The ST4 immigration/benefits/political ramblings thread.

[SFTPhotography]

Immigration: As I said, not sure the onus should be on a single state, we need to have a joint force (like we have for straight cucumbers?).
Immigrants on benefit: The only benefit they should get is NHS treatment for contagious disease but will be chargeable back to the original state.
Ebola: the trouble with genetically engineering viruses is we don't fully understand the entire code only the top level.
Immigration & Ebola: My friend came in from America and Heathrow was very busy. They stopped the Ebola screening to let people through quicker.

http://litreactor.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/header/images/column/headers/ill-eagles.jpg

They stopped Ebola screening to let people through quicker. LOL.

We should, at great cost rather than giving aid money away, use the money to quarantine people coming in from Ebola hot spots.

Agree re charging the nation state for the healthcare. What if the nation state is Greece and cannot afford to pay.

Perhaps that's the issue with the EU, is that many countries in it. (Not all, France, Denmark, Belgium, holland and Germany) are fiscally not too different to us and they could afford this and them us for out citizens but with the mess it's become the EU isbt the answer for Britain.

It's let in too much dross to make it a happy fiscal union

 

[Peter69]

Intentionally breaking the limit at breakneck speeds and killing someone isn't accidental.

Although I like the odd blast at warp factor 10 I have to accept that if I killed someone I should face the full wrath of the law. I consider it to be manslaughter.
Anyone causing death by dangerous should be given the same current sentence as if they had been stabbed (manslaughter style rather then murder) and banned from driving forever.
Anyone causing death without dangerous driving should be banned and made to retake their tests.
Inappropriate speed kills.
Bad driving kills.

 

[Byker28i]

My neighbour, who is German, works for border patrol in cologne airport in Germany.....we talk regular about the failure of open borders and his suggestions are basically to operate like the U.S., Canada and Australia among others........basically it is a point system to immigrate so there is a dedicated team to police immigration, for holiday makers they need to get a visa, therefore those who try to enter the country with the idea of staying is drastically cut as you can't get a visa if you have a criminal record etc......as for queues.....these will only exist for those entering the uk on visas not for those who are residents as they will have British passports......

As for co operation between countries, if we all adopt new border controls then it is in the interest to share information......and for countries who don't sign up.....we then need to implement a process where the applicant/tourist has to prove their validity to enter the country......this may mean having to pay a large "deposit" therefore ruling out those who are in poverty and just trying to make their way to us for benefits.......the large deposit can then be returned upon the applicant leaving through passport control at their nominated point of leave.......


It might need a few tweaks but at least it may deter the thousands in Calais and the many other thousands thinking about it.......

You need a visa to visit the uk if you're outside the uk.
What criminal records do you include?
We already reject serious criminal access to the uk, based on the records available, but we need to work on the systems to provide a detailed feedback. I'm not sure many have that but that's the idea behind the new passports? Basically you need a way to quickly check the identity of the person and their criminal record.
How about those with uk passports who have a criminal conviction abroad?

I agree with some of what you say, but the systems and linking it worldwide with a rapid response for point of entries into the uk, would be difficult and expensive. A totally effective system such as you suggest isn't totally practical currently?

As for those in Calais, most are trying to hide on lorries, not enter vis customs.

 

[Byker28i]

and just to note its that kind of post which gets a poster refered to as a racist bigot ... theres nothing wrong with national pride, but wanting people to die horribly because their skin is a different colour to yours/that they are from a different culture is both racist/biggoted/ and somewhere to the right of hitler.

He won't understand though, just post about racist comments or suggesting it's being claimed everywhere for no reason.

 

[Peter69]

Agree re charging the nation state for the healthcare. What if the nation state is Greece and cannot afford to pay.

ever been to the states and tried to get free health care?
I've only experienced it is Switzerland - they waited for a credit card before they even tried to stop the bleeding!!

Perhaps instead of an airport tax we should charge an enforced NHS insurance or make the couriers responsible. Best way to get companies to take action is to prood their profits.

Not sure if we could when EU signs TTIP - the only reason to vote UKIP

 

[big soft moose]

Will you please show me where I said I wanted people to die horribly because their skin is a different colour and/or they are from a different culture.

.

three or four post up where you say you want to torpedo the ships of illegal imigrants and leave them to drown ... i'm presuming you don't think illegal imigrants are from the same culture as you.

The whole shoot them in the face / torpedo them etc thing was relativelyamusing when I thought you were joking , but actually it appears you are serious .. bthat kind of blantant predjudice has no place in british culture , its not even ukip/BNP , its more like Nazism

 

[SFTPhotography]

Although I like the odd blast at warp factor 10 I have to accept that if I killed someone I should face the full wrath of the law. I consider it to be manslaughter.
Anyone causing death by dangerous should be given the same current sentence as if they had been stabbed (manslaughter style rather then murder) and banned from driving forever.
Anyone causing death without dangerous driving should be banned and made to retake their tests.
Inappropriate speed kills.
Bad driving kills.

Stabbing someone is deliberate act of aggression.

The equivalent act in a car is mounting the pavement to try run someone over.

Losing control - s*** happens. I know of someone on a forum who rolled their 4x4 over, or ran into the back of a car. Had someone died in that rolly prolly should they get jail time - no. They wouldn't have meant it, even if their driving was poor (how do you drive into the back of a parked car FFS). The action is poor driving either through speeding, being drunk at the wheel, undue care etc. Doesbt matter what the outcome is, it's how that outcome occurs.

To me attempted murder is murder - the intent is there. The punishment should be the same.

If I drive home drunk and get caught 6x over the limit and cause no accident I've broken the law.

If I drive home 6x over the limit and mow down a child, I've still done the sane thing or set out to do the Dane thing. Drive whilst drunk. Outcomes different but that's through circumstances not choice on my part

 

[Peter69]

its not even ukip/BNP , its more like Nazism

but you know they are secretly thinking it!!

 

[big soft moose]

if you want to just attack Steve, or anyone else, for posting in the first place your posts will be removed.
.

 

[big soft moose]

but you know they are secretly thinking it!!

lol - this true , all though to be fair to farrage and co they may be racist halfwits but i'm fairly sure even they would draw the line at genocide

 

[SFTPhotography]

three or four post up where you say you want to torpedo the ships of illegal imigrants and leave them to drown ... i'm presuming you don't think illegal imigrants are from the same culture as you.

The whole shoot them in the face / torpedo them etc thing was relativelyamusing when I thought you were joking , but actually it appears you are serious .. bthat kind of blantant predjudice has no place in british culture , its not even ukip/BNP , its more like Nazism

Their culture is of no importance or relevance, how they choose to enter the country is everything. Seeking asylum fine, trying to immigrate, fine if you meet the criteria for either more than welcome. Try to break the rules and sneak in, then they are an intruder.

If you rung my door bell and said " Steve some louts chasing me, can I come in and call the police"I'd welcome you in. If you rung my door and said hi, I'm moose from the forum I'd let you in.

If I caught you trying to open my windows and break in, I'd go to the floor above and pour boiling water on to you, or if you got in and found you in my house uninvited I might clobber you over the head with something or stab you.

That's what we have here.?

 

[Peter69]

@ST4 in you example, that would be a ban and retest.
Driving at speed inappropriately is manslaughter i.e you don't intend to kill. Dangerous driving normally does carry jail time now, but the police need to prve intent so they go for carless driving in most cases +10pts.

 

[SFTPhotography]

My intention was to drive as fast as the car would go , not to kill or injure anyone. Indeed the opposite.

Whilst I won't repeat the exercise (unless on a track , airfield) you must understand no one that does this sets out to injure, kill or hurt anyone.

 

[norters]

if you want to just attack Steve, or anyone else, for posting in the first place your posts will be removed.
.

 

[SFTPhotography]

@ST4 in you example, that would be a ban and retest.
Driving at speed inappropriately is manslaughter i.e you don't intend to kill. Dangerous driving normally does carry jail time now, but the police need to prve intent so they go for carless driving in most cases +10pts.

Yes. No motoring offence unless it's a second offence and the lesson should have been learned should carry jail time, no matter what the outcome.

Depends, I know a few cases of dangerous driving, no jail. It depends on the circumstances of the offence itself and aggravating or mitigating factors in each case.

 

[SFTPhotography]

No. You wouldn't. You would hide in the wardrobe.

You know what Id do how?

 

[big soft moose]

if you want to just attack Steve, or anyone else, for posting in the first place your posts will be removed.
.

 

[norters]

if you want to just attack Steve, or anyone else, for posting in the first place your posts will be removed.
.

 

[Byker28i]

ever been to the states and tried to get free health care?
I've only experienced it is Switzerland - they waited for a credit card before they even tried to stop the bleeding!!

Perhaps instead of an airport tax we should charge an enforced NHS insurance or make the couriers responsible. Best way to get companies to take action is to prood their profits.

Not sure if we could when EU signs TTIP - the only reason to vote UKIP

Why? Didn't you have your European insurance Heath card to guarantee you treatment? (Or old e111). Showed the card, had no problem.

 

[Dave *]

Will you please show me where I said I wanted people to die horribly because their skin is a different colour and/or they are from a different culture.

How about your comments to the photo showing dead asylum sneakers covered up in front of other beach users.
http://agora-dialogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-picture-that-shames-italy-1a.jpg

This was your take on the dead bodies on the beach:

There's nothing wrong with what I see there.

We are all such delicate little flowers, my main issue with the image was the background was OOF
Things happen. Protecting our borders is important.

I won't add what I was going to say here...

 

[SFTPhotography]

How about your comments to the photo showing dead asylum sneakers covered up in front of other beach users.
http://agora-dialogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-picture-that-shames-italy-1a.jpg

This was your take on the dead bodies on the beach:





I won't add what I was going to say here...

People drown at sea, it happens. You've never seen a dead body before.

They presumably drowned trying to get there illegally breaking the law. A bit like the burglar that gets killed by the property owner or the teenager that waves a gun around then ignores police requests to stand down and gets shot, how am i meant to get upset about that?

 

[Dave *]

People drown at sea, it happens. You've never seen a dead body before.

They presumably drowned trying to get here illegally breaking the law. A bit like the burglar that gets killed by the property owner or the teenager that waves a gun around then ignores police requests to stand down and gets shot, how am i meant to get upset about that?

Yes, I have seen dead bodies before, but that's immaterial, as is your post.

I'm not interested in your post trying to rationalise your idiotic views, I only posted a reply to show where you posted your thoughts on people dying horribly just because their skin colour or culture were different.

 

[Byker28i]

One day our descendants will find it incredible that we paid so much attention to things like the amount of melanin in our skin or the shape of our eyes or gender instead of the unique qualities of each of us as unique human beings -Franklin Thomas.

Racism is mans greatest threat to man. The maximum of hatred for the minimum of reason - Herschel.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Yes, I have seen dead bodies before, but that's immaterial, as is your post.

I'm not interested in your post trying to rationalise your idiotic views, I only posted a reply to show where you posted your thoughts on people dying horribly just because their skin colour or culture were different.

Where do I say anything about their skin colour being a factor? Other than in your minds eye

Here is my reply to bigsoftmoose who makes the same accusation

Their culture is of no importance or relevance, how they choose to enter the country is everything. Seeking asylum fine, trying to immigrate, fine if you meet the criteria for either more than welcome. Try to break the rules and sneak in, then they are an intruder.

If you rung my door bell and said " Steve some louts chasing me, can I come in and call the police"I'd welcome you in. If you rung my door and said hi, I'm moose from the forum I'd let you in.

If I caught you trying to open my windows and break in, I'd go to the floor above and pour boiling water on to you, or if you got in and found you in my house uninvited I might clobber you over the head with something or stab you.

That's what we have here.?

 

[SFTPhotography]

ever been to the states and tried to get free health care?
I've only experienced it is Switzerland - they waited for a credit card before they even tried to stop the bleeding!!

Perhaps instead of an airport tax we should charge an enforced NHS insurance or make the couriers responsible. Best way to get companies to take action is to prood their profits.

Not sure if we could when EU signs TTIP - the only reason to vote UKIP

Sorry I missed this.

If you go to the states minus top drawer health insurance you're mad.

Nice idea re the NHS tax mind at airports. The E111 scheme covers it and tbh I have no issue with tourists no matter where they are from getting NHS treatment .

Even asylum seekers or migrants. Part of the asylum act is to keep people safe - healthcare is part of that. Migrants that pay tax - they are paying in.

Non tax paying migrants. With a points based system you'd only be letting in ones with money or ones that'll earn good money and pay tax so freeloading migrants are off the menue

 

[Dave *]

Where do I say anything about their skin colour being a factor? Other than in your minds eye

So what colour are the legs sticking out from under the covers?

 

[viv1969]

People drown at sea, it happens. You've never seen a dead body before.

They presumably drowned trying to get there illegally breaking the law. A bit like the burglar that gets killed by the property owner or the teenager that waves a gun around then ignores police requests to stand down and gets shot, how am i meant to get upset about that?

They died paddling in the sea with two other children and were swept away with a wave.
But they were roma children. ..immigrants. so their bodies were pulled out of the water and left on the beach.

 

[SFTPhotography]

So what colour are the legs sticking out from under the covers?

It would not matter what they were. It's immaterial. Maybe to you it does bit not to me

I'll quote again

Their culture is of no importance or relevance, how they choose to enter the country is everything. Seeking asylum fine, trying to immigrate, fine if you meet the criteria for either more than welcome. Try to break the rules and sneak in, then they are an intruder.

If you rung my door bell and said " Steve some louts chasing me, can I come in and call the police"I'd welcome you in. If you rung my door and said hi, I'm moose from the forum I'd let you in.

If I caught you trying to open my windows and break in, I'd go to the floor above and pour boiling water on to you, or if you got in and found you in my house uninvited I might clobber you over the head with something or stab you.

That's what we have here.?

 

[SFTPhotography]

They died paddling in the sea with two other children and were swept away with a wave.
But they were roma children. ..immigrants. so their bodies were pulled out of the water and left on the beach.

It's just a picture. I was led to believe they drowned illegally entering .

With no next of kin to claim the bodies so what? They'd be uplifted to go to the morgue. Possibly. How can you tell this from a crappy OOF image. They're dead, they drowned. Very sadly it happens.

Does that mean no one should enjoy the beach that day whilst that process is underway.

Skin tone they're a match for Italians so I doubt the Italians are racists.

Indeed they've mixed well all over the world. A great people in my experience.

 

[Dave *]

It's just a picture. I was led to believe they drowned illegally entering .

With no next of kin to claim the bodies so what? They'd be uplifted to go to the morgue. Possibly. How can you tell this from a crappy OOF image. They're dead, they drowned. Very sadly it happens.

Does that mean no one should enjoy the beach that day whilst that process is underway.

Skin tone they're a match for Italians so I doubt the Italians are racists.

Indeed they've mixed well all over the world. A great people in my experience.

Can you ride a unicycle? I think you would be good with your skill at back-pedalling.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Can you ride a unicycle? I think you would be good with your skill at back-pedalling.

Huh? It's an answer to the post. How van you tell dead roma kids from dead Italian kids , they'd look the same?

 

[Byker28i]

People drown at sea, it happens. You've never seen a dead body before.

They presumably drowned trying to get there illegally breaking the law.

See here's the issue. You saw the colour and made your own story up because it suited your argument and views and fitted the situation. You presumed, yet get annoyed when people presume things about you when you constantly post similar radical views.

Context is everything

 

[big soft moose]

Huh? It's an answer to the post. How van you tell dead roma kids from dead Italian kids , they'd look the same?

skin colour or culture he said ..

 

[viv1969]

It's just a picture. I was led to believe they drowned illegally entering .

With no next of kin to claim the bodies so what? They'd be uplifted to go to the morgue. Possibly. How can you tell this from a crappy OOF image. They're dead, they drowned. Very sadly it happens.

Does that mean no one should enjoy the beach that day whilst that process is underway.

Skin tone they're a match for Italians so I doubt the Italians are racists.

Indeed they've mixed well all over the world. A great people in my experience.

There was nothing in the original post to lead you to believe they were illegals.
You went there all by yourself.
As you do.

 

[LCPete]

Stabbing someone is deliberate act of aggression.

The equivalent act in a car is mounting the pavement to try run someone over.

Losing control - s*** happens. I know of someone on a forum who rolled their 4x4 over, or ran into the back of a car. Had someone died in that rolly prolly should they get jail time - no. They wouldn't have meant it, even if their driving was poor (how do you drive into the back of a parked car FFS). The action is poor driving either through speeding, being drunk at the wheel, undue care etc. Doesbt matter what the outcome is, it's how that outcome occurs.

To me attempted murder is murder - the intent is there. The punishment should be the same.

If I drive home drunk and get caught 6x over the limit and cause no accident I've broken the law.

If I drive home 6x over the limit and mow down a child, I've still done the sane thing or set out to do the Dane thing. Drive whilst drunk. Outcomes different but that's through circumstances not choice on my part

Yes but going fast on a quiet road isn't man slaughter still wrong but I've done it myself to be honest
but overtaking on blind bends tailgating or doing say 60 in a 30 limit should be as that's deliberately endangering other people's lives

 

[Peter69]

Why? Didn't you have your European insurance Heath card to guarantee you treatment? (Or old e111). Showed the card, had no problem.

I think you'll find e111 doesn't work in USA or Switzerland.
My health insurance for America is £2500 for 1 month. For the rest of the world including winter sports is £350!!

Even in places like Spain you can get caught out with EHIC. My meds cost +£1000/ month

 

[jakeblu]

I find it ironic that Steve comes from a nation that is blighted by stereotypes, the overweight, fried mars bar eating, smoking, violent, scottish benefit scrounging drunk. I wonder if he ever see's the irony in his posts?

I know Yv said earlier about personal attacks on ST4, but this isn't a personal attack its merely an observation

 

[Dave *]

I think you'll find e111 doesn't work in USA or Switzerland.

Have you told the NHS? They seem to be under the impression it does.

Your European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) allows you to access state-provided healthcare in Switzerland at a reduced cost and will cover your treatment until you return to the UK. It also covers the treatment of pre-existing medical conditions and routine maternity care, provided the reason for your visit is not specifically to give birth. No cost participation is required for maternity benefits.

Non-EEA nationals are not covered in Switzerland unless you are a stateless person or a refugee.

Your EHIC does not cover private treatment, so make sure you are treated by a state-funded healthcare provider. Some healthcare providers offer both services in Switzerland. You should be particularly careful if healthcare arrangements are made by a hotel or travel representative. Any costs incurred for private healthcare are non-refundable.

 

[big soft moose]

I find it ironic that Steve comes from a nation that is blighted by stereotypes, the overweight, fried mars bar eating, smoking, violent, scottish benefit scrounging drunk. I wonder if he ever see's the irony in his posts?

I know Yv said earlier about personal attacks on ST4, but this isn't a personal attack its merely an observation

yeah but he's not scottish - he's an economic migrant from england - no irony there , no sireee

 

[Peter69]

Yes but going fast on a quiet road isn't man slaughter still wrong but I've done it myself to be honest
but overtaking on blind bends tailgating or doing say 60 in a 30 limit should be as that's deliberately endangering other people's lives

Would you be able to stop in your visual range? You should not drive so fast that you can't break to avoid a hazard. If you do the result isnt an accident it is a result of you running out of luck.
As I say, I drive quite fast. So far only 2 accidents both whilst I was stationary.
Fallen of bike so many times I think I'm a cat