The official (Bah Humbug) Olympics thread

Simon has it right, there is access to all who want it.

I live near Chorley, in Lancashire and on the UK rowing club website they have a find a club section were you search by postcode. With 50 miles of me there are over 40 Rowing clubs listed (550 nation-wide). These include universities (Liverpool, Lancaster and Bradford) Sea Cadet groups and just Normal Rowing club, this is certain not an elitist group of available facilities.

Yes there are none within 10 miles so more difficult for somebody in our town to excel in rowing, but would a local person be inspired to do rowing, well probably not, they look at who and what is in their area, and it's those who they want to emulate and in the local heroes of sport list it has international runner, cyclist, canoeists, golf players, rugby and footballers, triathletes and several other sports. So next Redgrave may not come from here but the next Bradley might or the next top rugby player (The next top woman pole vaulter does :) go Holly go )

Simon has made a VERY important point about the parents, they really do have to be involved and in many cases to make sacrifices, which unfortunately many are not willing to do. It's unfortunate that some sports clubs ( and Scout & Guides too) are just seen as a cheap baby-sitting service and when the time comes for their child's needs to be taken to event or some equipment bought they just lose interest ( we lose many a talented child because of this)

As for the cost to participate in different sports when starting out, it will be very similar for each sport, the rowing club will provided the boat, the velodrome provide bikes, the canoe club has boats, the athletic club has discus and shot or high jump equipment, these are club owned and provided.


There is the issue of funding for each sport, well I would wager the cost of an athletics track and all the relevant equipment would be far far more expensive than the cost of a rowing club. So when you look at the money given to so called elitist sports compared to the working mans sports don't forget the huge amount that local and regional councils are pumping in to running tracks each year.
 
whiteflyer said:
There is the issue of funding for each sport, well I would wager the cost of an athletics track and all the relevant equipment would be far far more expensive than the cost of a rowing club. So when you look at the money given to so called elitist sports compared to the working mans sports don't forget the huge amount that local and regional councils are pumping in to running tracks each year.
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:thumbs: that was the point i was trying to make, though you state it much more cogently. Laudrup seems to be under the impression that you can train to be an olympic class sprinter by just doing a bit of running on any bit of flat ground about 100m long - wheras the reality is a little more complicated
 
At college (sixth form) we had a rowing club because we were right next to a river. It cost me nothing to row for 2 years, I didn't have to buy any special equipment. Most clubs have a large amount of boats that can be used by all members, yes there is a membership fee but there is a membership fee for most clubs and activities. Most sports that require specialist equipment are the same.
Contrast that with the high school I went to, we played football and did athletics in pe lessons not once we we actually taught anything or was any technique ever worked on, so maybe there is a problem (although pe has changed massively since I was at school) with how sport is delivered at school, although remember schools have very little money to spend on equipment, so how do we get round the fact that schools don't have amazing facilities to allow your under privileged child to take part in some of the more "cost prohibitive" sports?


Out of interest I live in the centre of a city and I can and have 3 times in the last week been to play tennis on a hard standing court for nothing, that is good and speaking to my mother (who is a council officer and deals with sports and recreation in her borough) they have opened up tennis courts and bowling greens for free. So opportunities are there.
 
same at my old college, we had a gym that was free to use. there were many many sports groups you could join for little/no cost. we used to go cycling and there were free mountain bikes you could take out.

the opertunities are there.
 
Laudrup seems to think that Bolt was selected after being seen running on the beach, but alas Jamaican track stars take a different route

Many Jamaican athletes chose to train in the United States to use the better facilities. There are currently 21 Jamaican coaches in American universities. The American university system gives athletes the chance to continue their academic studies and train to become an international athlete at the same time. Over 200 Jamaican athletes train in America. Most of Jamaica’s successful athletes have come through the American collegial system
 
So training to be a sprinter is more complicated than having £20,000 fibreglass, carbon Kevlar sculls and access to an appropriate river? Yeah makes sense. I suppose training for the long jump is more complicated and expensive than having your own horse for practicing show jumping? The high cost of replacing the sand etc. If what you said was true then why don't we see poorer nations dominating rowing if it is cheaper?

We are good at elitist sports as we can afford them.
 
Laudrup said:
So training to be a sprinter is more complicated than having £20,000 fibreglass, carbon Kevlar sculls and access to an appropriate river? Yeah makes sense. I suppose training for the long jump is more complicated and expensive than having your own horse for practicing show jumping? The high cost of replacing the sand etc. If what you said was true then why don't we see poorer nations dominating rowing if it is cheaper?

We are good at elitist sports as we can afford them.
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they are not elitist though, they can be, but they don't have to be. you don't have to spent £20,000 on a skull when your starting out, you can spend much much less than that (when at college a friend used to have a business buying and selling skulls, 4, 8 etc. he could pick up a ropey but usable skull for £50...) your making out that you have to spend all this money to start at the sport which you dont.
 
cambsno said:
There is access these days if someone really wants it. I mean, why not get on the soapbox that there are not privately educated dart players?? There will be certain professions or sports people do which attract or put off sexes, racial groups, upper/middle/lower classes but if someone is determined enough then they can and will have the opportunity.

Living in Cambridge I see rowing a lot but appreciate that most places dont have the setup for that, and as you need to pretty much be a uni student then of course you will probably be white and middle/upper class to attend Cambridge but thats not to say a black lad from a single parent family in Brixton cant become the next Redgrave? Look at Alan Sugar, who made it from a working class family, or John Major who grew up on a council estate? Look at the sacrifices Rebecca Adlingtons family for example made to help her train, many parents will not do that so it is also down to the parents in many ways.

Thats life is an argument. I bet you that the Ethiopian runners do not come from the camps featured on the appeal programs and come from the more privileged (feel free to prove me wrong though),
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Telling kids they could be the next John Major would be a hard sell. As for runners arguably the most famous Ethiopian, Haile Gebrselassie, ran 10km barefoot a day to school with his books and didn't have shoes until he was 14. If you look at Iten in the Kenyan Rift Valley you have a lot of world class distance athletes training there. It is still Kenya where athletes will come from dirt poor surroundings given half of Kenya is classed as being in absolute poverty.

Too many medals are coming from a tiny percentage of the population, and that's because that tiny percentage can afford it and are given ample opportunity to experience it. That needs to change.
 
whitewash said:
they are not elitist though, they can be, but they don't have to be. you don't have to spent £20,000 on a skull when your starting out, you can spend much much less than that (when at college a friend used to have a business buying and selling skulls, 4, 8 etc. he could pick up a ropey but usable skull for £50...) your making out that you have to spend all this money to start at the sport which you dont.
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same with Time-Trialling on the bike - I rode my first time-trial on my normal bog-standard roadbike - which believe me was FAR from some carbon-fibre secret squirrel skunkworks special jobbie - it was £20 from a mate who'd got a new one for his birthday!. I then got a saturday-job whilst still at school to aquire the bits to improve the bike.
 
Laudrup said:
So training to be a sprinter is more complicated than having £20,000 fibreglass, carbon Kevlar sculls and access to an appropriate river? Yeah makes sense. I suppose training for the long jump is more complicated and expensive than having your own horse for practicing show jumping? The high cost of replacing the sand etc. If what you said was true then why don't we see poorer nations dominating rowing if it is cheaper?

We are good at elitist sports as we can afford them.
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Belarus won mixed doubles tennis - elitist sport as not everyone can afford a tennis court to be built and maintained??

This is not meant to be a put down on any equestrian rider at all, as you need to be pretty fit to compete, but to be a runner you need to train every day (so very hard if not impossible to work at same time). You dont just run, you need to do weights and other training, you need a dietician, you need a coach and probably access to video so your foot placement etc... can be analysed etc... You may also want a sport psychologist too. So costs will add up! For a rider the costs are probably more onto the horse.

We are bloody great at darts and snooker, but they are not elitist sports. We are useless (overall for last 60 years) at tennis but thats elitist. You really do have an attitude problem!
 
whitewash said:
they are not elitist though, they can be, but they don't have to be. you don't have to spent £20,000 on a skull when your starting out, you can spend much much less than that (when at college a friend used to have a business buying and selling skulls, 4, 8 etc. he could pick up a ropey but usable skull for £50...) your making out that you have to spend all this money to start at the sport which you dont.
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Again if it isn't elitist and is so cheap then where are the poorer nations medals? How many inner city schools offer rowing?
 
Laudrup said:
Again if it isn't elitist and is so cheap then where are the poorer nations medals? How many inner city schools offer rowing?
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not many, for a variety of reasons, so pose a solution to your problem rather than just shouting about how its a problem and needs to change.

also at no point did i mention that it is cheap to compete at international level, its not cheap to compete at that level in ANYTHING. i was making a comment based on how it is possible to get acquainted and interested in it at a cost much less than the figures you quote.

your entire argument seems to be based around it being the schools responsibility to provide and deliver opportunities in everything to everyone, at what point does it become the responsibility of individual to go out and find their own opportunities to succeed in something they want to do?
 
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cambsno said:
Belarus won mixed doubles tennis - elitist sport as not everyone can afford a tennis court to be built and maintained??

This is not meant to be a put down on any equestrian rider at all, as you need to be pretty fit to compete, but to be a runner you need to train every day (so very hard if not impossible to work at same time). You dont just run, you need to do weights and other training, you need a dietician, you need a coach and probably access to video so your foot placement etc... can be analysed etc... You may also want a sport psychologist too. So costs will add up! For a rider the costs are probably more onto the horse.

We are bloody great at darts and snooker, but they are not elitist sports. We are useless (overall for last 60 years) at tennis but thats elitist. You really do have an attitude problem!
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Again another poor argument. Pro tennis players like Victoria Azarenka who won the mixed doubles purposely move to America at a young age for the sole reason that well maintained tennis courts and coaching are there. Or did you think she was playing in -3 in Minsk hitting snowballs about?

Elitist sports attract the most well off, the most well off can afford to send their kids to private schools where they participate in the most elite sports and the cycle continues. If the BOA chairman can spot it why are you making excuses for it?
 
Laudrup said:
Telling kids they could be the next John Major would be a hard sell. As for runners arguably the most famous Ethiopian, Haile Gebrselassie, ran 10km barefoot a day to school with his books and didn't have shoes until he was 14. If you look at Iten in the Kenyan Rift Valley you have a lot of world class distance athletes training there. It is still Kenya where athletes will come from dirt poor surroundings given half of Kenya is classed as being in absolute poverty.

Too many medals are coming from a tiny percentage of the population, and that's because that tiny percentage can afford it and are given ample opportunity to experience it. That needs to change.
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I used Major as an example, but there are plenty of very successful people who have come from nothing to fame & fortune. Rather than sit and whinge why not suggest alternatives? As has been pointed out to you (which you have ignored) people can do things if they have the right attitude. Dare I say that you are one of the many people who expect something for nothing these days and want it all handed on a plate?
 
whitewash said:
not many, for a variety of reasons, so pose a solution to your problem rather than just shouting about how its a problem and needs to change.

also at no point did i mention that it is cheap to compete at international level, its not cheap to compete at that level in ANYTHING. i was making a comment based on how it is possible to get acquainted and interested in it at a cost much less than the figures you quote.

your entire argument seems to be based around it being the schools responsibility to provide and deliver opportunities in everything to everyone, at what point does it become the responsibility of individual to go out and find their own opportunities to succeed in something they want to do?
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As I said earlier the wheels are in motion. A £1 billion 5 year youth strategy and more emphasis being placed on rejuvenating competitive sport in schools is what is being implemented. Just like elitist sports money is what it takes.
 
I'm so pleased I'm not the only one who cannot care for the Olympics.

What's the point in it, it's boring!! Yay, lets watch people run around a track... amazing.

I don't like sports. I'd rather sit at home drink lots of monster and eat crisps (or sit in a hide, drinking lots of monster with a camera)!

The worse thing of all...... It has pushed family guy onto around 12.30am on BBC3.. so lame so very lame.
 
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cambsno said:
I used Major as an example, but there are plenty of very successful people who have come from nothing to fame & fortune. Rather than sit and whinge why not suggest alternatives? As has been pointed out to you (which you have ignored) people can do things if they have the right attitude. Dare I say that you are one of the many people who expect something for nothing these days and want it all handed on a plate?
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For every John Major or Alan Sugar how many other prime ministers and captains of industry went to £10k a term schools and joined the Bullingdon Club? You can upset the odds, but they are firmly stacked against you.
 
cambsno said:
We are bloody great at darts and snooker, but they are not elitist sports. We are useless (overall for last 60 years) at tennis but thats elitist. You really do have an attitude problem!
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andy murray probably disagrees ;) (about the tennis, not the attitude :lol:)
 
Laudrup said:
For every John Major or Alan Sugar how many other prime ministers and captains of industry went to £10k a term schools and joined the Bullingdon Club? You can upset the odds, but they are firmly stacked against you.
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I really dont know, and in all probablility most went to good schools, BUT what if you are born with learning difficulties, have rubbish parents, happen to have had a trauma as a kid, develop a bad illness.... the odds are stacked against you there too. That is life, sometimes it isnt fair, however there is opportunity for all and state schools are pretty good!

The only answer is communism, and as we have all seen, it didnt work!
 
Laudrup said:
So training to be a sprinter is more complicated than having £20,000 fibreglass, carbon Kevlar sculls and access to an appropriate river? Yeah makes sense. I suppose training for the long jump is more complicated and expensive than having your own horse for practicing show jumping? The high cost of replacing the sand etc. If what you said was true then why don't we see poorer nations dominating rowing if it is cheaper?

We are good at elitist sports as we can afford them.
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hate to be pendantic but most of the riders competing in the olymics wont be riding horses they own.

and again, you dont need to own a horse to ride. plenty of cheap ways in.
 
whitewash said:
not many, for a variety of reasons, so pose a solution to your problem rather than just shouting about how its a problem and needs to change.

also at no point did i mention that it is cheap to compete at international level, its not cheap to compete at that level in ANYTHING. i was making a comment based on how it is possible to get acquainted and interested in it at a cost much less than the figures you quote.

your entire argument seems to be based around it being the schools responsibility to provide and deliver opportunities in everything to everyone, at what point does it become the responsibility of individual to go out and find their own opportunities to succeed in something they want to do?
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If you can spend £20k a year to send the kids to school then you'll no doubt be wanting to get an element of value for money. These elitist expensive sports provide that. The schools have a huge responsibility on their shoulders and they need more funding.
 
Laudrup said:
If you can spend £20k a year to send the kids to school then you'll no doubt be wanting to get an element of value for money. These elitist expensive sports provide that. The schools have a huge responsibility on their shoulders and they need more funding.
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Going off topic here but there is an easy way - stop wasting money educating people that dont want it! A good friend lectures at a local college in motor mechanics. About a 3rd want to be there to learn and get into the trade, about a 3rd are there as it keeps families benefits up and stuff like that(he as been told this by pupils and their parents themselves) and the final 3rd are just too thick and are there because the powers in charge think as long as people are in full time education then things will be fine.

These kids are getting loads of money and resouce spent on them to make people like you feel better, but in reality they could probably halve the resource and spending and still have the same end result in terms of people qualifying.
 
neil_g said:
hate to be pendantic but most of the riders competing in the olymics wont be riding horses they own.

and again, you dont need to own a horse to ride. plenty of cheap ways in.
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Yeah you just might need to use Ann Romney's horse or be lucky and your dad is the King of Saudi Arabia or your gran is the Queen of the host nation. You have 71 year olds and 65 yer olds competing in it. Imagine a 71 year old in athletics.
 
surely inner city schools in deprived areas should be concentrating more on upping the academic achievement of their students (where the majority suffer) and be funding that as ultimately that will be of more benefit to more students. public schools are ridiculously underfunded in almost everything they do.


I get the impression that for you the only solution is to ban any sports that cost money to equip and compete in (as you view them as elitist), if the poorest schools cant afford to compete in them, deprive everyone.
 
cambsno said:
Going off topic here but there is an easy way - stop wasting money educating people that dont want it! A good friend lectures at a local college in motor mechanics. About a 3rd want to be there to learn and get into the trade, about a 3rd are there as it keeps families benefits up and stuff like that(he as been told this by pupils and their parents themselves) and the final 3rd are just too thick and are there because the powers in charge think as long as people are in full time education then things will be fine.

These kids are getting loads of money and resouce spent on them to make people like you feel better, but in reality they could probably halve the resource and spending and still have the same end result in terms of people qualifying.
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Maybe your friend's lectures aren't as riveting (no pun intended) as he seems to think they are?
 
Laudrup said:
Yeah you just might need to use Ann Romney's horse or be lucky and your dad is the King of Saudi Arabia or your gran is the Queen of the host nation. You have 71 year olds and 65 yer olds competing in it. Imagine a 71 year old in athletics.
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whats age got to do with anything?

mary king for example i would bet is much fitter than any of us posting here and she in her mid 60s if i remember rightly.
 
EMA (thank its now been stopped) and the new rules of being in E,E or T until 18 have lead to many Further Education students who don't actually want to be there (i work in a similar line of work to camb friend although I dont have anything to do with FE education).
 
whitewash said:
surely inner city schools in deprived areas should be concentrating more on upping the academic achievement of their students (where the majority suffer) and be funding that as ultimately that will be of more benefit to more students. .
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thing is you can teach , but you can't make them learn .. if the kids are more intereted in arsing about than they are in studying the schools can't keep on raising the academic achievements

all they can do is focus on those sensible enough to see education as a way out

somewhat off topic now so i'll leave that there
 
whitewash said:
surely inner city schools in deprived areas should be concentrating more on upping the academic achievement of their students (where the majority suffer) and be funding that as ultimately that will be of more benefit to more students. public schools are ridiculously underfunded in almost everything they do.


I get the impression that for you the only solution is to ban any sports that cost money to equip and compete in (as you view them as elitist), if the poorest schools cant afford to compete in them, deprive everyone.
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They could, but like sport it takes money. Teacher to pupil ratio, resources, even the quality of teachers and their pay are all better in better schools. It's not surprising they do better.

These sports are elitist, I didn't say you couldn't do them.
 
neil_g said:
whats age got to do with anything?

mary king for example i would bet is much fitter than any of us posting here and she in her mid 60s if i remember rightly.
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You'd have to speak for yourself there.
 
Laudrup said:
These sports are elitist, I didn't say you couldn't do them.
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so if the rank and file can do them, how are they elitist ? :bang:

you need a better dictionary
 
big soft moose said:
so if the rank and file can do them, how are they elitist ? :bang:

you need a better dictionary
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I was accused of wanting to ban people from doing them, which I didn't ever say. Your reading comprehension skills wouldn't place in the Olympics.
 
neither would your politeness, or social ettiquette abilities

I'm still not clear on how rowing can be an elitist sport when kids from a hackney comp can do it - but i'm not bothering to engage with you further as this thread is way off topic
 
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neil_g said:
whats age got to do with anything?

mary king for example i would bet is much fitter than any of us posting here and she in her mid 60s if i remember rightly.
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Don't be so damned cheeky!! Mary's only just turned 51!!
 
Fwiw 50% if the gb rowing team went to state schools, as did Bradley wiggins.
 
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