The great TP election thread

BBR said:
There were 1.187m people employed in NHS in Sept 2014 of which 623k were clinically qualified. That is only 52%. The largest organisation I have worked in had 6500 FTE in the UK of which less than 5% were 'head office' or 'support' staff. I know you cannot directly compare the NHS with any other business organisation but I would bet, based on those numbers, there is a huge amount of cutting that can be done without affecting the front line.
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Neither you or I have any real idea of how the NHS is staffed so lets not get into that. :)
 
BBR said:
I don't agree. Power has gone to the EU. Its our money that's gone to the largest corporations!
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If you believe that, then that's fine, I know I can't convince you otherwise.
 
BBR said:
There were 1.187m people employed in NHS in Sept 2014 of which 623k were clinically qualified. That is only 52%. The largest organisation I have worked in had 6500 FTE in the UK of which less than 5% were 'head office' or 'support' staff. I know you cannot directly compare the NHS with any other business organisation but I would bet, based on those numbers, there is a huge amount of cutting that can be done without affecting the front line.
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Whilst I've got some sympathy for that comparison, I also think it has become hard to be straight to the point like that. It has grown way too big in my opinion to be clear and fully comprehensive of all its functions and responsibilities. It is too diverse and widespread. Hence comparisons to elsewhere in the world is actually rather hard to make.
 
cambsno said:
Not clegg, I have been pretty impressed with him
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I think you can tell that I have no faith in any of the self serving basts. And thats exactly what I tell the "door knockers"
 
Cobra said:
I think you can tell that I have no faith in any of the self serving basts. And thats exactly what I tell the "door knockers"
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But what if she's gorgeous and wears leather? :p

Unfortunately we don't get any door knockers. Bit of a shame really.
 
dejongj said:
But what if she's gorgeous and wears leather? :p

Unfortunately we don't get any door knockers. Bit of a shame really.
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Then I'll promise her the world but still not vote for her :D to be fair, they soon get the message, and only ever knock the once :D
 
Just seen a news article with Blair and his Mrs......[PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] the years have not been good to them......just saying....not really election issues but there you go.....
 
I just noticed that the SNP, despite last week supporting the coalition, this week promises labour to help them kick the tories out. And then Tony Blair gets wheeled out as well.

Well, well. The lefty propaganda machine is steaming up.
 
Of course Tony Blair wants to stay in Europe, he'd loose his job as an MEP ! It's all about self-interest again.
 
archangel said:
Just seen a news article with Blair and his Mrs......f*** the years have not been good to them......just saying....not really election issues but there you go.....
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I haven't seen them, but surely Cherie cant have become even worse looking. That is just impossible. Its got to be impossible. Is it?
 
Cobra said:
I think you can tell that I have no faith in any of the self serving basts. And thats exactly what I tell the "door knockers"
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When you answer the door you should be gushing and say something like... "Please, please, come in. I insist that you come in. I don't get visitors since all those nasty allegations a few years ago and I don't know why people round here are so hostile, the police said at the time they couldn't prove anything and there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution."
 
Phil V said:
Most people estimate about 25% of benefit is claimed fraudulently, it's less than 1%
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For someone who is generally cynical about this government, Phil, you seem surprisingly keen to accept their statistics in this area.

The way I see it, the "official" figures on benefit fraud are produced by civil servants who work in the DWP and other departments responsible for paying benefits. So they have a huge self interest in not looking too hard into fraud, because large numbers will inevitably make them look bad. Obviously their goal is to come up with numbers which are large enough to be plausible, but small enough to be tolerable. And judging by the number of people who say that benefit fraud shouldn't be a priority compared with, say, tax evasion, they've judged it about right.

But what is the true level? I don't know, you don't know, nobody know. This website makes a good argument that the total is £5 billion or more, rather than the £1.2 billion official figure. I don't know who's behind that website or what their agenda is, so I should stress that I'm disinclined to trust it too far. But they point out that many indirect ways of estimating benefit fraud (e.g. the test study which showed that a large number of people would rather sign off jobseeker's allowance than turn up for unpaid work) come up with significantly higher estimates.
 
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StewartR said:
For someone who is generally cynical about this government, Phil, you seem surprisingly keen to accept their statistics in this area.

The way I see it, the "official" figures on benefit fraud are produced by civil servants who work in the DWP and other departments responsible for paying benefits. So they have a huge self interest in not looking too hard into fraud, because large numbers will inevitably make them look bad. Obviously their goal is to come up with numbers which are large enough to be plausible, but small enough to be tolerable. And judging by the number of people who say that benefit fraud shouldn't be a priority compared with, say, tax evasion, they've judged it about right.

But what is the true level? I don't know, you don't know, nobody know. This website makes a good argument that the total is £5 billion or more, rather than the £1.2 billion official figure. I don't know who's behind that website or what their agenda is, so I should stress that I'm disinclined to trust it too far. But they point out that many indirect ways of estimating benefit fraud (e.g. the test study which showed that a large number of people would rather sign off jobseeker's allowance than turn up for unpaid work) come up with significantly higher estimates.
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Let's say I know a bit more than the average member when it comes to benefits / benefit fraud etc. I'll bow to your better judgement when it comes to lens performance ;)
 
It is still less than what non-doms contribute to our covers and yet more than what the bottom 25% contribute.

Just some food for thought ;)
 
StewartR said:
For someone who is generally cynical about this government, Phil, you seem surprisingly keen to accept their statistics in this area.

The way I see it, the "official" figures on benefit fraud are produced by civil servants who work in the DWP and other departments responsible for paying benefits. So they have a huge self interest in not looking too hard into fraud, because large numbers will inevitably make them look bad. Obviously their goal is to come up with numbers which are large enough to be plausible, but small enough to be tolerable. And judging by the number of people who say that benefit fraud shouldn't be a priority compared with, say, tax evasion, they've judged it about right.

But what is the true level? I don't know, you don't know, nobody know. This website makes a good argument that the total is £5 billion or more, rather than the £1.2 billion official figure. I don't know who's behind that website or what their agenda is, so I should stress that I'm disinclined to trust it too far. But they point out that many indirect ways of estimating benefit fraud (e.g. the test study which showed that a large number of people would rather sign off jobseeker's allowance than turn up for unpaid work) come up with significantly higher estimates.
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Assuming that websites correct, and I don't think it makes anything like a compelling argument. Then that makes what slightly under 5% of the benefits bill.


Still a lot of money, but not the high % that many think it is. And still only a fraction of the amount lost by other types of fraud. Explain why those other frauds shouldn't be a priority
 
Phil V said:
Let's say I know a bit more than the average member when it comes to benefits / benefit fraud etc. I'll bow to your better judgement when it comes to lens performance ;)
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Unless you've got another job besides your photography business, I really really hope you were just doing forum talk with a bluff. If not, someone close to you might be in a bit of bother ;)
 
dejongj said:
Unless you've got another job besides your photography business, I really really hope you were just doing forum talk with a bluff. If not, someone close to you might be in a bit of bother ;)
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Really? :thinking:
I mean ... Really? :thinking:

How many times have I said I'm a full time photographer?

How many times have I mentioned that I've worked in the public sector and the private sector and been self employed?

And you really decided that was a wise conclusion to draw?

OK, have it your way - I'm err.... No. You're the crappiest detective in the history of forum detectives.

In fact there may even be posts where I have stated that I have worked in benefit fraud in the past. Also that I have very close links with some tax inspectors (now retired), no state secrets, no 'forum bluff', just simple truths.
Should we get the thread back on track now.:)
 
Past doesn't equal the present knowledge, things move on very quickly. And retirement doesn't relinquish obligations under the official secrets act either.

Happy to focus on the election if you decide to stop waving an (old?) willy...
 
dejongj said:
Past doesn't equal the present knowledge, things move on very quickly. And retirement doesn't relinquish obligations under the official secrets act either.

Happy to focus on the election if you decide to stop waving an (old?) willy...
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Would you stop looking for the conspiracy, the loopholes and the faults, its tiresome.
Or you could spend the evening looking for exactly which parts of the official secrets act I've breached by saying I used to work in Benefit Fraud.
Jeez, we've serving police officers here, they've told us they're still serving. Lets send MI5 round. :ROFLMAO:
 
woof woof said:
When you answer the door you should be gushing and say something like... "Please, please, come in. I insist that you come in. I don't get visitors since all those nasty allegations a few years ago and I don't know why people round here are so hostile, the police said at the time they couldn't prove anything and there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution."
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Sideways off track but still kinda relevant,
I had a couple of JW's knock on the door, recently, We'd like to talk to you, the younger one started,
I said hold it right there, ...... I invited them in, gave them tea and biscuits, and said OK,
so what would you like to talk about?

After a few seconds of them staring at each other in silence, the older one piped up and said,
f*** knows, we've never got this far before.
 
Cobra said:
Sideways off track but still kinda relevant,
I had a couple of JW's knock on the door, recently, We'd like to talk to you, the younger one started,
I said hold it right there, ...... I invited them in, gave them tea and biscuits, and said OK,
so what would you like to talk about?

After a few seconds of them staring at each other in silence, the older one piped up and said,
f*** knows, we've never got this far before.
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:D

We tend not to get them round my way, maybe it's too rough for them :D I do remember some coming once and I got chatting and after a while they said something like "We seem to be agreeing over everything. Have you ever thought about joining?" I was tempted to say something stupid (I usually do) but as there are people with genuine convictions and trying to do good I was very proper and polite instead. Next time though...
 
I don't like the tone of millipedes latest attack on the rich as it seems to be an attack on the rich because they're rich. That doesn't sit well with me. I think that if crucifying non doms at dawn before the baying public is in the public interest (and by that I mean money wise) then fair enough and I'll hand him the hammer and nails but if the public executions are just for hated of foreigners (or those claiming to be) with money then I think that millipede should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.

Hate rich foreigners and you're a spoon full of hate or another grubby vote grabbing attempt away from picking on some other group and that's not what I expect from someone purporting to be a socialist.
 
Don't worry, Fallon's wasted no time getting in a personal attack on Miliband.
This election is going to be brutal, nasty and none the better for it.
 
Llamaman said:
Don't worry, Fallon's wasted no time getting in a personal attack on Miliband.
This election is going to be brutal, nasty and none the better for it.
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Legend has it that Jim Bowie, when accused of cheating, (at cards) pushed all the furniture to one side, threw his knife of the floor, and the last man standing took the "spoils"

Now that sounds like a plan to me ;)
 
StewartR said:
@Phil V: You've moved the goal posts, but you're still wrong.

It's a simple and undeniable fact that people who earn between £6k and £10k used to pay income tax 5 years ago, and now they don't. That's a good thing for them; the vast majority of sane individuals would agree that it's good for society; and without getting into heavy analysis it's almost certainly good for the economy. Can we at least agree on that?
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And yet working people are worse off now than in 2010 despite this tax windfall
 
jakeblu said:
There is no dispute even from the tories that working people are worse off than 5 years ago

http://rt.com/uk/237629-uk-living-standards-report/
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Actually there *is* dispute from the Tories. Did you read the article to which you linked? It says:
Chancellor George Osborne told Reuters: “Britain is fundamentally in a better position than it was five years ago.”
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Now I'm not trying to argue whether Osborne is right or wrong. Just pointing out that the spin you put on it was unwarranted and unhelpful.
 
StewartR said:
Actually there *is* dispute from the Tories. Did you read the article to which you linked? It says:

Now I'm not trying to argue whether Osborne is right or wrong. Just pointing out that the spin you put on it was unwarranted and unhelpful.
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Do you think Osborne was referring to people in that report, or referring to the economy as a whole. It's not clear from that quote? Which is probably what he intended being a politician
 
the price of fuel has been the problem for the last few years. that is now lower and as a result costs are falling, which has a knock on effect all over.
 
StewartR said:
Actually there *is* dispute from the Tories. Did you read the article to which you linked? It says:

Now I'm not trying to argue whether Osborne is right or wrong. Just pointing out that the spin you put on it was unwarranted and unhelpful.
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Yes, I did read the article did you?

Theres no spin on my part, working people are worse off than they were in 2010. The tories dont dispute that working people are worse off they cant the figures speak for themsleves, they just try to obfuscate the situation by refering to median incomes not working ones.
 
jakeblu said:
Yes, I did read the article did you?

Theres no spin on my part, working people are worse off than they were in 2010. The tories dont dispute that working people are worse off they cant the figures speak for themsleves, they just try to obfuscate the situation by refering to median incomes not working ones.
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Seeing as we were plunged into the worst recession for many years around 2009, is it a surprise that the next few years were tough? Surely in a recession things do go backwards... and in this case it took while to come out and back into a better way economically. IIRC this week there was something on the radio about us not being back to 2010 levels?

Whoever had been in power 2010 till now, we would have seen people becoming worse off, unless it was a bury head in sand in moment in which case we would be like greece!
 
Matt said:
the price of fuel has been the problem for the last few years. that is now lower and as a result costs are falling, which has a knock on effect all over.
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Does no one else remember that it was down to circa 105p per litre not so long ago, and now its rising almost week on week, its circa 116p now (petrol)
 
Cobra said:
Does no one else remember that it was down to circa 105p per litre not so long ago, and now its rising almost week on week, its circa 116p now (petrol)
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Yeah :mad:

I also remember the price was widely tipped/expected to drop to £1. :(
 
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