The great TP election thread

[Nikon_Nick]

look on the brightside nick, if we get a govt of steve's choosing we'll be looking at 30 glorious years of dictatorship (someone round here has actually been writing that on the ukip billboards) so we won't have to worry about voting , or that tedious freedom thing either

...so less arguments then? That would be boring

 

[big soft moose]

...so less arguments then? That would be boring

well there'll still be arguments, but they'll be in the detention camps, and amongst the bands of resistance fighters in the hills (or terrorists as the government will probably call them)

 

[OldCarlos]

I watched Farage on tv last night & tbh he's probably the only one who actually answers questions.

Wifey was talking to our local butcher this morning & he thought Farage came across very well & actually agreed with much of UKIP's policies, BUT felt voting for them was a `wasted` vote. He just doesn't want Labour getting in.
I guess others also won't vote for smaller parties for the same reason (keep the Tories out etc)

tbh, it's this `tactical` voting, trying to stop .... X,Y, Z from winning, rather than voting for who you'd like to win, that annoys me. (n)

 

[Llamaman]

Anyone catch the Farage programme last night (on after the main party leader debate)?

He did much better this time - managed to avoid insulting the audience too much and kept his temper.

That said, there was an extraordinary moment where he appeared to be criticising the SNP for still wanting another referendum on independence, but then claimed UKIP wouldn't be redundant if the UK voted to stay in the EU. Cognitive dissonance, or does he just think the electorate are stupid? Unfortunately, no-one in the studio called him out on it.

 

[Trev4]

tbh, it's this `tactical` voting, trying to stop .... X,Y, Z from winning, rather than voting for who you'd like to win, that annoys me. (n)

I've thought about this a lot, and without knowing how others are going to tactically vote, and of course there's no way to know in advance, it becomes a pointless exercise in my opinion, so for that reason, I have decided to simply vote with my heart and ignore the options of trying to keep party X or Y out of office.
I also agree that Farage has accounted well for himself in the various debates and discussions. However, I don't feel he has stressed his points enough, his opposition have painted a picture of him that is too black and too right wing.
Listen to any political discussion among friends in the pub or at work, listen to their fears and complaints about immigration, NHS, housing etc, and many of the things that are discussed are addressed by UKIP. I am against his wanting to leave the EU, but agree with a lot of his policies. Personally I would like to see UKIP with a decent representation in the next government whoever wins.

 

[OldCarlos]

I tend to agree with you Trev.

Interesting though, that The Tories are actually further to the right?

son chose to join labour not the BCP or SWP - how do you account for that ?

its also worth noting that labour are not a left wing party - economically or liberally speaking - see

 

[Llamaman]

tbh, it's this `tactical` voting, trying to stop .... X,Y, Z from winning, rather than voting for who you'd like to win, that annoys me. (n)

Well, some people have more of a strong negative opinion for one party than they have a positive opinion on the others.
Just as an example, some people refuse to vote Tory for... well, any one of a number of historic grievances (valid or otherwise), and although largely unimpressed by the various opposition parties, would rather have any one of them rather than see a Tory majority. And vice versa with people who hate Labour.

I'm sure we'd all prefer it if people voted for positive reasons, but that's not human nature. People tend to rally around a common enemy more readily than around a common cause.

 

[Llamaman]

Scenes you seldom see;
UKIP described as

too black

 

[OldCarlos]

I'm sure we'd all prefer it if people voted for positive reasons, but that's not human nature. People tend to rally around a common enemy more readily than around a common cause.

I don't disagree Andy, but this election seems wide open & none are going to win a majority. I can't remember a more disjointed election where the minority parties will get a larger share of the votes.
I just feel voting with your heart should be the way to go, especially this time.

 

[Trev4]

Scenes you seldom see;
UKIP described as

Ahhh ok, a bad choice of word there, lack of thinking prevailed. I think you understand what I meant though

 

[SFTPhotography]

I tend to agree with you Trev.

Interesting though, that The Tories are actually further to the right?

Yes, in terms of personal taxation vs public spending/welfare and economy yes. In terms of society and immigration, no as they are rather left wing.

I would class UKIP as a centralist party politically and calling for a merit based immigration system is hardly "right wing".

 

[Llamaman]

I don't disagree Andy, but this election seems wide open & none are going to win a majority. I can't remember a more disjointed election where the minority parties will get a larger share of the votes.
I just feel voting with your heart should be the way to go, especially this time.

I agree, and it's one of the reasons I'm a strong advocate of electoral reform. FPTP encourages negative campaigns and tactical voting. A more progressive system, such as PR, would force parties to go out and win votes on their own merits, rather than simply try and pick off their nearest rival in any given seat.

 

[OldCarlos]

 

[Llamaman]

I would class UKIP as a centralist party politically and calling for a merit based immigration system is hardly "right wing".

UKIP can't quite make up their mind where they want to be.
In the past they've advocated a flat tax rate, abolition of workers' rights and a scrapping of the NHS. These are right-wing policies.
However, they've now lurched off towards the centre - Farage has done a volte face on the NHS (quietly kicking Nuttall under the table 'cos he keeps going off-message about this).
The last time I checked their website in any detail (during the European elections), they were claiming to be libertarian, which is generally ultra-right wing, sell-your-granny free-market stuff - I assume they've removed this now, as such a claim is completely incompatible with supporting a behemoth of a state health service.

It's a remarkable change that eclipses even the SNP turning from the Tartan Tories into a party even Ed Miliband considers too left-leaning.

 

[SFTPhotography]

I favoured the libertarian UKIP message myself, but they would twig these were unellectionable messages so have toned it down. The SNP swung left, as they have realised very left wing politics is what gets voters happy up here, generally.

You have to judge a party on what it says in the here and now, the UKIP message is not a right wing one

 

[SFTPhotography]

look on the brightside nick, if we get a govt of steve's choosing we'll be looking at 30 glorious years of dictatorship (someone round here has actually been writing that on the ukip billboards) so we won't have to worry about voting , or that tedious freedom thing either

Will you please point me in a direction that states I am anti democracy and pro dictatorship?Preferably a post I've made and not your disillusion histrionics

...errrm...Dogs rule!!

And it was going so well....

 

[Llamaman]

You have to judge a party on what it says in the here and now, the UKIP message is not a right wing one

Key UKIP tax policies;

• Raising the personal allowance = tax cut
• Raising 40p threshold = tax cut
• Scrapping 45p rate = tax cut
• Abolish inheritance tax = tax cut

Sounds pretty right-wing to me.

Oh, and scrapping the international aid budget to spend more on defense isn't exactly the preserve of the lentil-botherers either.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Key UKIP tax policies;

• Raising the personal allowance = tax cut
• Raising 40p threshold = tax cut
• Scrapping 45p rate = tax cut
• Abolish inheritance tax = tax cut

Sounds pretty right-wing to me.

Oh, and scrapping the international aid budget to spend more on defense isn't exactly the preserve of the lentil-botherers either.

Whats wrong with letting people keeping more of what they have suddenly right wing? The very existence of the 40p band and IHT is very left wing.

These are all fair and sensible politics. I agree with spending nothing on international aid but more on defence. This is centralist stuff, not EDL lynch mob stuff.

 

[big soft moose]

Will you please point me in a direction that states I am anti democracy and pro dictatorship?Preferably a post I've made and not your disillusion histrionics
....

well theres the post where you state that you werent joking when you suggested torpedoing boats full of imigrants and machine gunning them in the water... that kind of thing isn't generally the action of a democratic government

 

[Llamaman]

Whats wrong with letting people keeping more of what they have suddenly right wing? The very existence of the 40p band and IHT is very left wing.
These are all fair and sensible politics. I agree with spending nothing on international aid but more on defence. This is centralist stuff, not EDL lynch mob stuff.

Where did I say there was anything wrong with it? I was merely pointing out it was right wing. Tax cuts = smaller state = right wing.

And for what's it worth, I was not equating those policies with EDL/BNP. I use the terms left- and right-wing for economic policies. EDL/BNP tend to be quite left-wing economically. The use of the term "right-wing" to describe extreme racist/authoriarian parties is incorrect.

 

[big soft moose]

Key UKIP tax policies;

• Raising the personal allowance = tax cut
• Raising 40p threshold = tax cut
• Scrapping 45p rate = tax cut
• Abolish inheritance tax = tax cut

Sounds pretty right-wing to me.

Oh, and scrapping the international aid budget to spend more on defense isn't exactly the preserve of the lentil-botherers either.

ukip are extremly right wing (though not quite as much as the conservatives) - noting the posts earlier on about left and right wing being about how much you believe in state interference in economics, rather than how authoritarian / libertarain you are

if you consult the political compass graph, steves suggested policies put him about equal with ukip on right to left but further up the authoritarian axis (vis machine gunning imigrants, pro death penalty for assorted crimes and so forth)

interestingly my stance puts me about level with conservatives on authoritarianism but only moderately right of centre on economics

graph for those that CBA to go looking for it

 

[SFTPhotography]

well theres the post where you state that you werent joking when you suggested torpedoing boats full of imigrants and machine gunning them in the water... that kind of thing isn't generally the action of a democratic government

Says who? You. We need to defend our country from invasion IMHO. A democratically elected government can do this.

That graph is dillusional, the SNP are very left wing

 

[big soft moose]

Says who? You. We need to defend our country from invasion IMHO. A democratically elected government can do this.

A democratically elected government can't (at least not if it wants to remain in power) breach the UN convention on human rights, imigration isnt an invasion (and thinking it is is another indicator of how authoritarian minded you are) , but even in war torpedoing ships full of unarmed cvillians and then machine gunning them in the water would be a war crime.

If David Cameron for example tried to order such a policy it would never get through parliment - and even if it did the Queen could still order the armed forces not to obey (which would cause the government to fall) - and if by some fluke such a policy was carried out the government concerned would become an international pariah (which would also cause them to fall)

I can never decide whether you are joking, trolling, or if you are serious - if its genuinely the latter you ought to seek help for your sociopathic personality disorder

from the UN declaration on human rights

Article 13.

• (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
• (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

• (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
• (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

from here http://www.un.org/en/sections/what-we-do/protect-human-rights/index.html

 

[big soft moose]

That graph is dillusional, the SNP are very left wing

in what way are they very left wing ?

 

[SFTPhotography]

in what way are they very left wing ?

Extreme levels of taxation.

 

[Dave *]

Says who? You. We need to defend our country from invasion IMHO. A democratically elected government can do this.

Do you really believe the UK armed forces aren't capable of defending the UK?

As a matter of interest, who do you believe is going to invade?

 

[SFTPhotography]

A democratically elected government can't (at least not if it wants to remain in power) breach the UN convention on human rights, imigration isnt an invasion (and thinking it is is another indicator of how authoritarian minded you are) , but even in war torpedoing ships full of unarmed cvillians and then machine gunning them in the water would be a war crime.

If David Cameron for example tried to order such a policy it would never get through parliment - and even if it did the Queen could still order the armed forces not to obey (which would cause the government to fall) - and if by some fluke such a policy was carried out the government concerned would become an international pariah (which would also cause them to fall)

I can never decide whether you are joking, trolling, or if you are serious - if its genuinely the latter you ought to seek help for your sociopathic personality disorder

from the UN declaration on human rights

from here http://www.un.org/en/sections/what-we-do/protect-human-rights/index.html

Hmm. Is it immigration though, they are trying to avoid being detected. Why then have armed gaurds at the border. At the very least the navy should be sat off the zones these boats are coming from, intercepting them and sending them back.

Are you a qualified physiologist too?

 

[SFTPhotography]

As a matter of interest, who do you believe is going to invade?

Boat loads of "migrants".

 

[big soft moose]

Extreme levels of taxation.

as i thought you don't understand the graph - wanting to tax anyone over 100k at 50% isnt extremly left wing , its just left of centre which is where the SNP are

Extremly left wing is where you nationalise absolutely everything, and implement a command economic model - pretty much like Stalin did. (its nearly always an abject failure which is why it doesnt happen much (even communist china is allowing some freemarket operations), and why when it does the state usually lies about its economic well being

 

[big soft moose]

Hmm. Is it immigration though, they are trying to avoid being detected. Why then have armed gaurds at the border. At the very least the navy should be sat off the zones these boats are coming from, intercepting them and sending them back.

see i could support that policy - except that its not really an RN job since they are in the med andprincipally headed for greece or italy - thats a long way fromthinking that wholsale slaughter of unarmed civilans is a viable option

Are you a qualified physiologist too?

nope - but you don't need to be to recognise the inability to empathise in your posts (assuming of course that you are serious)

 

[OldCarlos]

...interestingly my stance puts me about level with conservatives on authoritarianism but only moderately right of centre on economics

So Labour then?


I think part of the Left-Centre-Right problem in discussions depend on what issues are being discussed. Financial, Social, ...etc. & the individuals perceptions.

 

[SFTPhotography]

nope - but you don't need to be to recognise the inability to empathise in your posts (assuming of course that you are serious)

Do these people empathise with us, or out for as much as they can get from us?

 

[SFTPhotography]

So Labour then?


I think part of the Left-Centre-Right problem in discussions depend on what issues are being discussed. Financial, Social, ...etc. & the individuals perceptions.

Labour are left wing, their big government, social and fiscal policies sit within a medium=central left

 

[big soft moose]

So Labour then?


I think part of the Left-Centre-Right problem in discussions depend on what issues are being discussed. Financial, Social, ...etc. & the individuals perceptions.

pretty much - except that i think milliband is a knob, our local candidate a larger one, and that their policies don't add up - and it would be a cold day in hell before i voted for them

the biggest problem in left/right discussions is people conflating authoritarian with right and libertarian with left - this sort of thinking runs into problems with say communist russia which was ver left wing but also highly authoritarian

 

[big soft moose]

Labour are left wing, their big government, social and fiscal policies sit within a medium=central left

except that they arent and they don't - you'd be right about 'old labour' of the sort typified by say arthur scargill - but new labour , blairite labour are essentially a centre right party on economics and moderately authoritarian

this also from political compass shows how uk parties have shifted over time (ukip arent included on this as they only bacame a serious player recently)

 

[OldCarlos]

Labour are left wing, their big government, social and fiscal policies sit within a medium=central left

In my eyes too, I agree, but was referring to the graph that Pete put up.

 

[Gaz J]

There already is postal voting for the CBA crowd who don't want to go to a polling station.

I voted last week...

Just for info. The CBA crowd are made up people that are doing jobs that don't allow them to get to polling stations. I'm in the CBA camp but you might want to have a little think before you put everyone in that group.

 

[OldCarlos]

pretty much - except that i think milliband is a knob, our local candidate a larger one, and that their policies don't add up - and it would be a cold day in hell before i voted for them

the biggest problem in left/right discussions is people conflating authoritarian with right and libertarian with left - this sort of thinking runs into problems with say communist russia which was ver left wing but also highly authoritarian

I agree with you.

All this left/right crap doesn't help in the real world & IMHO is a smokescreen which tends to get folk in a tizzy with their `allegiances`, which some parties rely on.
I wish folk would just vote for the policies.

tbh I wish all the policies could be published in a simple list form, anonymously numbered 1,2,3,4,5,5....., a month before the election date for folk to study & decide............then at the polling station the voting paper can have the party name next to the numbers!

 

[Dave *]

Just for info. The CBA crowd are made up people that are doing jobs that don't allow them to get to polling stations. I'm in the CBA camp but you might want to have a little think before you put everyone in that group.

If you read my post you'll see I put myself in the group, I normally can't be bothered to find time, and to go after work just seems a hassle.

Postal vote forms arrive, place X, stick it back into the envelope and drop it into a posting box.

No effort required .

 

[Llamaman]

I wish folk would just vote for the policies.

tbh I wish all the policies could be published in a simple list form, anonymously numbered 1,2,3,4,5,5....., a month before the election date for folk to study & decide............then at the polling station the voting paper can have the party name next to the numbers!

Not a bad idea - there's already a website that does that.