The great TP election thread

No Alan you read right,no matter who gets in this term we are in for a rough ride still.
 
It's alright for any party not in power to make all these promises but once they get in and find the pot empty where are the going to get the money to carry out the promises they made?

If there is no money cuts to the public funded sector need to made and taxes need to go up, we don't have any other way of making money.

I think all MPs should be on zero hours contracts, that would save the UK economy a few quid.
 
woof woof said:
If the Greens won... Actually I don't want to even think about it.
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Cars banned Wind turbines everywhere etc etc what's not to like? :D

Besides you said you were buggering off to Thailand, ... We'd better be quick, before air travels banned too :D
 
cowboy said:
I think all MPs should be on zero hours contracts, .
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Now that is a bloody god idea, they may even turn up for the odd debate, in Westminster occasionally.

They may even be a load of MP's turn at at the same time and that would make it a mass debate...
Oh wait a minute ;)
 
I've never thought of putting them on zero hours but I have thought it'd be a wake up call if...

- Parliament was moved to an out of town industrial estate up North.
- MP's were banned from using cars and had to use public transport.
- They had to clock on and off. If they clocked in late or off early twice in a month they'd attend a disciplinary hearing, three and they'd be sacked.

I used to work on an out of town ind. est. and staff did indeed have to attend a disciplinary hearing if they were late clocking on twice in a month. Having a car, a decent wage and being management this lot didn't affect me but I did wonder at the stress those who couldn't afford a car but desperately needed the job went through. I think a dose of that sort of reality would be great for all our MP's.
 
n0chex said:
No Alan you read right,no matter who gets in this term we are in for a rough ride still.
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I do worry for the future. I'm pretty sure I'll be ok no matter what and although I don't have children I still worry what legacy we're handing down.
 
cowboy said:
It's alright for any party not in power to make all these promises but once they get in and find the pot empty where are the going to get the money to carry out the promises they made?

If there is no money cuts to the public funded sector need to made and taxes need to go up, we don't have any other way of making money.

.
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Isn't that true of every election ever?


If you wanted more tax intake you could kickstart the economy a bit :) that way more tax is paid. Rather then cut everything
 
How do we kickstart the economy though?

We can't really carry on creating jobs in the public sector because they are paid by the taxpayer so we would need to raise more money to pay the additional wages.

We no longer have a manufacturing base as previous governments decided we should all be middle management, insurance salespeople, bankers, etc and we could buy everything we need from abroad.
 
cowboy said:
How do we kickstart the economy though?

We can't really carry on creating jobs in the public sector because they are paid by the taxpayer so we would need to raise more money to pay the additional wages.

We no longer have a manufacturing base as previous governments decided we should all be middle management, insurance salespeople, bankers, etc and we could buy everything we need from abroad.
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You simply provide a good economic foundation as we have now. Confidence is strong so businesses look to invest which leads to jobs. It's like having a good defence in football. If u don't have that it's tough!
 
cowboy said:
...
I think all MPs should be on zero hours contracts, that would save the UK economy a few quid.
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It'd be nice if they got an attendance fee rather than a salary, then the fringe party nutters we elect as MEPs would have to do something instead of just spouting off about what's wrong with the system (that they're happy to draw a salary from).
 
boyfalldown said:
If you wanted more tax intake you could kickstart the economy a bit :) that way more tax is paid. Rather then cut everything
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I can see both sides of that, but its a bit of a catch 22.
Maybe they should start by getting the multi nationals that use loop holes in the system, to legally, avoid, (or is it evade? I can never remember) paying tax.
That'd soon free up a few quid to kick start the economy, if that is the governments real wish, sometimes I do wonder though ;)

And as for these "non-doms" that seem to be using the UK as a tax haven, that is a real joke.
Yes I know the quoted figures are something around £60,000 - £90,000 pa as a "fee" but that really is b****r all to a multi millionaire,
and they probably claim that back somehow or other too ;)
 
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cowboy said:
How do we kickstart the economy though?

We can't really carry on creating jobs in the public sector because they are paid by the taxpayer so we would need to raise more money to pay the additional wages.

We no longer have a manufacturing base as previous governments decided we should all be middle management, insurance salespeople, bankers, etc and we could buy everything we need from abroad.
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It's a fact that the strongest periods in our recent economic history have been kick started with public spending.
If the govt pays someone £10k, about half of it comes straight back via direct and indirect taxation, the rest (as it's a low income) gets spent and boosts other aspects of the local economy. So that £10k which pays for a result from the employee actually does a lot for it's money.
Give £10k in lower taxes to a millionaire and it'll be 'invested' probably abroad with no benefit to the local economy and for no immediate productivity gain for them either.
But what this govt did to 'kick start' the economy was to give money to the banks in the hope they'd lend it to business, but that never happened, the banks just invested it in safe foreign options because the economy was flaky. That's why we failed to benefit from the fact we were in a potentially much stronger position than the eurozone.
 
the problem with that though phil, is that when the economy runs off the rails, you have a lot of people you cant afford to pay. Ultimately the country needs to run like a business, you cant just make up jobs for people that dont really exist. The UK has to have something to sell the rest of the world, we need to tak e along hard look at what we can do that others cant and make that pay. manufacturing was one of those areas, a buy British campaign would help boost manufacturing and help push it forward.
 
Matt said:
a buy British campaign would help boost manufacturing and help push it forward.
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In the far dark depths of my mind that rung a small bell,
After a brief chat with my mate Wiki ...
:whistling:

I'm Backing Britain was a brief patriotic campaign, which flourished in early 1968, aimed at boosting the British economy. The campaign started spontaneously when five Surbiton secretaries volunteered to work an extra half an hour each day without pay in order to boost productivity, and urged others to do the same. This invitation received an enormous response and a campaign took off spectacularly, becoming a nationwide movement within a week. Trade unions were suspicious of, and some directly opposed to, the campaign as an attempt to extend working hours surreptitiously, and to hide inefficiency by management.

The campaign received official endorsement by the Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, but found being perceived as Government-endorsed was double-edged. The Union Flag logo encouraged by the campaign became highly visible on the high streets, and attempts were made to take over the campaign by Robert Maxwell who wanted to change its focus into an appeal to 'Buy British'; however the campaign's own t-shirts were made in Portugal. After a few months without any noticeable effect on individual companies or the economy generally, interest flagged amid much embarrassment about some of the ways in which the campaign had been pursued and supported. It has come to be regarded as an iconic example of a failed attempt to transform British economic prospects.
 
Phil V said:
It's a fact that the strongest periods in our recent economic history have been kick started with public spending.
If the govt pays someone £10k, about half of it comes straight back via direct and indirect taxation, the rest (as it's a low income) gets spent and boosts other aspects of the local economy. So that £10k which pays for a result from the employee actually does a lot for it's money.
Give £10k in lower taxes to a millionaire and it'll be 'invested' probably abroad with no benefit to the local economy and for no immediate productivity gain for them either.
But what this govt did to 'kick start' the economy was to give money to the banks in the hope they'd lend it to business, but that never happened, the banks just invested it in safe foreign options because the economy was flaky. That's why we failed to benefit from the fact we were in a potentially much stronger position than the eurozone.
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But there are not many economies in as strong position as ours so some of the policy is working.

Not sure what the millionaires have to do with it. We all benefit from tax cuts, although invariably the pound a month you get means nothing.

I was against the 45p removal as it sent the wrong message out but iirc some people thought that it would have a positive effect in tax revenues.
 
cowboy said:
How do we kickstart the economy though?

We can't really carry on creating jobs in the public sector because they are paid by the taxpayer so we would need to raise more money to pay the additional wages.

We no longer have a manufacturing base as previous governments decided we should all be middle management, insurance salespeople, bankers, etc and we could buy everything we need from abroad.
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I'm not advocating creating public sector jobs for the sake of it, equally cutting for the sake of cutting leads to an environment with no confidence and little creation of jobs as we've seen over the course of the last parliament. Before someone quotes 2m new jobs remind me what % minimum wage, zero hours or part time they are?
 
cambsno said:
But there are not many economies in as strong position as ours so some of the policy is working.

Not sure what the millionaires have to do with it. We all benefit from tax cuts, although invariably the pound a month you get means nothing.

I was against the 45p removal as it sent the wrong message out but iirc some people thought that it would have a positive effect in tax revenues.
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We had started to climb out of recession before the last election, the recovery actually slowed down after the election, it could be argued that the economy is growing in spite of rather than as a result of the current economic policies. Of course peoples views on this will depend greatly on what papers they read, news programs they watch, party they feel an affinity to etc.
We don't all benefit from tax cuts that are only aimed at high earners.
 
cowboy said:
I think all MPs should be on zero hours contracts, that would save the UK economy a few quid.
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Best comment on the thread if you ask me and you get my vote.
 
cambsno said:
But there are not many economies in as strong position as ours so some of the policy is working.

.
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There was an interesting piece I read the other day that said 2/3 of economists thought current policies had nothing to do with the position we're in now, it would have happened anyway. And this government has fallen far short of its claims ( no deficit by 2015 remember?)
 
have you a link to that, i'd be interested in reading it
 
A few points mentioned make me a little nervous and may be worth Googling and further reading, but on the other hand there's little that people like us can do about these things... but every vote may count.

Somewhere on the TV or radio within the last couple of days I'm sure someone said that the UK's debt interest payments are £1bn per week. I think I also remember hearing that our borrowing is 5% of GDP or something in the region of.

Anyway. 5% doesn't seem that bad (but it can't go on forever IMVHO) and £1bn doesn't seem that much in the great scheme of things (but it can't go on... ditto... etc....) but they've all made a big play of the NHS recently and the figure of £8bn extra has been mentioned and that brings the question of debt and repayments back into my mind as we're being told that £8bn extra could be heading into the NHS but that commitment is under fire as a vote grabbing unfunded uncosted and pie in the sky figure and yet it's ONLY 8 weeks interest payments out of £52bn a year.

My own little possibly deluded view is that the UK should get it's finances in order PDQ and once that's done that £1bn a week or £52bn a year could then be spent making sure that 5 year olds can have gender reassignment treatment, the over weight can have gastric bands and the elderly wont have to sit in peepee soaked clothing whilst being ignored in £1,500 a month "care" homes.

So for me the economy and sorting out both the deficit and borrowing come first.

I'm not so sure that we can tax Google and Costa Coffee etc as if we try they'll move to Ireland if they're not already there. I think that we'll just have to bite the bullet and accept that we don't rule the world and just come to an acceptable arrangement with companies we have limited control over.

I'm also not sure what we should be doing with non doms. The figures were quoted in the media recently and Googling may provide them but to summarise... they're a tiny minority in the UK and they pay a disproportionate amount into the coffers. If they were to be taxed to the same levels as the filthy UK rich they may pay more but at the moment they don't and if it looks like they'll be forced to a fair few may just move to France. London will then be a Eurostar ride away and we'll have cut off a nose to spite our face.

Maybe we need to stop thinking along old party and class lines and stop fighting class wars and instead run the country like a responsible business so that we can afford to feed, cloth and house the unproductive and help and heal the ill and infirm and do all of the other nice socialist things that'd make me very happy.
 
woof woof said:
Maybe we need to stop thinking along old party and class lines and stop fighting class wars and instead run the country like a responsible business so that we can afford to feed, cloth and house the unproductive and help and heal the ill and infirm and do all of the other nice socialist things that'd make me very happy.
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Well said.
 
woof woof said:
I'm not so sure that we can tax Google and Costa Coffee etc as if we try they'll move to Ireland if they're not already there.
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I keep hearing that arguement. And its wrong. The likes of google costa etc still make money here and won't stop doing so simply because you crack down and make them pay the taxes they are liable for. Do you really thing costa will just pull all its UK shops?

woof woof said:
Maybe we need to stop thinking along old party and class lines and stop fighting class wars and instead run the country like a responsible business so that we can afford to feed, cloth and house the unproductive and help and heal the ill and infirm and do all of the other nice socialist things that'd make me very happy.
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I do wonder why looking after the sick is socialist? Heaven help you become ill.(though I wouldn't wish it on anyone.)
 
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One thing that is *really* annoying me about this election campaign is the way the parties seem to be making highly specific pledges every day. I'm sure their marketing strategists have told them they need to be in the headlines every day, but it comes across as an unconnected series of topics in micromanagement.

The other day, for example, we had the Conservatives pledging to freeze commuter rail fares, Labour pledging to introduce one-to-one maternity care (whatever that means) in the NHS, and the Liberal Democrats pledging to bring in a bill of rights for personal data online. All worthy stuff I suppose (giving the benefit of the doubt to the maternity care thing), but completely devoid of any context. And by simply pledging to do "X" and then moving on to the next day's unconnected pledge, you never get to hear about "Y" and "Z" which they won't be doing because they'll be depending the money on "X".

Do they really expect to sway people with such small measures? Maybe they do. Political campaigning is the art of bribing people with their own money, and maybe they're just doing this with a lot of micro targeted bribes. Easier and cheaper - well, cheaper anyway - than grand gestures which would affect everybody and which might actually mean something.

I'm really looking forward to May 8th.
 
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StewartR said:
One thing that is *really* annoying me about this election campaign is the way the parties seem to be making highly specific pledges every day. I'm sure their marketing strategists have told them they need to be in the headlines every day, but it comes across as an unconnected series of topics in micromanagement.

The other day, for example, we had the Conservatives pledging to freeze commuter rail fares, Labour pledging to introduce one-to-one maternity care (whatever that means) in the NHS, and the Liberal Democrats pledging to bring in a bill of rights for personal data online. All worthy stuff I suppose (giving the benefit of the doubt to the maternity care thing), but completely devoid of any context. And by simply pledging to do "X" and then moving on to the next day's unconnected pledge, you never get to hear about "Y" and "Z" which they won't be doing because they'll be depending the money on "X".

Do they really expect to sway people with such small measures? Maybe they do. Political campaigning is the art of bribing people with their own money, and maybe they're just doing this with a lot of micro targeted bribes. Easier and cheaper - well, cheaper anyway - than grand gestures which would affect everybody and which might actually mean something.

I'm really looking forward to May 8th.
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I agree with almost all of that. Except I'm not looking forward to the 8th. I suspect however it goes it won't be a happy result
 
boyfalldown said:
I keep hearing that arguement. And its wrong. The likes of google costa etc still make money here and won't stop doing so simply because you crack down and make them pay the taxes they are liable for. Do you really thing costa will just pull all its UK shops?
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I was unaware that there was a tax issue with Costa. They're a UK based company (part of Whitbread which also owns Premier Inn).
 
fabs said:
I was unaware that there was a tax issue with Costa. They're a UK based company (part of Whitbread which also owns Premier Inn).
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I have to admit I hadn't checked. I only mentioned them because the previous poster had named them as an example of companies who'd relocate from the uk
 
StewartR said:
Interesting article on the BBC News today: Doing the maths on a hung parliament. As a (former) mathematician I'm embarrassed that I'd not previously heard of the Banzhaf Power Index, but it's a fascinating tool.
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I like that. My stepson at Uni is in a swing seat if he votes there, whereas his vote at home isn't worth much. I'd be seriously surprised to find our local MP lose his seat ;)
Though he might not get the job he's after.
 
boyfalldown said:
I keep hearing that arguement. And its wrong. The likes of google costa etc still make money here and won't stop doing so simply because you crack down and make them pay the taxes they are liable for. Do you really thing costa will just pull all its UK shops?
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It's more complex than you imply here. The rules are there to be read and at the moment some big companies play a little game and shuffle the pack and suddenly they pay their tax in a lower tax country. I don't think they'll pull their UK shops but do you think the UK can act alone without blowback?

And that brings me back to the worry that it's a class war thing and we really don't mind if we end up poorer just as long was we crucify the rich and the international military/industrial machine.

boyfalldown said:
I do wonder why looking after the sick is socialist? Heaven help you become ill.(though I wouldn't wish it on anyone.)
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Looking after the sick isn't necessarily the preserve of the socialist but it's the main socialist party which has weaponised the NHS. Remember? Or at least that's what they said they wanted to do and it's the crutch they've used for a long time.
 
fabs said:
I was unaware that there was a tax issue with Costa. They're a UK based company (part of Whitbread which also owns Premier Inn).
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I was using Costa as I couldn't remember the name of the other lot, and I still can't :D
 
boyfalldown said:
I have to admit I hadn't checked. I only mentioned them because the previous poster had named them as an example of companies who'd relocate from the uk
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Much of what I say is highly inaccurate or dubious in some other way and I often say things for the fun effect. Sorry, can't help myself.
 
woof woof said:
It's more complex than you imply here. The rules are there to be read and at the moment some big companies play a little game and shuffle the pack and suddenly they pay their tax in a lower tax country. I don't think they'll pull their UK shops but do you think the UK can act alone without blowback?

And that brings me back to the worry that it's a class war thing and we really don't mind if we end up poorer just as long was we crucify the rich and the international military/industrial machine.



Looking after the sick isn't necessarily the preserve of the socialist but it's the main socialist party which has weaponised the NHS. Remember? Or at least that's what they said they wanted to do and it's the crutch they've used for a long time.
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I don't think it's a class war thing. Asking payment of taxes isn't. Assuming they are not punitive. I get there may be some repercussions of forcing companies to pay taxes (shocker) but I think we shouldn't be afraid of those companies who wish to move from the UK and continue contributing nothing.


I'm sure there is already a rule that basically says if something is done purely to avoid tax without any business benefit then you pay tax on it. HMRCseems to be in dispute over an awful lot of cash. But happy to chase small business for a few quid.

By main socialist party do you mean the other major political party in the centre ground?
 
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