making any decisions where someone's death is profitable for me.

The same cannot be said of our Govt and Rees-Mogg and his ilk.
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How are they making decisions which is profitable for them?
 
donetello said:
They may as well have called the lockdown off as nearly everyone seems to be ignoring it now,traffic has been non stop all day here so far.
A massive increase since yesterday when the sun wasn’t out.
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Where are you. Ok near me. Little traffic and more only people out are obviously in family groups exercising
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I think there are just 2 types of politician: those who have their eye on the next election and those who just want to do the right thing. Reports that the latter kind have been sighted are few and far between.
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I suspect that at any one time, there are far more of the latter than we might think, it's just that they are the ones that remain largely unknown and unlikely to progress within their party.

I had a period of watching Parliament Live a year or two ago and I was surprisingly impressed by the quality of debate and the genuine concern for doing the right thing. It was also noticeable that this was usually in a nearly empty house with MPs I had usually never heard of!
 
tarric said:
This was posted on an other thread but it gives some insight into our leaders thought about coronavirus at the time (Feb 2020) and maybe an insight into the reason so little preparation was being done.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=672297696660937
View: https://www.facebook.com/SKWAWKBOX/videos/672297696660937/?t=3
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That was the moment he could have done a “Churchill”, instead he did a “Chamberlain”, ‘everything’s going to be fine’ speech :(.
 
cambsno said:
How are they making decisions which is profitable for them?
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See Boris' speech in Feb, and Rees-Moggs comments about investments. Boris' view seemed to be clearly putting the economy before the people, that seems to have been the driving force in being late into lockdown. Because it could have been profitable. Probably also why even the lockdown is pretty half hearted unless you work in retail.
 
tijuana taxi said:
Even worse will be the rushed exit strategy because of greed.
Talk of opening Garden Centres early next month, do we really need bedding plants?
Also talk of opening schools, kids won't bother with distancing, its not about education just childcare

If we exit lockdown too quickly and things go bad it will be sticking two fingers up at the NHS workers
This government have got a lot wrong so far, about time they did the right thing
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Gardening is quite therapeutic, allowing people to buy & plant bedding plants could deliver a serious mental health boost for some people, as long as the garden centres (& shoppers) observe the social distancing advice.
 
As a few have stated re the Times article..disturbing..

I was looking at the time-line. Jan 22nd. First meeting of SAGE.(Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies) The same day that Chinese scientists were warning that the virus had an unusually high infectivity rate of 3.0.ie one person would infect three.

Jan 24 a Cobra meeting re the onward march of the virus and associated deaths. After just one hour Matt Hancock states risk to UK low despite the Lancet article on the same day suggesting it was comparable to the 1918 Spanish 'flu which killed up to 50 million worldwide. Bosis wasn't at the meeting because..how ironic..he's at a lunar new year dragon eyes ritual with the Chinese ambassador including the Chinese community.

Late January early February dire warnings were being given by the scientists not to mention the same level of warning given to one of governments own key advisory committes a month earlier than had been previously admitted. Over the following weeks a

By Feb 21st the visus had infected 76,000 people and killed 2,300 in Chiuna and was taking hold in Europwe . ttention was now focusing on getting enough PPE.

Feb 26th. 13 known cases in the UK.Another advisory committee advised the government that unless drastic action was taken there would be a catastrophic loss of life. Feb 28 the virus has taken hold in the UK (now 19 cases)and stock markets have plummeted.

March 2nd Boris attends a COBRA meeting.

Here's the point of my post. It hasn't been mentioned in the Sunday Times article.

March 11th. In the knowledge of all the above how can any responsible person think that allowing a Champions League game between Liverpool and Real Madrid to go ahead with a crowd of more than 50,000 supporters was a reasonable risk to take ? 3000 of them were AM supporters and only the day before Spain had banned gatherings of more than 1000.

March 10-13th. Even worse re numbers. An estimated 250,000 race-goers attend the Cheltenham Festival each year and it went ahead. I said on here at the time that I thought that ministers had been leaned on by the Race Course owners/management and also the betting industry which stood to lose millions. I also said that that it was inevitable that some would contract the virus but that we'd never know. I was wrong. On social media there have been reports of people who have contracted COVID-19 and attended the race meeting. I have to say that the race-goers themselves had a responsibility not to attend. I recall saying to my wife that the government will wait until it over then announce a ban on large gatherings like this and so it was. I think two or three days later.Probably three so it didn't look too obvious.

There was another high profile event,which I can't bring to mind, that went ahead and shouldn't have done. The Bath half-marathon comes to mind March 15th. with 6200 runners.

ancient-mariner sates that there should be resignations and rightly so but in this country it seldom happens, even worse the guilty are either financially rewarded with bonuses (that's the least worst) or promoted at a later date or go on to head up other organisations..but hey..'Lessons will be learned.' For decades we've heard this mantra rolled out from mainly Social Services management....before the consequences of government cuts became the norm should anyone make that point re cut-backs.

The latest example that comes to mind is the Grenfell Tower fire. June 2017. This article dated June 2018
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-conservative-government-labour-a8397506.html

This is a lengthy article but worth a read over time and sheds a light on the way we are governed ."Why is Britain badly governed. Policy Blunders from 1980-2010'. This current debacle is yet more grist to the mill.

https://www.psa.ac.uk/insight-plus/why-britain-badly-governed-policy-blunders-1980-2010
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
See Boris' speech in Feb, and Rees-Moggs comments about investments. Boris' view seemed to be clearly putting the economy before the people, that seems to have been the driving force in being late into lockdown. Because it could have been profitable. Probably also why even the lockdown is pretty half hearted unless you work in retail.
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Would that economy be the one that every single person in this country, relies upon in some way?
 
broc said:
Gardening is quite therapeutic, allowing people to buy & plant bedding plants could deliver a serious mental health boost for some people, as long as the garden centres (& shoppers) observe the social distancing advice.
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Though plants (some) are available by mail and seeds of course.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
See Boris' speech in Feb, and Rees-Moggs comments about investments. Boris' view seemed to be clearly putting the economy before the people, that seems to have been the driving force in being late into lockdown. Because it could have been profitable. Probably also why even the lockdown is pretty half hearted unless you work in retail.
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At some point the economy will have to come first - the longer we stay like this the more lives will be lost elsewhere in lost treatments or diagnosis for other illnesses, for mental health issues. Its a balancing act.
 
JohnC6 said:
.

The latest example that comes to mind is the Grenfell Tower fire. June 2017. This article dated June 2018
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-conservative-government-labour-a8397506.html

This is a lengthy article but worth a read over time and sheds a light on the way we are governed ."Why is Britain badly governed. Policy Blunders from 1980-2010'. This current debacle is yet more grist to the mill.

https://www.psa.ac.uk/insight-plus/why-britain-badly-governed-policy-blunders-1980-2010
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Thanks, John, though a depressing read :( but so true.
 
JohnC6 said:
As a few have stated re the Times article..disturbing..

I was looking at the time-line. Jan 22nd. First meeting of SAGE.(Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies) The same day that Chinese scientists were warning that the virus had an unusually high infectivity rate of 3.0.ie one person would infect three.

Jan 24 a Cobra meeting re the onward march of the virus and associated deaths. After just one hour Matt Hancock states risk to UK low despite the Lancet article on the same day suggesting it was comparable to the 1918 Spanish 'flu which killed up to 50 million worldwide. Bosis wasn't at the meeting because..how ironic..he's at a lunar new year dragon eyes ritual with the Chinese ambassador including the Chinese community.

Late January early February dire warnings were being given by the scientists not to mention the same level of warning given to one of governments own key advisory committes a month earlier than had been previously admitted. Over the following weeks a

By Feb 21st the visus had infected 76,000 people and killed 2,300 in Chiuna and was taking hold in Europwe . ttention was now focusing on getting enough PPE.

Feb 26th. 13 known cases in the UK.Another advisory committee advised the government that unless drastic action was taken there would be a catastrophic loss of life. Feb 28 the virus has taken hold in the UK (now 19 cases)and stock markets have plummeted.

March 2nd Boris attends a COBRA meeting.

Here's the point of my post. It hasn't been mentioned in the Sunday Times article.

March 11th. In the knowledge of all the above how can any responsible person think that allowing a Champions League game between Liverpool and Real Madrid to go ahead with a crowd of more than 50,000 supporters was a reasonable risk to take ? 3000 of them were AM supporters and only the day before Spain had banned gatherings of more than 1000.

March 10-13th. Even worse re numbers. An estimated 250,000 race-goers attend the Cheltenham Festival each year and it went ahead. I said on here at the time that I thought that ministers had been leaned on by the Race Course owners/management and also the betting industry which stood to lose millions. I also said that that it was inevitable that some would contract the virus but that we'd never know. I was wrong. On social media there have been reports of people who have contracted COVID-19 and attended the race meeting. I have to say that the race-goers themselves had a responsibility not to attend. I recall saying to my wife that the government will wait until it over then announce a ban on large gatherings like this and so it was. I think two or three days later.Probably three so it didn't look too obvious.

There was another high profile event,which I can't bring to mind, that went ahead and shouldn't have done. The Bath half-marathon comes to mind March 15th. with 6200 runners.

ancient-mariner sates that there should be resignations and rightly so but in this country it seldom happens, even worse the guilty are either financially rewarded with bonuses (that's the least worst) or promoted at a later date or go on to head up other organisations..but hey..'Lessons will be learned.' For decades we've heard this mantra rolled out from mainly Social Services management....before the consequences of government cuts became the norm should anyone make that point re cut-backs.

The latest example that comes to mind is the Grenfell Tower fire. June 2017. This article dated June 2018
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-conservative-government-labour-a8397506.html

This is a lengthy article but worth a read over time and sheds a light on the way we are governed ."Why is Britain badly governed. Policy Blunders from 1980-2010'. This current debacle is yet more grist to the mill.

https://www.psa.ac.uk/insight-plus/why-britain-badly-governed-policy-blunders-1980-2010
Click to expand...

Was the other event the 2 night Stereophinics concerts in Cardiff March 14th and 15th? Aso just as bad was the Wales-Scotland 6 nations game (sat 14th March) that was called off the night before,even though an estimated 40000 Scotland supporters had already travelled?
 
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sphexx said:
That was the moment he could have done a “Churchill”, instead he did a “Chamberlain”, ‘everything’s going to be fine’ speech :(.
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We can only hope that there is at the very least a full public inquiry post CV-19.
 
Fuji Dave said:
If blaming anyone then it must be China first of all if this is true, they will have a lot to answer too after this. It is from the fail though.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coro...500-virus-strains/ar-BB12QC1E?ocid=spartandhp
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That's a temperature seal, not a biological seal. It's to keep the heat out, not the virus in. Whatever those samples are, they look like they are in sealed tubes, as you'd expect. Presumably the freezers are in a secure facility. The second paragraph has a serious error - 'the bat coronavirus which has jumped to humans with such devastating effect' was not stored at the Institute as far as we know. A bat virus that shares a common ancestor with the human virus (maybe 50 years ago) has been identified by researchers at the Institute, but it's not the immediate progenitor of the human virus. That progenitor has not been identified and may never been identified - if it still exists it may be in a bat cave somewhere, or perhaps in an intermediate host like the pangolin (another related virus that has been found in pangolins isn't the immediate progenitor of the human virus either). The story about a lab worker who was supposedly infected in Wuhan seems to come from a Fox News report based on unidentified intelligence 'sources', and sounds suspiciously like a conspiracy theory that was circulating on social media.
 
mex said:
We can only hope that there is at the very least a full public inquiry post CV-19.
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I've no doubt there will be there's got to be some jobs for the boys leading an inquiry into this f****p, will there be any blame apportioned probably but only to the care workers who have tried their best throughout this crisis putting their life's at risk due to government incompetence, will any of the people that are really to blame be held accountable NO, will lessons be learned NO.
 
mex said:
Was the other event the 2 night Stereophinics concerts in Cardiff March 14th and 15th? Aso just as bad was the Wales-Scotland 6 nations game (sat 14th March) that was called off the night before,even though an estimated 40000 Scotland supporters had already travelled?
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I expect there were many such events that really shouldn't have gone ahead but money talks, as they say. It's just my own thoughts but I think the attitude was ' we're prepared for months for this (whatever event) it's cost a lot, we need to get a return and we'll probably just about get away with it before any restrictions are brought in'
 
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mex said:
We can only hope that there is at the very least a full public inquiry post CV-19.
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Waste of time. It will be the fault of the Chinese and Dave from Bolton who got his mates round for a BBQ, as well as Jane from Dorking who stood 1 metre away from someone in the veg aisle at Waitrose. No doubt us being tied to EU rules will also be a factor. [emoji6]
 
Fuji Dave said:
Lovely sunny day here in Brighton and Hove :eek:

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/18390181.25-photos-showing-brighton-hove-seafront-looks-like-today/
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donetello said:
Complete and utter A holes some people unfortunately.
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The mind boggles. Earlier my wife asked me if I thought it would be ok for her to go to Morrisons (she won't let me go) for some broccoli/peas and double cream for dinner. She did. I'll show her the link, that will make her feel less guilty.
 
Fuji Dave said:
If blaming anyone then it must be China first of all if this is true, they will have a lot to answer too after this. It is from the fail though.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coro...500-virus-strains/ar-BB12QC1E?ocid=spartandhp
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I don’t think “blaming” China is appropriate, it’s a disease. Criticism, yes, but largely irrelevant to what’s happened here. The disease arose in China but a similar pandemic could have come from almost anywhere in Africa, Asia or the Middle East, or from Kansas like the ”Spanish” Flu. Our response would have been just as disastrous!

Edit: typo.
 
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sphexx said:
I don’t think “blaming” China is appropriate, it’s a disease. Criticism, yes, but largely irrelevant to what’s happened here. The disease arose in a China but a similar pandemic could have come from almost anywhere in Africa, Asia or the Middle East, or from Kansas like the ”Spanish” Flu. Our response would have been just as disastrous!
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And even if true, a lab technician accidentally infecting himself is a far cry from what some people are saying. Were they late in informing us? Probably.

Did we react in a timely and appropriate manner when it was clear how contagious it was? Definitely not.
 
nilagin said:
But as the majority won't be dead?
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But the quarter million that were predicted dead by Boris' herd immunity plan would be. And that was a conservative estimate. If the mortality rate was 1% and he wanted 60% of the population to get it, then that'd be 420,000 people dead.

Economies recover from downturns. Dead people don't come back.
 
cambsno said:
Hard to say from the pics but the one of Hove lawns especially it looks like people are keeping social distancing.
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Mmm. On a still, it probably does but may not in a video taken over 15 minutes, say but as you suggest, on the face of it the lawns area looks ok. Re the Prom..I can't see how they can keep to 2m on that prom, there must be some coming together . I think the problem is when someone coughs rather than just walking past each other, though but maybe I'm wrong on that.I wonder if the police attended. Maybe they did and thought ..'this is too hard'..lol. and do a left/right turn away from the area. :)
 
KitsuneAndy said:
But the quarter million that were predicted dead by Boris' herd immunity plan would be. And that was a conservative estimate. If the mortality rate was 1% and he wanted 60% of the population to get it, then that'd be 420,000 people dead.

Economies recover from downturns. Dead people don't come back.
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I heard that Trump was suggesting to "Let it wash over the country". There are some marked similarities between Boris and Trump. Neither like detail but favour the big project and fail to grasp the significance of matters at hand. I just happen to see that he gives a briefing at 5.00pm ,10.00pm our time and I watch it on CNN. Maybe it's on BBC News24 here or Sky.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
And even if true, a lab technician accidentally infecting himself is a far cry from what some people are saying. Were they late in informing us? Probably.

Did we react in a timely and appropriate manner when it was clear how contagious it was? Definitely not.
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I have recently (maybe on here?) that the technician story first came to light via Fox news, enough said about that then?
 
JohnC6 said:
I heard that Trump was suggesting to "Let it wash over the country". There are some marked similarities between Boris and Trump. Neither like detail but favour the big project and fail to grasp the significance of matters at hand. I just happen to see that he gives a briefing at 5.00pm ,10.00pm our time and I watch it on CNN. Maybe it's on BBC News24 here or Sky.
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Both are both as thick as pig s***.
 
tarric said:
As your initial response seemed to be in favour of the economy probably not.
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I am just realistic. A balance has to be found. Like I said before, it's easy to hide behind a keyboard criticising etc. when you're not the one actually having to make the difficult decisions.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
But the quarter million that were predicted dead by Boris' herd immunity plan would be. And that was a conservative estimate. If the mortality rate was 1% and he wanted 60% of the population to get it, then that'd be 420,000 people dead.

Economies recover from downturns. Dead people don't come back.
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But we have gone away from the herd immunity plan, that lasted all of about a week, so 420k is unlikely to happen.
People have died, more will die, there is no way of knowing how the numbers would have differed had the lockdown been imposed earlier. You just have to accept collateral and move on.
As I said before it is all too easy for you to hide behind your keyboard, saying they should have done this and that, after the fact and when you aren't the one having to make the decisions.
A crashed economy probably won't hurt a lot of people, but businesses are already going bankrupt and more are likely to follow. As a result of lost jobs, some people commit suicide. Loss of a life due to COVID19 isn't worth anymore than that of a person that commits suicide, or a victim of domestic abuse. So a balance has to be found and hope that deaths on all counts can be kept to a minimum.
 
We can all criticise the actions taken in this crisis, but it's not something that has happened in recent times, the governments of all countries can only act on the information and advice they are given by the so called experts and we don't know who have been advising them and who have just spoken to the press.
A short while ago there was complaints about not having enough ventilators, now it seems these may do more harm then good
in some cases, yet there was a mass effort to make and supply them.
We now have conflicting statements about protective clothing, the internet causes far too much confusion and arguments.
 
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