The virus. PPE. Part 1

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We have some brave people out there, very distressing hearing about this bus driver writing letters to her family members in case she doesn't make it.

 
Retune said:
'I am a swab tester in the UK – but we have barely any swabs to test'

'While Germany and South Korea have tested in huge numbers, the response here is hampered by lack of political will'

'When health secretary Matt Hancock visited our Milton Keynes laboratory last Thursday, he avowed that our jobs were crucial, and thanked us for our service. Our workplace, where we test patient samples for the virus, has been called the “biggest diagnostic lab network in British history”, with capacity to process more than 5,000 swabs, eventually projected to reach 30,000 swabs per day. And yet at our testing centre on Tuesday this week, we processed just over 1,000 samples. The day before, the total was 1,300, and three days ago 1,800. Our shifts were meant to be excruciating 12-hour marathons. In reality, they are rather more like laid-back morning jogs. Dozens of academics and laboratory personnel from all over the UK languish in a hotel with nothing to do. Millions of pounds of equipment borrowed from universities and companies rests silently in the evening hours, when the noise of our collective toil should be deafening. The problem does not lie in the laboratories, or the personnel. The UK has an army of skilled researchers at its disposal. More than 1,200 scientists had volunteered their expertise in the fight against coronavirus in Cambridge alone by early April. Dozens signed up to help in Milton Keynes. The equipment and reagents are all available, now that Thermo Fisher Scientific has confirmed it will supply the UK with all the testing kits it needs. And “scale up” has been the mantra at Milton Keynes since I arrived last Monday. We were promised 5,000 samples “to begin with”. We never saw those numbers. They told us we should prepare for a 24-hour operation, but we are done in four or five.
...
We are all being let down by a government that may have decided testing is, after all, not that important, despite the successful examples set by South Korea and Germany. On 12 April, the United States performed 140,000 tests. Italy more than 48,000. Turkey 35,000. Germany is averaging 50,000 a day. In the UK, total tests numbered just short of 16,000 on Tuesday. Just in our lab, we could have easily done 8,000. We are ready; why aren’t we being sent more swabs?'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/16/swab-tester-uk-germany-south-korea
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This is curious. There's been an incredible investment in materiel, personnel, yet the author says there are no swabs - I presume he means samples taken from patients to test, rather than sticks with cottonwool either end - for testing. Certainly the government is responsible ultimately for getting testing done, but why aren't people taking samples? Does Matt Hancock have to take each one personally, or is there some kind of infrastructure that's almost completely failed to actually do anything?
 
There was a interview with a care home manager on telly yesterday. The swab procedure is drive through on a one person per car basis in an out of town location. She employs 18 staff without driving licences....

There was another drive through centre shown where all swabbing stopped for an hour whilst the testers took lunch at the same time.(there may be ppe requirements here???)
 
And on Bank Holiday Monday just gone, one of the drive through testing centres in Wales decided to close for the Bank Holiday, absolutely beggars belief!
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
This is what the tweet said.....

They are waiting for #BorisJohnson to be fit enough to announce the easing of the lockdown.

That's not the same as Boris Johnson won't appear until the restrictions are eased.
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OK, I see what you mean now, though it’s a bit of a distinction without a difference. Only Johnson can announce he’s fit to return or someone else with his permission, so he can choose his time, once he is approximately fit :).
 
ancient_mariner said:
This is curious. There's been an incredible investment in materiel, personnel, yet the author says there are no swabs - I presume he means samples taken from patients to test, rather than sticks with cottonwool either end - for testing. Certainly the government is responsible ultimately for getting testing done, but why aren't people taking samples? Does Matt Hancock have to take each one personally, or is there some kind of infrastructure that's almost completely failed to actually do anything?
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I don't quite know what to make of this situation. I would like to hear the opinions of those taking the swabs. Often when a process is faltering the reasons filter down through the grapevine and get to the ears of people who will happily "blow the whistle".
 
arclight said:
I don't quite know what to make of this situation. I would like to hear the opinions of those taking the swabs. Often when a process is faltering the reasons filter down through the grapevine and get to the ears of people who will happily "blow the whistle".
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I trained at Porton a few years back to go to Sierra Leone for Ebola screening, but didn't go in the end. The way things were organised didn't seem effective or efficient, and it's hard to know why. At the time I assumed it was my R&D background not fitting with a strictly controlled clinical diagnostic approach - and I was not a good fit - but in retrospect I really wonder if the organisation just isn't terribly effective. Lots of really good people there, but it all felt just 'difficult'.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I trained at Porton a few years back to go to Sierra Leone for Ebola screening, but didn't go in the end. The way things were organised didn't seem effective or efficient, and it's hard to know why. At the time I assumed it was my R&D background not fitting with a strictly controlled clinical diagnostic approach - and I was not a good fit - but in retrospect I really wonder if the organisation just isn't terribly effective. Lots of really good people there, but it all felt just 'difficult'.
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I guess Porton may be a bit exceptional because of the security aspect ... and maybe other reasons :(.
 
Just been reading some numbers out re crime etc in relation to the current situation and worryingly domestic violence has increased by 3% year on year. That's another issue that rankles with me. ie. the act of violence, physical or mental and how the victims and often the children are taken out of their home and placed into another home or a refuge.

Crime down especially rape and burglary but 178,000 recorded incidents of ant-social behaviour. That's a 59% increase year on year. I wonder how many incidents are caused by people doing what that man did in a supermarket..cough at people. Nialgin posted the man's selfie saying that he hoped he would be identified. Two young men were arrested for licking their hands and smearing their saliva on meat, veg and fridge handles. That was in Sainsburys,Morecombe. I think they got a 10 month custodial sentence each for that. In the US that would have attracted a charge of terrorism. On Radio-Five Live I heard callers telling of cyclists going past people very closely and inevitably without warning coming from behind ,another said a runner brushed shoulders with her as he went by sweating and breathing heavily. A care worker was seen in a supermarket wearing here Care Home uniform leaning against shelving whilst speakin g on her mobile. Two young people passed a man on a pathway and started coughing at him and laughing. He admitted to hurling obscene abuse at them.I wouldn't be surprised if people lost their tempers and blows have been exchanged. Nurses and police officers have been spat at. Most people are being responsible but there are too many incidents like these and reports of people disregarding the lockdown rules. Another three weeks and maybe even longer is going to be testing people to their limits.

There's one issue that the lockdown has put a stop to and gone unnoticed..in my opinion. Knife crime. It was almost nightly that news bulletins were reporting the death (murder or manslaughter) of a youth, usually black kids, in a mindless act of extreme violence followed by harrowing interviews of the parents ,siblings ,wider family and friends.Often these youths had no involvement in crime or street gangs..seems the wrong 'look' can be interpreted as 'disrespecting' someone..ie dissing, I think it's called. Some of the victims had promising careers ahead of them..As I recall one was at the Arsenal academy. Another,an Asian lad had his A levels and wanted to go into medicine. I'm hoping that when this is all over the cycle of knife crime will have been broken. Social distancing is going to be with us for a good while yet.

Here's the report
https://www.expressandstar.com/news...mid-pandemic-but-anti-social-behaviour-up-59/

Just off to watch what's left on TV of another (yet another) issue that gets my BP up ..lol. It's on now Chn4. 'The Truth about Travellers'..who don't actually do much travelling these days. It's focusing on the issue of crime. 9.00-10.00pm.I expect their apologists will voicing their opinion. Didn't get enough sugar on their cornflakes when they were kids.
 
ancient_mariner said:
The way things were organised didn't seem effective or efficient, and it's hard to know why.
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Possibly because clinicians are a conservative bunch and if the original procedure was published and peer-reviewed in 1724 and nobody made a peer-reviewed new method since - they'll still be using the method from 1724 without modification.
 
True
Rapscallion said:
Whilst it is difficult to recall with absolute accuracy my past attitudes, I have a niggling feeling that if I was eighteen years old and something like this happened, I would very possibly have met up with friends. Young men are reckless and I used to be one...
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True ,Phil but probably not when a killer virus is decimating the country but I take your point.
 
Isn't the section about exercise in the now published police guidance about what is likely to be reasonable activity go against the government advice?

"Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving)."
Source - https://www.college.police.uk/What-...fNkvswhO3udJfT7Sef0-1b1BGggLu5wlRGfAjh8IPcU_M

The government guidance is - "stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily"
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-guidance-on-access-to-green-spaces

I assume from the police guidance I could drive from Birmingham to Edale, which would take me about 2 hours, and then take a walk for 4 hours and that would be OK.

Dave
 
Tringa said:
Isn't the section about exercise in the now published police guidance about what is likely to be reasonable activity go against the government advice?

"Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving)."
Source - https://www.college.police.uk/What-...fNkvswhO3udJfT7Sef0-1b1BGggLu5wlRGfAjh8IPcU_M

The government guidance is - "stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily"
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-guidance-on-access-to-green-spaces

I assume from the police guidance I could drive from Birmingham to Edale, which would take me about 2 hours, and then take a walk for 4 hours and that would be OK.

Dave
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Yep, contradict each other.

Clear as mud, just like the rest of the approach to this has been!

I like the "reasons you still have to go to work" and an acceptable one being "your employer has requested it".
 
Tringa said:
Isn't the section about exercise in the now published police guidance about what is likely to be reasonable activity go against the government advice?

"Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving)."
Source - https://www.college.police.uk/What-...fNkvswhO3udJfT7Sef0-1b1BGggLu5wlRGfAjh8IPcU_M

The government guidance is - "stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily"
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-guidance-on-access-to-green-spaces

I assume from the police guidance I could drive from Birmingham to Edale, which would take me about 2 hours, and then take a walk for 4 hours and that would be OK.

Dave
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I thought the same about folks driving a fair distance, then arguing its allowed because I was walking for longer than I was driving.
I feel it's more for folks that drive for 10-15 mins to a place to walk.
I think they should have officially put a time limit on it, like an hours max, to include driving, but exercise must be more than total driving time.
So you could do a 10 mins each way trip then walk for 40 minutes but you couldn't drive for 20 mins each way and exercise for 20 mins.

Or they could make it simple with max drive 3 miles say.

I do agree though, that this will increase driving which goes against government advice of no unnecessary travel, unless travelling for exercising is now considered necessary?

People have just been given permission by the police to completely take the pi$$.
 
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Tringa said:
Isn't the section about exercise in the now published police guidance about what is likely to be reasonable activity go against the government advice?

"Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving)."
Source - https://www.college.police.uk/What-...fNkvswhO3udJfT7Sef0-1b1BGggLu5wlRGfAjh8IPcU_M

The government guidance is - "stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily"
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-guidance-on-access-to-green-spaces

I assume from the police guidance I could drive from Birmingham to Edale, which would take me about 2 hours, and then take a walk for 4 hours and that would be OK.

Dave
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The problem is the guidance was formulated before the legislation, hence the confusion. Things in the guidance weren't even included in the Regulations.

As an example, the regulation on exercise says:

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b) to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;
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There is no restriction on distance, time, location or type of exercise allowed. If someone in Leeds decided a walk at Land's End was to be their daily exercise they wouldn't be breaking the law.

The going out for shopping/medicine/household maintenance/money section is equally vague.
 
Tringa said:
I assume from the police guidance I could drive from Birmingham to Edale, which would take me about 2 hours, and then take a walk for 4 hours and that would be OK.

Dave
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Except isn't the underlying guidance to keep the time away from your home to between 30 minutes and an hour?
 
Donnie said:
Aye like Ireland have, 2km from your home, thats your limit.
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And then some do-gooder would exclaim "what about people that have no green space within 2km". I honestly think the Govt are in a no-win situation, they expected people to use common sense and have a policy flexible enough to allow the police some degree of interpretation, but it seems there are too many idiots about for that to have been a successful approach.
 
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Dave1 said:
The problem is the guidance was formulated before the legislation, hence the confusion. Things in the guidance weren't even included in the Regulations.
There is no restriction on distance, time, location or type of exercise allowed. If someone in Leeds decided a walk at Land's End was to be their daily exercise they wouldn't be breaking the law.
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Only if you consider walking from Leeds to Lands End for exercises, given the advice from the government is to restrict exercise to 30 minutes or an hour is "reasonable".

If the Government, Police and courts decide that your excuse for this journey being "essential exercise" isn't reasonable, then you would be breaking the law.
 
People driving here to walk their dogs yesterday in the hour I was out.
Some also had two and three kids and picnic baskets.
 

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I recall a drive of 5 minutes was allowed to get somewhere to go for a walk, but I can't for the life or remember where I heard it!
 
bass_junkie83 said:
I recall a drive of 5 minutes was allowed to get somewhere to go for a walk, but I can't for the life or remember where I heard it!
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Matt Hancock said it on the BBC during an interview when he was asked about length and duration of exercise, the gist was that it shouldn't be more than an about an hour in total and if you had nowhere local to exercise, up to a 5 minute drive would be considered reasonable.
 
Some of this documenting and reporting on others including neighbours is becoming faintly Stasi like
Very interesting museum in Berlin at their old HQ, fascinating and chilling at the same time
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Didn't notice your post, although your post makes it sound like a other 1290 have died, rather that it being a revised figure... ;)
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I used the word recorded, because updated figures sometimes include previous deaths that hadn't been counted.
 
Tringa said:
Isn't the section about exercise in the now published police guidance about what is likely to be reasonable activity go against the government advice?

"Driving to countryside and walking (where far more time is spent walking than driving)."
Source - https://www.college.police.uk/What-...fNkvswhO3udJfT7Sef0-1b1BGggLu5wlRGfAjh8IPcU_M

The government guidance is - "stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily"
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coronavirus-guidance-on-access-to-green-spaces

I assume from the police guidance I could drive from Birmingham to Edale, which would take me about 2 hours, and then take a walk for 4 hours and that would be OK.

Dave
Click to expand...

Although, I don't find these statements contradictory, once you put them into the context of the consistent advice of restricting your exercise period to around an hour. I do find the following statement incompatible with everything I have heard from the government on how we should be restricting our allotted exercise time.

"Stopping to rest or to eat lunch while on a long walk."

How can you have a "long walk" that requires lunch, when restricted to being out for an hour.
 
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I wonder if the police guidance about driving to take exercise was ever shown to the government before it was sent out.

Given every one of the daily Covid updates has included, pretty forcefully, the advice - stay at home, I can't imagine the government is happy with a definition of what is likely to be reasonable being, its OK to drive almost anywhere and for any length of time so long as the exercise you last far longer than the drive.

Dave
 
myotis said:
Although, I don't find these statements contradictory, once you put them into the context of the consistent advice of restricting your exercise period to around an hour. I do find the following statement incompatible with everything I have heard from the government on how we should be restricting our allotted exercise time.

"Stopping to rest or to eat lunch while on a long walk."

How can you have a "long walk" that requires lunch, when restricted to being out for an hour.
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Work? You get an hours lunch and want to combine that with exercise?
 
I've been out in the car!

Doesn't qualify as naughty though, because it was to pick up essential medicine. Felt very strange as mine was the only car moving on most of the journey both there and back. :sulk:
 
cambsno said:
Work? You get an hours lunch and want to combine that with exercise?
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I can't see how this is relevant, to the point I made, if you can't fit in a "long walk" within an hour, how can you fit in lunch AND a long walk into the hour.
 
myotis said:
I can't see how this is relevant, to the point I made, if you can't fit in a "long walk" within an hour, how can you fit in lunch AND a long walk into the hour.
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Define long? My dad would find a mile walk a long one.
 
If anyone is interested Matt Hancock is now answering questions to the Select committee which is headed by..er..Jeremy Hunt. :)

It's on the Parliament Channel which for Sky is 504.
 
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