The official (Bah Humbug) Olympics thread

[Laudrup]

do you honestly believe that a poor kid from a deprived slum somewhere , whose main running experience is fleeing from da babylon innit , is really on an equal footing with a rich kid who can afford to train for four hours per day with top end coaching support provided by mummy and daddy.

I don't disagree with the essence of what you are saying but you've picked a spectacularly poor example.

Can a poor kid from a deprived slum still run 100m? Yes. Can a poor kid from a deprived slum sail at a regatta? Ride his horse cross country? Row his boat gently down the stream? Cycle his £20,000 bike wearing his space helmet?

No.

 

[Laudrup]

and that differs how from atheletics, or any other sport ? - its always going to be easier to train to an international level if you've got loadsamoney - regardless of the dicipline.

How much money does it cost to run 100m? 93% of footballers went to state school. We'd win far more golds if more sport was open to the other 93%.

 

[cambsno]

Laudrup you really do have a huge chip on your shoulder!

Ok, so maybe kids from a more privileged background do have more of a chance at competing at the Olympics. Thats life! Kids from privileged backgrounds probably are less likely to make it as a Premiership footballer where you can earn loads more money so maybe it evens itself out!

Hey, based on recent years if you are not of West Indian origin you have no chance of a sprinting medal or if not of African (East I believe) you have little chance of a long distance gold - got a chip about that??

 

[Laudrup]

Where did that quote come from? Because I'm not sure their opinions do mean more than a canoeist's!

Even 'without Googling', my knowledge of Track and Field has the names of the other convicted drug cheats on that list jumping out at me!!

You can watch Justin Gatlin at 2150 who has been banned before. I can see why people cheat as the rewards are so great and the margin for error so thin, but a lifetime ban is draconian as the sanctimonious BOA found out.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Can a poor kid from a deprived slum still run 100m? Yes. Can a poor kid from a deprived slum sail at a regatta? Ride his horse cross country? Row his boat gently down the stream? Cycle his £20,000 bike wearing his space helmet?

No.

Money is always going to create opportunities, that's an inevitable privilege of wealth, but there's a lot being done to make sport accessible to those without the money to bankroll their own endeavours. When I was in secondary school (10 odd years ago) we had members of British cycling come to our school and anyone who wished to was invited to ride a series of assessment challenges on the school field to identify young talent. From there they'd have been taken to proper facilities for their talents to be assessed and nurtured if they desired.

That initial opportunity cost nothing, obviously there'd be costs down the line (travel, accommodation, perhaps bikes if you couldn't get sponsorship) but by then you were investing in a talent you knew existed.

I'm sure that equivalent 'scouting' type things exist for other sports, and have no doubt they've improved massively since I was a school kid!

That was an entirely typical, run of the mill comprehensive secondary school with no previous reputation for sports accomplishments, by the way.

To suggest that somehow the 100m is a 'real' event for the men compared to the others is frankly ridiculous, in anything it's a justification that we should invest more in ensuring everyone has the opportunity to have talents developed regardless of their financial position.

 

[DemiLion]

... We'd win far more golds if more sport was open to the other 93%.

I'd be interested to know what your suggestions for a solution are?

 

[whiteflyer]

You seem to think that these cyclist go out and buy their own £20K bike and then start to learn how to ride, I'm sorry but sport is just not like that.

You start like any kid on a bike, you go to your local club and do some races, you get better and show promise, UK sport and the Lottery along with sponsors step in and buy your £20K bike.

Have a look at photos of our canoe slalom team that were not taken at the Olympics, every boat has a bloody big Tesco sticker on.

Can that poor kid afford to get to the athletic track every day, can they afford to buy some running spike ?

Most coaching is done at and by the clubs, it's free to members you do not pay until you go professional.

"its always going to be easier to train to an international level if you've got loadsamoney"

I can tell you now back in 1978 when I was winning international canoe races, my factory working single parent with two children father did not have loads of money.

At international level it's funded by UK Sports who spent £264,143,753 over the last 4 years funding our Olympic sports.
The more medal winning chance the more money you got

Archery £4,408,000
Athletics £25,148,000
Badminton £7,434,900
Basketball £8,599,000
Boxing (Amateur) £9,551,400
Canoeing £16,176,700
Cycling £26,032,000
Diving £6,535,700
Equestrian £13,395,100
Fencing £2,529,335
Gymnastics £10,770,600
Handball £2,924,721
Hockey £15,013,200
Judo £7,498,000
Modern Pentathlon £6,288,800
Rowing £27,287,600
Sailing £22,942,700
Shooting £2,461,866
Swimming £25,144,600
Synchronised Swimming £3,398,300
Table Tennis £1,213,848
Taekwondo £4,833,600
Triathlon £5,291,300
Volleyball £3,536,077
Water Polo £2,928,039
Weightlifting £1,365,157
Wrestling £1,435,210
Total £264,143,753


Saying you can't afford it, is just an excuse for I can be bothered.

 

[Laudrup]

Laudrup you really do have a huge chip on your shoulder!

Ok, so maybe kids from a more privileged background do have more of a chance at competing at the Olympics. Thats life! Kids from privileged backgrounds probably are less likely to make it as a Premiership footballer where you can earn loads more money so maybe it evens itself out!

Hey, based on recent years if you are not of West Indian origin you have no chance of a sprinting medal or if not of African (East I believe) you have little chance of a long distance gold - got a chip about that??

If Lord Moynihan, chairman of the British Olympic Association can state it and I agree then why is that having a chip on your shoulder? Submitting trite defences like 'that's life!' is no argument. The gap needs to be closed and more access to young people of a modest or little income.

As for the long distance running, Paula Radcliffe doesn't do too badly and does hold the marathon world record for women (and a white female Russian is second). Kenya produces some fine long distance athletes for sure, but it is complicated with their VO2 max when training, running economy etc all playing a role. Genes can matter of course (slender frames etc) but when you can win one middle tier race abroad and it is equivalent to 20 years salary you can see the draw.

 

[big soft moose]

Can a poor kid from a deprived slum still run 100m? Yes. Can a poor kid from a deprived slum sail at a regatta? Ride his horse cross country? Row his boat gently down the stream? Cycle his £20,000 bike wearing his space helmet?

No.

you really miss the point here

can a poor kid from a slum run 100m, yes

can he afford to buy specialist running gear - no

can he afford to get specialist coaching help - no

can he aford to train 4 plus hours a day because he doesnt need to earn a living - no

can he afford to travel round the country to meets to get noticed - again no

you seem to seriously think that theres nothing more to being an international level sprinter than doing a bit of running - i'd seriously suggest a bit of research into what it actually involves before holding forth on the subject

 

[whitewash]

I suspect he's talking about thing like rowing , fencing, shooting etc which team GB are rather good at.

and it is a fair comment that if you are a deprived kid from say chappels town leeds you have no chance whatsoever of learning to row - but if you go to school in say marlow, bucks then its a virtual certainty that your school will have a rowing club.

My point however was that a kid from a deprived area like that has close to zero chance of becoming an olympic sprinter either

determined people will always find a way to do what they want, regardless of "class"

 

[big soft moose]

determined people will always find a way to do what they want, regardless of "class"

i dont disagree - all i'm saying is that

a) it's a damn site easier if you've got loadsamoney and
b) this is equally true for all sports

 

[H2O]

a) it's a damn site easier if you've got loadsamoney

isn't everything.

 

[big soft moose]

You can watch Justin Gatlin at 2150 who has been banned before. I can see why people cheat as the rewards are so great and the margin for error so thin, but a lifetime ban is draconian as the sanctimonious BOA found out.

thats a contradictory statement - if people are going to be rewarded greatly for cheating if they don't get caught, then they should be punished in equal measure if they do in order to deter them from doing so.

personally i don't see anything sanctimonious in insisting that we only want people in team Gb who obey the rules rather than breaking them for personal reward.

and like i said earlier i really hope Duane Chambers comes last (or preferably doesnt even make it out of the heats)

 

[Laudrup]

Money is always going to create opportunities, that's an inevitable privilege of wealth, but there's a lot being done to make sport accessible to those without the money to bankroll their own endeavours. When I was in secondary school (10 odd years ago) we had members of British cycling come to our school and anyone who wished to was invited to ride a series of assessment challenges on the school field to identify young talent. From there they'd have been taken to proper facilities for their talents to be assessed and nurtured if they desired.

That initial opportunity cost nothing, obviously there'd be costs down the line (travel, accommodation, perhaps bikes if you couldn't get sponsorship) but by then you were investing in a talent you knew existed.

I'm sure that equivalent 'scouting' type things exist for other sports, and have no doubt they've improved massively since I was a school kid!

That was an entirely typical, run of the mill comprehensive secondary school with no previous reputation for sports accomplishments, by the way.

To suggest that somehow the 100m is a 'real' event for the men compared to the others is frankly ridiculous, in anything it's a justification that we should invest more in ensuring everyone has the opportunity to have talents developed regardless of their financial position.

Why do you think we are winning multiple golds at rowing and cycling and not even getting one athlete to the final at the 100m male or female? A mass participation sport that is open to almost every nation that can conjure up 100m of flat ground.

 

[whiteflyer]

Pete I can see your argument and agree there is more to being an international level sprinter than doing a bit of running but, the opportunities are still there.

Katarina Thompson-Johnson competed in the heptahlon yesterday, as a youngster she joined Liverpool Harriers who compete in the UKYAL league which is for under 17s, now they go to each meet in a club coach, they have club trainers that work on a voluntary basis. I first saw her at the UKYAL finals in 2008, and it was plain to see even then she had a talent above most of the other girls, it's at this level young athletes are spotted and then nurtured.

Grants and lottery fund steps in as they get to levels were they need compete overseas at junior level, if they are really good they turn pro pretty quick.

 

[Laudrup]

thats a contradictory statement - if people are going to be rewarded greatly for cheating if they don't get caught, then they should be punished in equal measure if they do in order to deter them from doing so.

personally i don't see anything sanctimonious in insisting that we only want people in team Gb who obey the rules rather than breaking them for personal reward.

and like i said earlier i really hope Duane Chambers comes last (or preferably doesnt even make it out of the heats)

Dwain Chambers did pay back prize money, and he has already came 4th in the semi finals and won't make the final posting 10.05 seconds. The BOA are sanctimonious and CAS rightly called them on their unenforceable law. He made a mistake, he deserved his second chance.

 

[big soft moose]

Pete I can see your argument and agree there is more to being an international level sprinter than doing a bit of running but, the opportunities are still there.

Katarina Thompson-Johnson competed in the heptahlon yesterday, as a youngster she joined Liverpool Harriers who compete in the UKYAL league which is for under 17s, now they go to each meet in a club coach, they have club trainers that work on a voluntary basis. I first saw her at the UKYAL finals in 2008, and it was plain to see even then she had a talent above most of the other girls, it's at this level young athletes are spotted and then nurtured.

Grants and lottery fund steps in as they get to levels were they need compete overseas at junior level, if they are really good they turn pro pretty quick.

I don't disagree - i'm certainly not endorsing laudrups argument - and certainly most sports are accesible to most of the uk population - all i was saying was that if you are right at the underclass end of society you are much less likely to participate in any sport - because even the basic like having PE kit and thus being able to find out what sport is like , can't be taken for granted

 

[whiteflyer]

Why do you think we are winning multiple golds at rowing and cycling and not even getting one athlete to the final at the 100m male or female? A mass participation sport that is open to almost every nation that can conjure up 100m of flat ground.

So we haven't got someone in one event, but come up with one reason why any child in Britain can't start any of the following GB medal winning events.

Men's Long Jump
Men's 10,000m
Women's Heptathlon
Men's Individual Time Trial (Cycling)
Women's Road Race
Women's -78kg Judo
Women's +78kg Judo
Men's 200m Breaststroke
Women's 400m Freestyle
Women's 800m Freestyle

Every kid can run, learn to swim and ride a bike, it's not money it's about the willingness to get off your ass and have ago in the first place.

 

[big soft moose]

Dwain Chambers did pay back prize money, and he has already came 4th in the semi finals and won't make the final posting 10.05 seconds. The BOA are sanctimonious and CAS rightly called them on their unenforceable law. He made a mistake, he deserved his second chance.

he didnt make a mistake - he deliberately and knowingly broke the rules knowing what the consequences would be, and having got caught he should have aaccepted those consequences. "can't do the time don't do the crime"

 

[Laudrup]

you really miss the point here

can a poor kid from a slum run 100m, yes

can he afford to buy specialist running gear - no

can he afford to get specialist coaching help - no

can he aford to train 4 plus hours a day because he doesnt need to earn a living - no

can he afford to travel round the country to meets to get noticed - again no

you seem to seriously think that theres nothing more to being an international level sprinter than doing a bit of running - i'd seriously suggest a bit of research into what it actually involves before holding forth on the subject

Specialist running gear? What spikes and shorts and t-shirt? Hardly a custom built bike by The Secret Squirrel Club is it?

 

[Laudrup]

he didnt make a mistake - he deliberately and knowingly broke the rules knowing what the consequences would be, and having got caught he should have aaccepted those consequences. "can't do the time don't do the crime"

It wasn't the rules though as the CAS decision demonstrated.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Why do you think we are winning multiple golds at rowing and cycling and not even getting one athlete to the final at the 100m male or female? A mass participation sport that is open to almost every nation that can conjure up 100m of flat ground.

Only 4 nations are represented in the final 8 positions, including 3 jamaican and 3 US athletes. I'm no more informed than you to say what it is specifically these 2 nations do to produce such dominance in the sprint events.

I'm not even sure of your point in that post, or how it relates to what I said.

 

[H2O]

It wasn't the rules though as the CAS decision demonstrated.

It was the rules. They just decided it wasn't a fair rule surely?

A bad decision in my opinion. Knowingly cheating is more than just a mistake.

 

[Laudrup]

So we haven't got someone in one event, but come up with one reason why any child in Britain can't start any of the following GB medal winning events.

Men's Long Jump
Men's 10,000m
Women's Heptathlon
Men's Individual Time Trial (Cycling)
Women's Road Race
Women's -78kg Judo
Women's +78kg Judo
Men's 200m Breaststroke
Women's 400m Freestyle
Women's 800m Freestyle

Every kid can run, learn to swim and ride a bike, it's not money it's about the willingness to get off your ass and have ago in the first place.

If it isn't money explain why 50% of the medals in 2008 came from 7% of the private schools? If it wasn't money it'd be more of a mirror image of society like football, no?

 

[whiteflyer]

The Olympic stadium was built in one of the deprived areas of London

Christine Ohuruogu was born 1 mile from the stadium site.

Christine Ohuruogu wins silver in the 400m (I guess that rich middle class upbringing really helped then)

 

[Laudrup]

Only 4 nations are represented in the final 8 positions, including 3 jamaican and 3 US athletes. I'm no more informed than you to say what it is specifically these 2 nations do to produce such dominance in the sprint events.

I'm not even sure of your point in that post, or how it relates to what I said.

I was demonstrating how the 100m is a 'real event' and not one propped up with barriers to entry like rowing, cycling, equestrian etc. When the athletics start that's the real Olympics starting. Not countries with access to multiple Olympic sized swimming pools and modern velodromes with expensive R&D departments and regattas.

 

[Laudrup]

The Olympic stadium was built in one of the deprived areas of London

Christine Ohuruogu was born 1 mile from the stadium site.

Christine Ohuruogu wins silver in the 400m (I guess that rich middle class upbringing really helped then)

But that's no less than you'd expect as the barriers to entry are lower for athletics. In a parallel universe if Christine Ohuruogu won the gold in dressage then you might have a point.

 

[whiteflyer]

I was demonstrating how the 100m is a 'real event' and not one propped up with barriers to entry like rowing, cycling, equestrian etc. When the athletics start that's the real Olympics starting. Not countries with access to multiple Olympic sized swimming pools and modern velodromes with expensive R&D departments and regattas.

Hmm you may have a point becasue at the moment only 35 countries have their own velodrome

1 Argentina
2 Australia
3 Austria
4 Belgium
5 Bolivia
6 Canada
7 China
8 Cuba
9 Denmark
10 Estonia
11 Finland
12 France
13 Germany
14 Greece
15 Hungary
16 India
17 Italy
18 Japan
19 Lithuania
20 Malaysia
21 Mexico
22 The Netherlands
23 New Zealand
24 Nigeria
25 Pakistan
26 Peru
27 Philippines
28 Poland
29 Portugal
30 Russia
31 South Africa
32 South Korea
33 Spain
34 Sweden
35 United Kingdom
36 United States of America


The United Kingdom has 8 yes that right 8 Olympic sized swimming pools

 

[TriggerHappy]

I was demonstrating how the 100m is a 'real event' and not one propped up with barriers to entry like rowing, cycling, equestrian etc. When the athletics start that's the real Olympics starting. Not countries with access to multiple Olympic sized swimming pools and modern velodromes with expensive R&D departments and regattas.

So what's your proposed solution? Remove the events from the games that require more than a pair of trainers? Actually, the barefoot running movement is increasing in popularity I believe, so let's ban footwear entirely and then you don't even need running spikes!

Or do we invest more in giving opportunities for the less wealthy to flourish in sports aside from running?

 

[TriggerHappy]

Hmm you may have a point becasue at the moment only 35 countries have their own velodrome

1 Argentina
2 Australia
3 Austria
4 Belgium
5 Bolivia
6 Canada
7 China
8 Cuba
9 Denmark
10 Estonia
11 Finland
12 France
13 Germany
14 Greece
15 Hungary
16 India
17 Italy
18 Japan
19 Lithuania
20 Malaysia
21 Mexico
22 The Netherlands
23 New Zealand
24 Nigeria
25 Pakistan
26 Peru
27 Philippines
28 Poland
29 Portugal
30 Russia
31 South Africa
32 South Korea
33 Spain
34 Sweden
35 United Kingdom
36 United States of America

The United Kingdom has 8 yes that right 8 Olympic sized swimming pools

Hasn't stopped Phillip from representing Trinidad and Tobago in the track cycling. I'm sure there's others too, but his name springs to mind.

 

[Laudrup]

Hmm you may have a point becasue at the moment only 35 countries have their own velodrome

1 Argentina
2 Australia
3 Austria
4 Belgium
5 Bolivia
6 Canada
7 China
8 Cuba
9 Denmark
10 Estonia
11 Finland
12 France
13 Germany
14 Greece
15 Hungary
16 India
17 Italy
18 Japan
19 Lithuania
20 Malaysia
21 Mexico
22 The Netherlands
23 New Zealand
24 Nigeria
25 Pakistan
26 Peru
27 Philippines
28 Poland
29 Portugal
30 Russia
31 South Africa
32 South Korea
33 Spain
34 Sweden
35 United Kingdom
36 United States of America

Compared to the 205 countries with 100m of flat ground. As for cycling the research and development into it and the budget thrown at it is immense. The UK and Germany are the only two federations that have the budget to produce these special bikes. They are a technological marvel that can mean the difference between winning and losing.

 

[Laudrup]

So what's your proposed solution? Remove the events from the games that require more than a pair of trainers? Actually, the barefoot running movement is increasing in popularity I believe, so let's ban footwear entirely and then you don't even need running spikes!

Or do we invest more in giving opportunities for the less wealthy to flourish in sports aside from running?

We throw money at it, which is what is being done supposedly.

 

[whiteflyer]

The UK and Germany are the only two federations that have the budget to produce these special bikes. They are a technological marvel that can mean the difference between winning and losing.

What the USA can't afford to develop these bikes , bikes that by olympic rules MUST be available to buy by the general public (admittedly at huge cost, but it's not like F1 cars)

 

[whiteflyer]

So what's your proposed solution? Remove the events from the games that require more than a pair of trainers? Actually, the barefoot running movement is increasing in popularity I believe, so let's ban footwear entirely and then you don't even need running spikes!

Hang on a mo, we had enough of that with Zola Budd

 

[Laudrup]

What the USA can't afford to develop these bikes , bikes that by olympic rules MUST be available to buy by the general public (admittedly at huge cost, but it's not like F1 cars)

The USA spends £7.5 million per year on cycling, the UK spends £6.5 million per year just on elite cycling with about £23 million to the grassroots over 4 years. The USA could do it of course, given time, money and research and development and they do have a UK coach for their team. It'll come for them and China in time no doubt.

The design and technology shares quite a lot in common with F1 when you look into it.

 

[TriggerHappy]

One of the USA cyclists is a firefighter and relied on friends and family to help him get to the games apparently. Think his name was Tomkins, knocked out earlier today by Australia's Perkins in a 1/4 final if I remember correctly...I've watched so many events it's difficult to separate them now!

 

[TheBigYin]

One of the USA cyclists is a firefighter and relied on friends and family to help him get to the games apparently. Think his name was Tomkins, knocked out earlier today by Australia's Perkins in a 1/4 final if I remember correctly...I've watched so many events it's difficult to separate them now!

That's the guy that Jamie Staff's training.

 

[Laudrup]

Jimmy Watkins I think you are referring to. He lives 200km from his nearest velodrome, was all over the news. Good achievement for the guy mixing it with pros.

 

[whiteflyer]

GB have won medals in 12 different disciplines, which only China 14 and Russia 13 can better, which I think shows that we have a very diverse spread of talent and opportunity in the UK.

There are still sports yet to start which we have good chances of golds (BMX, Sprint Canoeing & Triathlon)

We would have had a great chance in Taekwondo if there had not been the very stupid none selection of Aaron Cook

 

[cambsno]

If Lord Moynihan, chairman of the British Olympic Association can state it and I agree then why is that having a chip on your shoulder? Submitting trite defences like 'that's life!' is no argument. The gap needs to be closed and more access to young people of a modest or little income.

As for the long distance running, Paula Radcliffe doesn't do too badly and does hold the marathon world record for women (and a white female Russian is second). Kenya produces some fine long distance athletes for sure, but it is complicated with their VO2 max when training, running economy etc all playing a role. Genes can matter of course (slender frames etc) but when you can win one middle tier race abroad and it is equivalent to 20 years salary you can see the draw.

There is access these days if someone really wants it. I mean, why not get on the soapbox that there are not privately educated dart players?? There will be certain professions or sports people do which attract or put off sexes, racial groups, upper/middle/lower classes but if someone is determined enough then they can and will have the opportunity.

Living in Cambridge I see rowing a lot but appreciate that most places dont have the setup for that, and as you need to pretty much be a uni student then of course you will probably be white and middle/upper class to attend Cambridge but thats not to say a black lad from a single parent family in Brixton cant become the next Redgrave? Look at Alan Sugar, who made it from a working class family, or John Major who grew up on a council estate? Look at the sacrifices Rebecca Adlingtons family for example made to help her train, many parents will not do that so it is also down to the parents in many ways.

Thats life is an argument. I bet you that the Ethiopian runners do not come from the camps featured on the appeal programs and come from the more privileged (feel free to prove me wrong though),