The only thing that stops a bad man with a gun is a good man witha gun

  • Like
Reactions: ST4
odd jim said:
Those that say handguns in the uk are nearly impossible to come by (Garry?) not so;

Check out this link, if you have a sec1 firearms licence, you can order a 10 round .22 semi auto Colt 1911 derivative - made in the UK. I had something very similar. There are plenty of legally owned handguns still in the UK.
http://www.valmontfirearms.co.uk/LBPistols.html
These are VERY deadly in the wrong hands.
Click to expand...
Well yes, but I did in fact say that long barrelled pistols are still available legally in the UK. I don't know the exact rules because LB pistol shooting isn't something that I want to do. And I agree with you that a .22 LR round has the potential to be extremely dangerous, partly because of its low power, its propensity to richochet and tumble and partly because of its very low noise.

But my guess is that most criminals would rather have a .38 revolver with a 2" barrell...

And it's a coincidence that none of Cobra's firearms have ever escaped and taken it into their heads to cause any harm, because none of mine have either.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well yes, but I did in fact say that long barrelled pistols are still available legally in the UK. I don't know the exact rules because LB pistol shooting isn't something that I want to do. And I agree with you that a .22 LR round has the potential to be extremely dangerous, partly because of its low power, its propensity to richochet and tumble and partly because of its very low noise.

But my guess is that most criminals would rather have a .38 revolver with a 2" barrell...

And it's a coincidence that none of Cobra's firearms have ever escaped and taken it into their heads to cause any harm, because none of mine have either.
Click to expand...
Ah my mistake, I couldn't find the post but yes, short barrel stuff isn't readily available due to possible concealment issues etc.

And I agree re .22 rounds, I'd rather be shot by a 9mm or 557 round, at least they'll pass straight through rather than bounce around and turn your insides to mush like a .22.
 
odd jim said:
But what about the whole of the UK, which has access to equally deadly kitchen knives, hatchets, axes etc etc.

I still maintain it's partly a cultural thing, hense the reliance on the tenth amendment in the states, Americans are brainwashed by that crumbling old document.
Click to expand...


I think you're right. Perhaps something to do with prolonging the wild west cowboy image.


Steve.
 
Guns are usually now associated with a lawless and semi developed society, African States, Middle Eastern States, Central America and certain Eastern European Countries. Apart from handguns, the AK47 is a weapon choice. They are places that you would usually not want to visit.

Nor sure what this says about the US and there position in the developed world, but here is another "advert" placed by, presumably, the pro gun society

The Americans will continue these killings for ever, it is part of their culture ….. they have a "shoot to kill" police force and and significant big business making money from weapons manufacture and sales ……… and 10,700 dead americans is, to many, a price worth paying for their "right to shoot each other, ups, sorry I mean't "to bear arms"

I also think that if any US President tried to ban gun ownership and it looked like he would be successful ……. he would be shot

It is a wonderful yet sad country and many of their population do not see the US hypocritical stance in lots of what they do, particularly in their foreign policy decisions.

Just my humble opinion and God Bless America …….. the rendition of which certainly brings tears to the eyes

MATQu.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ST4
View attachment 12442 View attachment 12440
BillN_33 said:
Guns are usually now associated with a lawless and semi developed society, African States, Middle Eastern States, Central America and certain Eastern European Countries. Apart from handguns, the AK47 is a weapon choice. They are places that you would usually not want to visit.

Nor sure what this says about the US and there position in the developed world, but here is another "advert" placed by, presumably, the pro gun society

The Americans will continue these killings for ever, it is part of their culture ….. they have a "shoot to kill" police force and and significant big business making money from weapons manufacture and sales ……… and 10,700 dead americans is, to many, a price worth paying for their "right to shoot each other, ups, sorry I mean't "to bear arms"

I also think that if any US President tried to ban gun ownership and it looked like he would be successful ……. he would be shot

It is a wonderful yet sad country and many of their population do not see the US hypocritical stance in lots of what they do, particularly in their foreign policy decisions.

Just my humble opinion and God Bless America …….. the rendition of which certainly brings tears to the eyes

MATQu.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
I think Michael Moore summed up the situation perfectly:

With due respect to those who are asking me to comment on last night's tragic mass shooting at UCSB in Isla Vista, CA -- I no longer have anything to say about what is now part of normal American life. Everything I have to say about this, I said it 12 years ago: We are a people easily manipulated by fear which causes us to arm ourselves with a quarter BILLION guns in our homes that are often easily accessible to young people, burglars, the mentally ill and anyone who momentarily snaps. We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests." The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol. While other countries have more violent pasts (Germany, Japan), more guns per capita in their homes (Canada [mostly hunting guns]), and the kids in most other countries watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games that our kids play, no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do -- and yet we don't seem to want to ask ourselves this simple question: "Why us? What is it about US?" Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that? Even when 90% of the American public calls for stronger gun laws, Congress refuses -- and then we the people refuse to remove them from office. So the onus is on us, all of us. We won't pass the necessary laws, but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time. When the NRA says, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people," they've got it half-right. Except I would amend it to this: "Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people." Enjoy the rest of your day, and rest assured this will all happen again very soon
Click to expand...


Steve.
 
odd jim said:
And I agree re .22 rounds, I'd rather be shot by a 9mm or 557 round, at least they'll pass straight through rather than bounce around and turn your insides to mush like a .22.
Click to expand...

yeah , because a 9mm or a 557 ( 357 ?) aint gonna hurt you is it ,,,,,where do you get the bit about a .22 turning ones insides to mush ?
 
donut said:
yeah , because a 9mm or a 557 ( 357 ?) aint gonna hurt you is it ,,,,,where do you get the bit about a .22 turning ones insides to mush ?
Click to expand...
Don't be silly, of course they are going to "hurt".

A .22 will enter the skull (for example) but it won't have the power to exit the other side, it'll simply bounce around inside causing havok, shredding the brain and /or organs depending where it hits, where as a more potent round will pass straight through, giving you a better chance if survival (yes, people can survive a through and through head shot!). Same for chest cavities. Anyone who knows anything about firearms knows this, simple physics.
And no, I did actually mean 5.56, standard NATO round but auto correct changed it to 557 for some reason...
 
Last edited:
so its not the bullet size but the velocity of the round you dont want to get hit by? and you really are talking [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] about the .22 .
 
It is very difficult to protect Americans from each other in a culture that has developed from and in which violence is promoted, and it has proved to be difficult to protect the rest of the world from the Americans and their usually violent solutions to what they see as protecting "their" interests.

I spoke to an American friend of mine on the west coast and his initially comment was " I don't read the newspapers much and had not really noticed it other than in passing as it happens everyday"

Killings will continue as there is no will to even try to stop them and the minority vested interest view will always prevail …… democracy is another word they use hypocritically in "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

It's just as American as "apple pie"
 
donut said:
so its not the bullet size but the velocity of the round you dont want to get hit by? and you really are talking [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] about the .22 .
Click to expand...
No, he is absolutely right.

The police in this country seem to think that a .22 rimfire is relatively innocuous, but all experienced shooters know better.

Apart from the fact that .22 rimfires tend not to pass through the body, and that they tumble and bounce around, causing more damage in the process, they also richochet at the drop of a hat, which means that a shot that hits a hard surface (such as metal, a stone or water) is likely to richochet off at an angle and may hit someone. More powerful rounds tend to just disintegrate instead.
 
donut said:
so its not the bullet size but the velocity of the round you dont want to get hit by? and you really are talking [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] about the .22 .
Click to expand...
Sorry donut, you know nothing about firearms, best not comment anymore if you're going to make remarks like that.
 
Last edited:
you said you didnt want to get hit by a .22 ,,,,but a 5.56 is alright ??? and what size is a 5.56 ?? ,223 so a massive three thousanths of an inch bigger ,,,
so you'd rather get hit by a .223 travelling at anything up to 3200fps ( @ muzzle ) than a .22 lr travelling @ anything from 1000 to 1600 fps . im just off to have a shoot with my .44 revolver

personally i wouldnt want to get hit by any of them
 
Last edited:
Garry Edwards said:
. More powerful rounds tend to just disintegrate instead.
Click to expand...

as i believe is the case with the .17 rimfire because of its high velocity ,,,,,and lets face it a more powerful round breaking up when it hits a skull is not going to end well .
 
donut said:
you said you didnt want to get hit by a .22 ,,,,but a 5.56 is alright ??? and what size is a 5.56 ?? ,223 so a massive three thousanths of an inch bigger ,,,
so you'd rather get hit by a .223 travelling at anything up to 3200fps ( @ muzzle ) than a .22 lr travelling @ anything from 1000 to 1600 fps . im just off to have a shoot with my .44 revolver

personally i wouldnt want to get hit by any of them
Click to expand...
I said I'd rather be hit by a 5.56 than a .22, but ideally I'd rather not be shot by anything.

You know the history of the NATO round? Designed with a high chance of maiming and not necessarily killing? The idea behind it was that a certain percentage of a fighting forces *wounded* does more detriment to that force than if the same amount were killed, as they have to care for and carry their wounded.

Perhaps you've seen too many movies with exploding heads?
 
donut said:
as i believe is the case with the .17 rimfire because of its high velocity ,,,,,and lets face it a more powerful round breaking up when it hits a skull is not going to end well .
Click to expand...
No, it wouldn't end well. Being hit in the head by any bullet is something best avoided...
It shouldn't surprise you to hear that I've never shot a human in the head with a .17 rf, so my knowledge is entirely theoretical :) but the .17 is a bit of a special case, it is designed for humane pest control and, with a muzzle velocity of 2550fps @muzzle it has a very flat trajectory. Once it hits, it fragments, causing severe damage, but it doesn't penetrate much.

Most people have no knowledge of firearms, or ballistics, at all. They seem to get their 'knowledge' from watching movies, where the villain always misses and the hero always hits, where the gun goes 'pop' instead of 'bang', where it's easy to hit someone 200 yards away with a handgun without even aiming it, where there is no recoil and where people fly through the air when hit...

I'm no expert myself but I do have a number of both rimfire and centrefire rifles, plus quite a collection of shotguns, I used to fire centrefire and rimfire pistols too, and have shot competitively since I was 16, so I do have a bit of actual experience.

Best not to argue about ballistic unless you actually understand the subject.
 
Come on keep the posts coming! My sneaky fag break and black pudding roll is nearly over:D
 
I used to shoot .177 (4.5mm) air rifle years ago, and then did a bit of field target shooting, but I am all for the sort of gun laws which we have in the UK.
The US is a totally different kettle of fish.
Where else in the World can you go into the local Walmart and pick up your weekly shopping, and realise that you needed to buy a 9mm pistol/.50 revolver/7.62mm semi automatic rifle as well, and stock up on 100's of rounds of ammo at the same time? Then, you get to the till and realise that you had forgotten to buy your 11 year old daughter a pink 9mm semi automatic pistol - just like the ones advertised on the TV.
Many people in the US worship guns and base their whole life around their love of weaponry, much the same way as some folks over here love football or photography.
I actually find the US obsession with guns sick and obscene, and something which has undoubtably contributed to the 20,000 to 30,000 firearm deaths each year.
 
Garry Edwards said:
In this country, handguns are virtually unavailable. There are odd exceptions, such as long barrelled pistols, black powder and maybe some others, but the types that criminals might want to steal and use for crime have pretty much gone.
Click to expand...

Seems quite a lot of the hand guns that are used by criminals these days are pool guns. You rent the gun (£250-500 seems the going rate and the ammo is £5 a round). Most of these are kept in 'safe' houses by custodians to be collected when required.
 
odd jim said:
You know the history of the NATO round? Designed with a high chance of maiming and not necessarily killing? The idea behind it was that a certain percentage of a fighting forces *wounded* does more detriment to that force than if the same amount were killed, as they have to care for and carry their wounded.
Click to expand...

Strangely enough I know a lot about the introduction of the 5.56mm round and a move away from the 7.62.

The actual idea was to standardise ammo size around nato so it could be shared. The 5.56mm round was also called a force multiplier, as the soldier could carry more rounds (mod was quoting twice as much at onwe time) than 7.62 and so be in the field longer, require re-equiping less etc. Whilst it's true, wounding takes more troops out of line than straight killing, that wasn't a primary consideration in the change.

The damage is done by cavitation and the tumbling, affected by the rifling onside the barrel, but this is offset by lethality at distance. The Sa-80 didn't have the brute force stopping power of the older SLR at over 500m, but was highly effective up to that distance,
 
Byker28i said:
Seems quite a lot of the hand guns that are used by criminals these days are pool guns. You rent the gun (£250-500 seems the going rate and the ammo is £5 a round). Most of these are kept in 'safe' houses by custodians to be collected when required.
Click to expand...
Yes, that and converted blank firing pistols, that can fire just one round. They are probably as dangerous to the criminal who pulls the trigger as to the intended victim, thank God.

Ammo is a different matter, it's easy to buy primers, cartridge cases and propellant and the actual bullets are easily made. Until fairly recently it was legal to buy the various ingredients without a firearms certificate, and there must be a lot of loading equipment/components still around. That's for centrefire ammo, rimfire is much harder. Someone once asked me to supply him with .22 rimfire ammo for his Uzi spray and pray, I told him that I couldn't get it and told the police where to find an Uzi...

All of which tells me that the controls that we have in this country work very well.
 
Garry Edwards said:
All of which tells me that the controls that we have in this country work very well.
Click to expand...

I think you're right. Much better to have to give a valid reason before you are allowed to own one than getting one free with every packet of cornflakes.


Steve.
 
I'd much rather see gun ownership relaxed but not totally relaxed like theirs, our muggers and criminals use bats, machettes, knives. I'd rather be shot dead than stabbed to death and a gun would level the playing field for self defence.

I admire Americas gun laws in someways, but can the the folly of them too.

Don't the swiss have fairly pragmatic and sensible gun ownership laws, crime over there isn't a problem. We should learn from them.

Edit, I used to do target shooting through a local rifle club. 7.62, 22. Its an awesome sport denied to so many young people.
 
Last edited:
donut said:
which bit was i wrong about ?
Click to expand...
Your view that the facts I stated about .22's being [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] for a start?
 
what facts about the .22 Jim ? the bit that they fly about in a body and turn it to mush ?
 
ST4 said:
I'd like to shoot someone who tried to rob me.
Click to expand...

And they would probably like to shoot you. Who is going to get the first shot in? You who needs to get his gun from wherever you are carrying it or the robber who is already prepared?


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
And they would probably like to shoot you. Who is going to get the first shot in? You who needs to get his gun from wherever you are carrying it or the robber who is already prepared?


Steve.
Click to expand...

Its a quicker death than getting stabbed. It levels the field. If someone breaks into your house, you can shoot them dead. I don't see the issue?
 
odd jim said:
I said I'd rather be hit by a 5.56 than a .22, but ideally I'd rather not be shot by anything.

You know the history of the NATO round?

Perhaps you've seen too many movies with exploding heads?
Click to expand...

more dis information about the nato round to add to your previous ,,,,
and where did i say anything about exploding heads ???
ok why would you rather be hit by a 5.56 than a .22 ? ( because they're as near the same calibre as you can get )
 
It's not disinformation, it's fact.

I've already explained the above in a previous post - it's nothing to do with calibre.

I'll leave you to go back to Call of Duty.
 
you should ba a politician Jim ,,,you can say quite a bit without answering a single question

i'll try again ,,where did i say anything about exploding heads ?
the 5.56 round wasnt designed to not kill people ( maybe you could point me in the direction of some information )
and why would you rather be hit with a .223 instead of a .22 ?
 
donut said:
you should ba a politician Jim ,,,you can say quite a bit without answering a single question

i'll try again ,,where did i say anything about exploding heads ?
the 5.56 round wasnt designed to not kill people ( maybe you could point me in the direction of some information )
and why would you rather be hit with a .223 instead of a .22 ?
Click to expand...
Lol where did unsay it wasn't designed to kill people? I said to maim as well as kill, you should google the origins of 5.56.

You're obsessed with calibre in this discussion, as I said, it's nothing to do with it - unless you're also saying my .22 rim fire has the same identical killing power as my .22 air rufles?
 
Jim - Ahem post 65

Donut - have a look at the rifling on a 5.56 rifle, say the SA80. (hint 1/7)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top