The virus. PPE. Part 1

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CPAP is already being used widely for those between what Boris got and those that are on ventilators.

Basically what CPAP is a continuous pressure in the airways to open them up and keep the alveoli open in the lungs to allow oxygen to get in the bloodstream and carbon dioxide back out. In normal (non diseased) lungs these tiny alveoli will open and close as you breath, some will completely close flat and reopen and thats fine in healthly lungs.
However if you have fluid on the lungs or lets say a chest infection where you're coughing up that horrible green or yellow sputum, well that is in your lungs and sometimes those alveoli either get filled with it (now they cannot exchange oxygen) or they get sticky and when the alveoli close, they stay closed (again now they cannot exchange oxygen).

Edit to add a sort of weird layman example of CPAP using a packet of baloons.

So, imagine a packet of blow up balloons, take one out put it on the table, it's flat. Thats a healthy closed air sac / alveoli in a lung.
Now putting the balloon in your mouth and pump it right up - thats the same alveoli as you've breathed in.
Now let almost all the air out - that's CPAP

Hope that makes sense.
 
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BIPAP adds "breathing in" support pressure to a baseline "breathing out" continuous pressure (a CPAP equivalent). BIPAP and CPAP both are used as and when required, have been for decades.

BIPAP exists as a useful mode on my ventilators, but a standard "ward" BIPAP machine is mainly a facemask device, with instant overpressure safeguarding mainly through facemask leakage. Jailbreaking a non invasive machine to use on patients with tracheal tubes inserted sounds an ingenious idea, but I'd expect the manufacturers and profession will want assurance the machines could handle the extra duty. I personally don't think the flow sensors etc. are up to it, they're not designed to the same tolerances, instant overpressure on a closed lung circuit can be catastrophic.
 
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danbroad said:
.....instant overpressure on a closed lung circuit can be catastrophic.
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Exactly and before we know it we'll have a shortage of chest tubes!
 
Donnie said:
CPAP is already being used widely for those between what Boris got and those that are on ventilators.

Basically what CPAP is a continuous pressure in the airways to open them up and keep the alveoli open in the lungs to allow oxygen to get in the bloodstream and carbon dioxide back out. In normal (non diseased) lungs these tiny alveoli will open and close as you breath, some will completely close flat and reopen and thats fine in healthly lungs.
However if you have fluid on the lungs or lets say a chest infection where you're coughing up that horrible green or yellow sputum, well that is in your lungs and sometimes those alveoli either get filled with it (now they cannot exchange oxygen) or they get sticky and when the alveoli close, they stay closed (again now they cannot exchange oxygen).

Edit to add a sort of weird layman example of CPAP using a packet of baloons.

So, imagine a packet of blow up balloons, take one out put it on the table, it's flat. Thats a healthy closed air sac / alveoli in a lung.
Now putting the balloon in your mouth and pump it right up - thats the same alveoli as you've breathed in.
Now let almost all the air out - that's CPAP

Hope that makes sense.
Click to expand...

I was surprised to hear that CPAP was being used in place of ventilators, desperation I suppose. My only experience of this is in reviving rats :) and I don’t think the techniques are transferable:(.
 
'We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to listen'
'For 11 fateful days in March, the government ignored the best coronavirus advice. It must learn from that mistake'

'It’s now clear that so many people have died, and so many more are desperately ill, simply because our politicians refused to listen to and act on advice. Scientists like us said lock down earlier; we said test, trace, isolate. But they decided they knew better. Am I being unfair? The government assures us that its decisions and timing are based on science, as if it is a neutral, value-free process resulting in a specific set of instructions. In reality, the science around coronavirus is in its infancy and developing daily, with researchers across the world trying to understand how the virus spreads, how the body responds – and how to treat it and control it. The speed at which our knowledge has increased is impressive, from the sequencing of the virus in January through to having candidate vaccines in early February. ... When I say that politicians “refused to listen”, I am referring to the advice and recommendations coming from the World Health Organization, from China and from Italy. The WHO advice, based on decades of experience and widely accepted by public health leaders and scientists around the world was clear – use every possible tool to suppress transmission. That meant testing and isolating cases, tracing and quarantining contacts, and ramping up hygiene efforts. The UK did well in the early phase, but then, on 12 March, the government alarmed many public health experts by abruptly abandoning containment and announcing that community case-finding and contact-tracing would stop. The aim was no longer to stop people getting it, but to slow it down while protecting the vulnerable. And yet social distancing was not recommended then. That day, 12 March, after hearing with disbelief the government announcement that didn’t include widespread social distancing, I recommended to my team at Imperial that they should work from home for the foreseeable future. Indeed, I have not been to my office since. ... Between 12 and 23 March, tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of people will have been infected. Boris Johnson himself may well have been infected that week, and his stay in the intensive care unit may have been avoided if the government had shifted to remote working on 12 March. The current best estimate is that around 1% of those infected will die. ... I am not looking to blame – but for scrutiny so that lessons can be learned to guide our response. We need to avoid further mistakes, and ensure that the government is hearing, and acting on, the best advice.'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/uk-government-coronavirus-science-who-advice
 
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Now over 2 million recorded cases, which is probably at least an order of magnitude below the real figure. Over 128,000 deaths, 10% of them in the UK. The UK figure of 12868 does not include deaths in care homes and the wider community outside hospitals.

Ratio of population of the UK to the population of South Korea = 1.3
Ratio of Coronavirus deaths in these two countries = 57

2m.jpg
 
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KitsuneAndy said:
"Matt Hancock's" Care Badge was actually launched last year.

http://www.careengland.org.uk/news/launch-care-badge
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That’s great, of course face masks & ventilators would have been even better. I notice Hancock seems to be echoing Trump with “invisible enemy” and “silent killer” lately, or have I only just noticed it?
And I see he has appointed a lobbyist to be in charge of procurement of testing:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ex-lobbyist-who-backed-hancock-leadership-bid
At least the test will be well “spun”.
 
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Rapscallion said:
Jesus wept, can the nepotism of the tories be any clearer. Tory party donor gets a Lordship and a job from the Tories, to which he is totally unsuited.
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It’s not what you know*, it’s who you know :( !

* Except if you know where “bodies are buried” etc.
 
Rapscallion said:
Jesus wept, can the nepotism of the tories be any clearer. Tory party donor gets a Lordship and a job from the Tories, to which he is totally unsuited.
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The article referenced in the original post states that Hancock is a hereditary peer. The title was originally granted to his great-grandfather in 1922.

Having said that, I fully agree that his appointment is tainted but I'm not surprised. I have very low expectations of parliament and the dross that inhabit its houses today.
 
I think Soubry is on the money here

View: https://BANNED/Anna_Soubry/status/1250762299448664064


Boris won't appear until it's time to announce the curve is on a downtrend.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I think Soubry is on the money here

View: https://BANNED/Anna_Soubry/status/1250762299448664064


Boris won't appear until it's time to announce the curve is on a downtrend.
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I am in no doubt that despite all the f**k ups they are making, he will come out of this as a hero (perceived that is) regardless of how long we are in lockdown for, how many lives are lost or what chaos it causes to people.
 
cambsno said:
I am in no doubt that despite all the f**k ups they are making, he will come out of this as a hero (perceived that is) regardless of how long we are in lockdown for, how many lives are lost or what chaos it causes to people.
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Yep, they'll applaud his return like performing seals
 
Uncle Fester said:
Thank you, that’s a very insightful post.

I have zero idea of how advisory groups function and how they present their advice to government. I’m guessing that they do not give very narrow and specific advice, but rather present a range of options, outcomes and probabilities.

We have some inkling that the members of SAGE were far from unanimous in their opinions as to the correct course of action. Therefore, I would presume, that the advice presented to government would have reflected the range of opinion within SAGE.

I would presume yet again, that when the government say that they are guided by scientific advice they are in fact making their decisions not based on a solitary recommendation, but a range of options. Ultimately it is the politicians who make the decision where the balance of risk between virus spread and economic harm lays i.e when to introduce lockdown and containment measures, and not the scientific advisors.

All presumption and speculation on my part.
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Indeed and I imagine, they would be given several models to draw their own conclusions from.

My initial thoughts as this was all unfolding was that it seemed to me, considering the WHO advice and SK's response, was that our Govt was choosing to pay a higher human price than it was economic price. And keeping the economy running for longer to protect the money, at the expense of protecting the people.
 
Boris may not return until the restrictions are easing, but what Anna Soubry wrote is rubbish.
They won't delay lifting the restrictions until he's fit.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Boris may not return until the restrictions are easing, but what Anna Soubry wrote is rubbish.
They won't delay lifting the restrictions until he's fit.
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We'll see. I reckon his next live appearance will be to announce a lifting, or easement, of the restrictions.
 
I wonder how many of those badges could be fitted on HanCOCK's forehead and how long it would take someone to remove them once they were hammered in...
 
KitsuneAndy said:
We'll see. I reckon his next live appearance will be to announce a lifting, or easement, of the restrictions.
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I think he'll be back before June. There might be some lifting of restrictions but I fear the lockdown as far as socialising, eating out etc. is a way off yet.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Yes, that could be a likely possibility.
But what she said is rubbish.
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But that’s what she said <scratches head> , maybe not the same words but same substance. Of course he may not be fit to work for a very long time, lots of people seem to have later complications and he may have underlying health issues he/we didn’t know about.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Yes, that could be a likely possibility.
But what she said is rubbish.
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So you agree it could be a possibility that his first TV appearance may well be him announcing an easement but you disagree with Soubry who said his first TV appearance will be him announcing an easement of restrictions?
 
sphexx said:
But that’s what she said <scratches head> , maybe not the same words but same substance. Of course he may not be fit to work for a very long time, lots of people seem to have later complications and he may have underlying health issues he/we didn’t know about.
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I think he's saying *if* it happens, it'll just be an incredible coincidence that on the day Boris feels well enough to come to work, it just so happens we can start easing the lockdown, and not any other reason.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
It seems to me that the best thing us civilians can do is follow the rules and be especially careful to avoid accidents. The last thing we should do is increase the load on the NHS and other emergency services.
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My wife has just told me that the neighbour of a friend of hers, a young man who was recently divorced, thought fit to cheer himself up by having half a dozen of his mates round, arriving in cars, for a party with the accompanying loud music. The police were called and closed it down. I recalled your post.
 
JohnC6 said:
My wife has just told me that the neighbour of a friend of hers, a young man who was recently divorced, thought fit to cheer himself up by having half a dozen of his mates round, arriving in cars, for a party with the accompanying loud music. The police were called and closed it down. I recalled your post.
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Whilst it is difficult to recall with absolute accuracy my past attitudes, I have a niggling feeling that if I was eighteen years old and something like this happened, I would very possibly have met up with friends. Young men are reckless and I used to be one...
 
Rapscallion said:
Young men are reckless and I used to be one...
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I was married at 19. My wife is quite a lot older than me. After 49 years of marriage she's decided I'm worth keeping. She has, however, mentioned that she often thought I should have been kept in a barrel for the first 10 years of our marriage.

:tumbleweed:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I was married at 19. My wife is quite a lot older than me. After 49 years of marriage she's decided I'm worth keeping. She has, however, mentioned that she often thought I should have been kept in a barrel for the first 10 years of our marriage.

:tumbleweed:
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Not a butt of Malmsey one hopes :).
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So you agree it could be a possibility that his first TV appearance may well be him announcing an easement but you disagree with Soubry who said his first TV appearance will be him announcing an easement of restrictions?
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This is what the tweet said.....

They are waiting for #BorisJohnson to be fit enough to announce the easing of the lockdown.

That's not the same as Boris Johnson won't appear until the restrictions are eased.
 
'I am a swab tester in the UK – but we have barely any swabs to test'

'While Germany and South Korea have tested in huge numbers, the response here is hampered by lack of political will'

'When health secretary Matt Hancock visited our Milton Keynes laboratory last Thursday, he avowed that our jobs were crucial, and thanked us for our service. Our workplace, where we test patient samples for the virus, has been called the “biggest diagnostic lab network in British history”, with capacity to process more than 5,000 swabs, eventually projected to reach 30,000 swabs per day. And yet at our testing centre on Tuesday this week, we processed just over 1,000 samples. The day before, the total was 1,300, and three days ago 1,800. Our shifts were meant to be excruciating 12-hour marathons. In reality, they are rather more like laid-back morning jogs. Dozens of academics and laboratory personnel from all over the UK languish in a hotel with nothing to do. Millions of pounds of equipment borrowed from universities and companies rests silently in the evening hours, when the noise of our collective toil should be deafening. The problem does not lie in the laboratories, or the personnel. The UK has an army of skilled researchers at its disposal. More than 1,200 scientists had volunteered their expertise in the fight against coronavirus in Cambridge alone by early April. Dozens signed up to help in Milton Keynes. The equipment and reagents are all available, now that Thermo Fisher Scientific has confirmed it will supply the UK with all the testing kits it needs. And “scale up” has been the mantra at Milton Keynes since I arrived last Monday. We were promised 5,000 samples “to begin with”. We never saw those numbers. They told us we should prepare for a 24-hour operation, but we are done in four or five.
...
We are all being let down by a government that may have decided testing is, after all, not that important, despite the successful examples set by South Korea and Germany. On 12 April, the United States performed 140,000 tests. Italy more than 48,000. Turkey 35,000. Germany is averaging 50,000 a day. In the UK, total tests numbered just short of 16,000 on Tuesday. Just in our lab, we could have easily done 8,000. We are ready; why aren’t we being sent more swabs?'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/16/swab-tester-uk-germany-south-korea
 
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