The ST4 immigration/benefits/political ramblings thread.

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archangel said:
Here's my take on immigration......it's a feckin joke.....we need a point system which will ensure the correct skilled migrants can come and make out country better not worse....no criminals, rapists or paedophiles.....we would have a policy like Australia where asylum seekers are housed safely until processed and then repatriated back to their own country after the threat has gone, like I said yesterday, the isle of sheppy....but we also need to sort out our other problems like the lazy s***s on long term benefit....maybe we could send them to the same island.......
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Couldn't agree more mate. Be prepared to be called a racist, bigot etc for your troubles.
 
ST4 said:
Stay out of this thread if you cannot resist resorting to name calling.
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Sorry Steve, i thought you were against no-go areas?
And since when have you been so sensitive to criticism?
norters said:
They haven't 'taken' anything. They have been elected by the population in a legal and democratic way.
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Indeed, and talking of local customs, democracy is quite a Greek one!
 
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norters said:
They haven't 'taken' anything. They have been elected by the population in a legal and democratic way.
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[ ] Please tick here if you want to pay our debt.

[ ] Please tick here if you want to tell the EU where to go.
 
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norters said:
They haven't 'taken' anything. They have been elected by the population in a legal and democratic way.
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Yes they have, but through the vote of the people a left wing government is in place. My views on Greece is the debt is unrepayable, probably shouldn't have been loaned in the first place, and really the only viable option for them is default.

With default however should come expulsion from the Euro and EU (no bad thing as Greece is blatantly fiscally incompatible with the other EU states)
 
gramps said:
[ ] Please tick here if you want to pay our debt.

[ ] Please tick here if you want to tell the EU where to go.
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[ ] Please tick here if you want to pay our debt in such away as doesn't mean we have such massive unemployment and often do without esentisial services


but the extremes sound more exciting
 
ST4 said:
Whilst I agree, particularly with the section in bold it should be remember that if it is transmitted, the symptoms can be dire, including death.
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You mean like measles? In underdeveloped nations the death rate from measles runs around 30%, in a developed country like the US it's below 0.5% (and those figures aren't too far out of line with current death rates of ebola). It was totally eradicated from the Americas over a decade ago. But then people stopped taking precautions.......

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/NR15-008.aspx
 
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JonathanRyan said:
You mean like measles? In underdeveloped nations the death rate from measles runs around 30%, in a developed country like the US it's below 0.5% (and those figures aren't too far out of line with current death rates of ebola). It was totally eradicated from the Americas over a decade ago. But then people stopped taking precautions.......

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/NR15-008.aspx
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Exactly, if history has taught us nothing you can never be too safe. Quaranteens are a fair, if costly solution to a potentially nasty issue.
 
ST4 said:
Couldn't agree more mate. Be prepared to be called a racist, bigot etc for your troubles.
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You can only be called a racist/bigot if you hate or dislike others outside your own cultural/ethnic group.....which I will highlight for those proposing or preparing to call me a racist or bigot....

I embrace cultural diversity if and when it benefits our society.....my friends are a mixture of Australians, Italians, Jamaican, Polish, Romanian and Iraqi......as well as Scottish, Welsh and English ......the one thing we have all in common is that we are hard working, tax paying and law abiding citizens......

Me! A racist/bigot.....I don't think so
 
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boyfalldown said:
[ ] Please tick here if you want to pay our debt in such away as doesn't mean we have such massive unemployment and often do without esentisial services


but the extremes sound more exciting
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How can they do that, we've given them olive branch after olive branch. Their economy is buggered, they've got used to public spending/services way beyond the fiscal capability of their countries tax payers to provide.

Don't borrow what you cannot afford to pay back or better still, don't spend what you don't have. They are more than guilty of both.
 
archangel said:
You can only be called a racist/bigot if you hate or dislike others outside your own cultural/ethnic group.....which I will highlight for those proposing or preparing to call me a racist or bigot....

I embrace cultural diversity if and when it benefits our society.....my friends are a mixture of Australians, Italians, Jamaican, Polish, Romanian and Iraqi......as well as Scottish, Welsh and English ......the one thing we have all in common is that we are hard working, tax paying and law abiding citizens......

Me! A racist/bigot.....I don't think so
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Me too, but it hasn't stopped others ;)
 
norters said:
They haven't 'taken' anything. They have been elected by the population in a legal and democratic way.
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By what ever means. The result is they have taken power there.
 
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ST4 said:
How can they do that, we've given them olive branch after olive branch. Their economy is buggered, they've got used to public spending/services way beyond the fiscal capability of their countries tax payers to provide.

Don't borrow what you cannot afford to pay back or better still, don't spend what you don't have. They are more than guilty of both.
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even the IMF admitted it got things wrong on the Greek bailout. Lik elending them money in the first palce, or the unpredicted 25% unemployment
 
boyfalldown said:
[ ] Please tick here if you want to pay our debt in such away as doesn't mean we have such massive unemployment and often do without esentisial services


but the extremes sound more exciting
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I really can't think of anything "exciting" about the situation in Greece but I think it's valid to discuss how the financial situation got the way it has :)
 
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To be perfectly honest I couldn't give a monkey's ring what's happening in Greece. I don't really understand it (must be to do with being white and thick), it's all Greek to me!!
 
boyfalldown said:
even the IMF admitted it got things wrong on the Greek bailout. Lik elending them money in the first palce, or the unpredicted 25% unemployment
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IMHO they never should have been leant that money, in the same way you don't lend money to a person who's got a really crappy credit rating and overheads beyond their means.

They should be wholly discharged from their debt, and allowed to start again and run a country within the means of what their tax paying population can support, not what they think they should have because Germany/France have it.

They need a currency more suited to their needs, and that isn't the EURO and because of the default, they shouldn't be in the EU/Euro never mind NATO.
 
gramps said:
I really can't think of anything "exciting" about the situation in Greece but I think it's valid to discuss how the financial situation got the way it has :)
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I agree it is. But the way to do that is to not post two extremes.
 
ST4 said:
IMHO they never should have been leant that money, in the same way you don't lend money to a person who's got a really crappy credit rating and overheads beyond their means.
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Like a bank you mean? ;)

I agree though...there should have been a proper due diligence done before they were even allowed into the Euro. As I understand it that was somewhat fudged. I don't see why that wouldaffect their NATO membership
 
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BRASH said:
To be perfectly honest I couldn't give a monkey's ring what's happening in Greece. I don't really understand it (must be to do with being white and thick), it's all Greek to me!!
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IMHO you should though, given the UK exposure to the debt situation isn't clear, but there will be some. However, its the outcome of how the EU (the creditors) are being treated. They've told us they cannot repay, its clear, yet the actions seem to be pretty limp wristed and it's this contemptuous spinelessness that bothers me. What if Spain etc default, what ramifications for not paying do we impose?

Its a serious issue. Non payment happens, but it has to have consquences. I'm not seeing much of the later being discussed. It's also a clear indication the Eurozone and large unity of very different fiscal states isn't wise.

Had it been kept to UK, Germany, France, even Italy, the eurozone (as awful an idea as it is) would have worked better.
 
boyfalldown said:
I agree it is. But the way to do that is to not post two extremes.
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Are they extremes?
Or is there a similar popular attitude toward the EU loan as is reported to have been the popular attitude toward paying taxes?
 
boyfalldown said:
Like a bank you mean? ;)

I agree though...there should have been a proper due diligence done before they were even allowed into the Euro. As I understand it that was somewhat fudged. I don't see why that wouldaffect their NATO membership
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NATO is for powerful wealthy countries, not bankrupt ones. IMHO. Default, like a personal bankruptcy needs to have ramifications to discourage default being seen as the easy option. I know you are referring to the subprime crisis, and I cannot argue with the logic.

Here's this for an idea, EU voters should get to choose whether Greece stays in or out? Or we get to buy Greece and make it our territory in return for non payment of debt owned. Like taking assets off someone who's defaulted on debt?
 
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gramps said:
Are they extremes?
Or is there a similar popular attitude toward the EU loan as is reported to have been the popular attitude toward paying taxes?
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I think so - Greece has been turned into a bit of a wreck since the bail out. Anyone looking for a popular vote needs to address only that
 
ST4 said:
IMHO you should though, given the UK exposure to the debt situation isn't clear, but there will be some. However, its the outcome of how the EU (the creditors) are being treated. They've told us they cannot repay, its clear, yet the actions seem to be pretty limp wristed and it's this contemptuous spinelessness that bothers me. What if Spain etc default, what ramifications for not paying do we impose?

Its a serious issue. Non payment happens, but it has to have consquences. I'm not seeing much of the later being discussed. It's also a clear indication the Eurozone and large unity of very different fiscal states isn't wise.

Had it been kept to UK, Germany, France, even Italy, the eurozone (as awful an idea as it is) would have worked better.
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I agree the Eurozone is a complete clusterf***!!
 
ST4 said:
NATO is for powerful wealthy countries, not bankrupt ones. IMHO. Default, like a personal bankruptcy needs to have ramifications to discourage default being seen as the easy option. I know you are referring to the subprime crisis, and I cannot argue with the logic.

Here's this for an idea, EU voters should get to choose whether Greece stays in or out? Or we get to buy Greece and make it our territory in return for non payment of debt owned. Like taking assets off someone who's defaulted on debt?
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I don't think buying the country would work, on any level. taking over countries that way just leads to independence votes. It wouldnt work. I do think it would be better for the EU and Greec if they defaulted and left. I think they'd recover a million times quicker then struggling like they are.

I still don't see what NATO has to do with this though
 
ST4 said:
NATO is for powerful wealthy countries, not bankrupt ones. IMHO. Default, like a personal bankruptcy needs to have ramifications to discourage default being seen as the easy option. I know you are referring to the subprime crisis, and I cannot argue with the logic.

Here's this for an idea, EU voters should get to choose whether Greece stays in or out? Or we get to buy Greece and make it our territory in return for non payment of debt owned. Like taking assets off someone who's defaulted on debt?
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You are showing a distance lack of historical knowledge. The sole reason for NATO's creation in 1949 was because the USA feared that the bankrupt European countries were fertile grounds for Soviet expansion. But why let facts get in the way of rhetoric?

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization, NATO, founded in 1949, depended on America’s military power to provide a shield against Stalin for the shattered European democracies.
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boyfalldown said:
I don't think buying the country would work, on any level. taking over countries that way just leads to independence votes. It wouldnt work. I do think it would be better for the EU and Greec if they defaulted and left. I think they'd recover a million times quicker then struggling like they are.
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Probably you are right, re buying the county. I fully agree with the "I do think it would be better for the EU and Greece if they defaulted and left. I think they'd recover a million times quicker then struggling like they are"

boyfalldown said:
I still don't see what NATO has to do with this though
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A bankrupt, small poor, country with a small population shouldn't, in my view, have a voice on a world forum.

Rapscallion said:
You are showing a distance lack of historical knowledge. The sole reason for NATO's creation in 1949 was because the USA feared that the bankrupt European countries were fertile grounds for Soviet expansion. But why let facts get in the way of rhetoric?
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Thank you for the entlitlenemt, I didn't know. However, NATO has evolved somewhat. I concede the point also there are many poor countries on the list

http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/

However, none have failed quite so spectacularly as Greece, perhaps I am wrong as it could make Greece a breeding ground for Putin if we did kick them out. 50:50 now, but can they meet any NATO obligations and should a small country thats bankrupt have a platform on something like this

http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/

Can they contribute to such a thing.

No, I think Greece needs to start over.
 
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ST4 said:
IMHO what should happen is if a boat of these illegals are found, they are not rescued to deter future lots from trying the same.
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You are in the realms of inhumanity there. That's not what this country or its people are about.
 
ST4 said:
Probably you are right, re buying the county. I fully agree with the "I do think it would be better for the EU and Greece if they defaulted and left. I think they'd recover a million times quicker then struggling like they are"
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blimey. You OK?

ST4 said:
A bankrupt, small poor, country with a small population shouldn't, in my view, have a voice on a world forum.
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I'd agree if it was a financial forum. But its a defence organisation. And Greece is right on the edge of Europe (physically as well as moneywise)
 
boyfalldown said:
I'd agree if it was a financial forum. But its a defence organisation. And Greece is right on the edge of Europe (physically as well as moneywise)
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Maybe, and it is a worry spot for having Russia so near, I am revising my views on their Nato membership. It's a shame, IMHO the Greeks kept the Turks at bay at looking at EU membership. A plus, but one we can live without as we can say no to them without the Greeks. My worry is NATO has missions, etc, and this is a drain a country like Greece would well do without.

Such a serious issue of EU membership really should be put to the population of the electorate of the other EU member states to make the decision to expel or not.

The real lesson of this story, is that these superstates with countries of very different wealth, political views do not work. The ideas beginning to fail. But expulsion from the EU and bankruptcy, no.
 
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ST4 said:
And letting in people who break in without deterrent, punishment is ok?

Tough decisions have to be made sometimes. It comes under defence of the realm.
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I wonder @ST4 if you've ever really thought seriously about this sort of thing. It strike me as you maybe thing its all a bit of a jape. With the hardline opinions you have do you think you'd have sat there too? Afterall it seems to be where your opinions are going

Fair warning. Not the nicest of photos. Probably wouldn't look if you're easily upset. http://agora-dialogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-picture-that-shames-italy-1a.jpg
 
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ST4 said:
And letting in people who break in without deterrent, punishment is ok?

Tough decisions have to be made sometimes. It comes under defence of the realm.
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What realm would be worth a damn if you sat idly by and watched men, women and children drown?
 
Steve Smith said:
They haven't taken it, they have been given it.


Steve.
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They have not been given it they have WON it by due legal procees during vote against other parties.
Yeh, so when I watch elections in Britain, on the TV when the counts are being announced, every time I hear the pundits saying Labour has taken Hackney North or whatever that's all wrong too. Semantics and pointless argument.:rolleyes: I've never once heard anyone say they've been given that seat.
 
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Laudrup said:
What realm would be worth a damn if you sat idly by and watched men, women and children drown?
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Our one, IMHO. We are not a dumping ground for the worlds problems. More over, there is a legal process to enter the UK either as a migrant or asylum seeker. Circumventing those is illegal. People who will stop at nothing to get here and do anything to be here aren't good people, and we should stop at nothing to prevent people breaching our borders in whatever manner the see fit. There is a legal way of doing things, and an illegal way.

So to rephrase as your question should be What realm would be worth a damn if you sat idly by and watched morally reprehensible criminals drown.
 
boyfalldown said:
I wonder @ST4 if you've ever really thought seriously about this sort of thing. It strike me as you maybe thing its all a bit of a jape. With the hardline opinions you have do you think you'd have sat there too? Afterall it seems to be where your opinions are going

Fair warning. Not the nicest of photos. Probably wouldn't look if you're easily upset. http://agora-dialogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-picture-that-shames-italy-1a.jpg
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There's nothing wrong with what I see there.
 
ST4 said:
There's nothing wrong with what I see there.
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Funnily enough I have no problem imagining you stepping over the bodies of a couple of dead immigrant kids to get where you want to go.
 
ST4 said:
We are all such delicate little flowers, my main issue with the image was the background was OOF :D

Things happen. Protecting our borders is important.
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Says it all really.
 
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