The only thing that stops a bad man with a gun is a good man witha gun

Unfortunately, I don't think they will. There are too many guns in the country and two many people who think their right to own them is more important than other people's rights not to be killed by them.

The good guy/bad guy with guns thing is utter nonsense as in a gun to gun confrontation where someone is killed, 50% of the time it will be the good guy. I don't think bullets can differentiate.


Steve.
 
The guns in America is the one thing that really puts me off the place.
 
How else do you stop the evil people from going into schools and shooting young children. I read that the teachers in many schools had asked the authorities to train them in the use of firearms and how to conceal them after the last slaughter of young children.
Don't think that there is an answer to America's gun problem.
 
Innocent people killed by another angry young American.Again!.Yet the American people seemed bogged down with a constitution from the 18the century that they seem unable to change."The right to bear arms" it is the ruination of America.:banghead:
 
Wait!!!

I'm going to need popcorn for this.
 
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wontolla said:
American devil food.
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Yes indeed. Disgusting stuff. But completely necessary for threads such as this.

I'm all set....carry on!
 
Ever since the handgun ban in the UK,
only criminals have them.

(and of course the armed services ;) )
 
Then slaughter will carry on in the US, until someone works out that the NRA are a bunch of idiots.
Did the founding fathers really envisage the results of their 'right to bear arms', which has many meanings given the full text, and not necessarily the one the US Supreme Court went for.
I suspect those founders would very much regret their words had they still been alive.
 
Cobra said:
Ever since the handgun ban in the UK,
only criminals have them.

(and of course the armed services ;) )
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Not strictly true, there are plenty of legitimate firearm owners in the UK. .22 rifles and pistols (and .30) can be legally owned and are just as deadly. For example, you can legally buy a .22 semi auto Colt 1911 derivative if you have the right licence.

The only difference here is, generally speaking only enthusiasts and farmers own them.

And because UK gun law is so strict, and was strict before Dunblane, the country was never flooded with them so very few criminals possess them.

In some ways, we just got lucky.

I'm an avid shooter myself, and own pistols and rifles for target shooting. Over here, the culture is different and that goes a long way.
 
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odd jim said:
And because UK gun law is so strict, and was strict before Dunblane, the country was never flooded with them so very few criminals possess them.
.
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Gonna disagree with that ;)
Of course not every criminal owns one, and of course they never were quite so readily available as in the states.
But I bet there are more illegally owned hand guns out there, than legal ones.

I was excluding rifles hence the hand gun ban comment. ;)
I belive that .22 rim fires ( and .32?) are can be, legally held normally by farmers and vets as dispatch weapons.
I don't think there are any UK hand gun ranges though any more?
I stand to be corrected of course.
 
You can shoot handguns at any uk range :)
 
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odd jim said:
You can shoot handguns at any uk range :)
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Fair do's, I'm well out of it now,
since I was forced to give up my colt .45acp, Tangfolio 9mm and my S&W 686 .357.
I did try practical shotgun for awhile (solid slug)
But it was never the same.

Just a couple of "pest control" rifles and a "normal" 3 shot semi 12 bore.
Oh and a couple of .410's now.
 
In response to Cobra (quoting is making the app crash!) I've got rid of my live fire .22 pistols now as I prefer to shoot 4.5mm / .177 air pistols for target use now. TBH shooting targets at 25m you don't really need much more (and for competitions, it's a 10m range),

In fact I only have one LR gun now, the rest I replaced with .22 air rifles as well as I find keeping up with changing licensing conditions a right PITA. However, I had two Colts I couldn't bear to get rid of so I had them decommissioned and put on my wall :)
 
odd jim said:
However, I had two Colts I couldn't bear to get rid of so I had them decommissioned and put on my wall :)
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TBH I did consider that too.
But at the time the compensation they were paying was very much OTT, from the retail value, so couldn't really refuse ;)

On another point, if you are having issues quoting,
if you do this "@ followed by user name", the person gets a prompt to say they were either quoted or tagged :thumbs:
as below :)
@odd jim
 
KEV145 said:
How else do you stop the evil people from going into schools and shooting young children. I read that the teachers in many schools had asked the authorities to train them in the use of firearms and how to conceal them after the last slaughter of young children.
Don't think that there is an answer to America's gun problem.
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Except the facts do not support the theory
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23467753

http://www.jhsph.edu/research/cente...policy-and-research/publications/IPV_Guns.pdf
There are plenty of acedemic studies showing that if you own a gun you have a considerably increased risk of suffering fatal violence then someone who has no firearms. It's a myth that firearms protect they do not.
 
In this country, handguns are virtually unavailable. There are odd exceptions, such as long barrelled pistols, black powder and maybe some others, but the types that criminals might want to steal and use for crime have pretty much gone.
A few of us do still have handguns, specifically for humane destructions. Mainly these are horse slaughterers and similar, but there are a few others too.

The police seem to think that semi auto pistols are in some way more dangerous for humane destruction than revolvers, so we have revolvers and promise to comply with the condition and never load it with more than 2 rounds, apparently that makes it safer too... Mostly though, because of the hassle of getting the S.5 certificate (in theory issued by the Home Office but in fact by the police) most shooters, including farmers, don't want a pistol and use a rifle for humane destruction, or a shotgun. Most vets don't have them either now, for the same reasons.

Back to topic, I can't see the problems ever going away in the USA. There are very high gun crime rates throughout the USA, always have been. The gun crime rates in those states that have banned guns are actually higher than in those that haven't, so it doesn't seem to have much to do with the availability of legal firearms.

Countries such as Canada and Switzerland, with extremely high levels of gun ownerships, also have extremely low levels of gun crime.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Countries such as Canada and Switzerland, with extremely high levels of gun ownerships, also have extremely low levels of gun crime.
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Um, no.

In an average year here, there is one gun murder for every 200,000 of the population - in the US that figure is several times higher. But there are more domestic homicides and suicides with a firearm in Switzerland than pretty much anywhere else in Europe except Finland...
Prof Killias was a supporter of the 2011 referendum initiative to keep all militia firearms in a central arsenal - because, he says, of the evidence provided by recent statistics.

"Forty-three per cent of homicides are domestic related and 90% of those homicides are carried out with guns," he says...Swiss citizens - for example hunters, or those who shoot as a sport - can get a permit to buy guns and ammunition, unless they have a criminal record, or police deem them unsuitable on psychiatric or security grounds...Prof Killias cannot hide his anger with those in America who use Switzerland to illustrate their argument that more gun ownership would deter or stop violence.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912
 
Bernie174 said:
Then slaughter will carry on in the US, until someone works out that the NRA are a bunch of idiots.
Did the founding fathers really envisage the results of their 'right to bear arms', which has many meanings given the full text, and not necessarily the one the US Supreme Court went for.
I suspect those founders would very much regret their words had they still been alive.
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:agree: “You can have my guns when you take them from my cold, dead hands.” ............... !!
 
The old argument is usually trotted out, that "criminals have firearms, so we need them to defend ourselves".
I've seen no evidence that supports that argument at all. Most criminals have no bottle, and will run a mile simply because of the presence of someone else, irrespective of that other person having a firearm.
In the UK, the majority of gun crime falls into 2 categories. 'Gansta' possession, where they mostly kill each other, I can't shed too many tears over that. Or, it's the armed bank robber type, which is in decline, the ones that haven't been shot by police are worried they might be. Of course the ones that do get a Home Office approved bodily implant tend to die, and therefore can't commit further offences, which may also account for the decline.
Most of the mass shootings in the US, on casual inspection revolve around possession or access to legal firearms. Which begs the question, if you remove those would you save lives? I'd say the answer is an obvious yes.
Would removal of what are legal firearms at the moment cause a massive increase in shootings of unarmed people? I doubt it.
 
Garry Edwards said:
In this country, handguns are virtually unavailable. There are odd exceptions, such as long barrelled pistols, black powder and maybe some others, but the types that criminals might want to steal and use for crime have pretty much gone.
A few of us do still have handguns, specifically for humane destructions. Mainly these are horse slaughterers and similar, but there are a few others too.

The police seem to think that semi auto pistols are in some way more dangerous for humane destruction than revolvers, so we have revolvers and promise to comply with the condition and never load it with more than 2 rounds, apparently that makes it safer too... Mostly though, because of the hassle of getting the S.5 certificate (in theory issued by the Home Office but in fact by the police) most shooters, including farmers, don't want a pistol and use a rifle for humane destruction, or a shotgun. Most vets don't have them either now, for the same reasons.

Back to topic, I can't see the problems ever going away in the USA. There are very high gun crime rates throughout the USA, always have been. The gun crime rates in those states that have banned guns are actually higher than in those that haven't, so it doesn't seem to have much to do with the availability of legal firearms.

Countries such as Canada and Switzerland, with extremely high levels of gun ownerships, also have extremely low levels of gun crime.
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Can you show some source of evidence for this.I am convinced that where there are guns there are more people killed and maimed with them than where there are no guns at all.
 
f_fd2ca89fcc.jpg
 
shapeshifter said:
Can you show some source of evidence for this.I am convinced that where there are guns there are more people killed and maimed with them than where there are no guns at all.
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I agree with what you say. Obviously, the more guns there are available, the more often they will be used against people.

But, what I'm talking about his is legal ownership.The figures in the US clearly show that there are higher levels of gun crime in those states where guns are not available legally than in those where they are. In other words, making it difficult/impossible to get them legally doesn't seem to help.

But I don't think that this is about legal gun ownership (which personally I feel is out of control in the USA). I think that it's about Americans.
 
Knew it would turn to yank slamming eventually :rolleyes:
 
But of course I would reply to that, guns don't kill people, people do.
And the proof, pre-ban I owned 3 handguns,
While I was at work / out of the house, not once did one escape and go do damage,
to anyone or anything.





Steve Smith said:
f_fd2ca89fcc.jpg
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Cobra said:
But of course I would reply to that, guns don't kill people, people do.
And the proof, pre-ban I owned 3 handguns,
While I was at work / out of the house, not once did one escape and go do damage,
to anyone or anything.
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Likewise!
 
Steve Smith said:
Yes. Idiot people with easy access to guns.


Steve.
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But what about the whole of the UK, which has access to equally deadly kitchen knives, hatchets, axes etc etc.

I still maintain it's partly a cultural thing, hense the reliance on the tenth amendment in the states, Americans are brainwashed by that crumbling old document.
 
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Cobra said:
But of course I would reply to that, guns don't kill people, people do.
And the proof, pre-ban I owned 3 handguns,
While I was at work / out of the house, not once did one escape and go do damage,
to anyone or anything.
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A typical NRA statement that is utter nonsense.Proof! LOL Tell that to the Families of the children at Dunblane.Simple no guns no one gets shot.That is a fact.
 
Those that say handguns in the uk are nearly impossible to come by (Garry?) not so;

Check out this link, if you have a sec1 firearms licence, you can order a 10 round .22 semi auto Colt 1911 derivative - made in the UK. I had something very similar. There are plenty of legally owned handguns still in the UK.
http://www.valmontfirearms.co.uk/LBPistols.html
These are VERY deadly in the wrong hands.
 
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shapeshifter said:
A typical NRA statement that is utter nonsense.Proof! LOL Tell that to the Families of the children at Dunblane.Simple no guns no one gets shot.That is a fact.
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I agree with what you say, but you also can't deny Cobra is also right!

Also you have to ask, if guns weren't available, would they simply use another weapon? Look at the recent mass stabbings in China. Agreed, not on the same scale, but...
 
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odd jim said:
Those that say handguns in the uk are nearly impossible to come by (Garry?) not so;

Check out this link, if you have a sec1 firearms licence, you can order a 10 round .22 semi auto Colt 1911 derivative - made in the UK. I had something very similar. There are plenty of legally owned handguns still in the UK.
http://www.valmontfirearms.co.uk/LBPistols.html
These are VERY deadly in the wrong hands.
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What the hell does some sick idiot want to buy stuff like that for.They must have been watching to many Rambo films:nailbiting:.That's a lot of the problem!
 
shapeshifter said:
What the hell does some sick idiot want to buy stuff like that for.They must have been watching to many Rambo films:nailbiting:.That's a lot of the problem!
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For target shooting, which I happen to enjoy immensely.

What's wrong with that? Am I now a "sick idiot"?
 
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