The Football Thread - Season 2011/2012 - Part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
dinners said:
I think it is in terms of quality. Simple.

Of course we have the domestic cups and whatever Euro competitions our teams might be in or not in blah blah but that's no measure......
Click to expand...

Well then we'll have to leave it there and agree to disagree. Although how you can only measure a team on potentially only around half the games they play in a season is beyond me.

But I suppose the fact you have done so poorly this season outside of the league is maybe why. We've done well outside the league and average in the league but I still like to include the league in my assessment of our season.
 
Last edited:
Here we go Joe - We missed last week for some reason.

Arsenal v Aston Villa - Arsenal
Chelsea v Tottenham - Chelsea
Bolton v Blackburn - draw
Liverpool v Wigan - 'pool
Norwich v Wolves - Norwich
Sunderland v QPR - Sunderland
Swansea v Everton - Swansea
Stoke v Man City - Man City
West Brom v Newcastle - West Brom
Man U v Fulham - Man U

Fixed it for ya.
 
Last edited:
tiler65 said:
Here we go Joe - We missed last week for some reason.

Chelsea v Tottenham - Chelsea
Bolton v Blackburn - draw
Liverpool v Wigan - 'pool
Norwich v Wolves - Norwich
Sunderland v QPR - Sunderland
Swansea v Everton - Swansea
Stoke v Man City - Man City
West Brom v Newcastle - West Brom
Man U v Fulham - Man U
Click to expand...


Chelsea v Tottenham - Draw
Bolton v Blackburn - Blackburn
Liverpool v Wigan - 'pool
Norwich v Wolves - Norwich
Sunderland v QPR - Draw
Swansea v Everton - Swansea
Stoke v Man City - Man city
West Brom v Newcastle - West Brom
Man U v Fulham - Man U

Also you missed one

Van persie - Aston villa - van persie
 
joescrivens said:
Well then we'll have to leave it there and agree to disagree. Although how you can only measure a team on potentially only around half the games they play in a season is beyond me.

But I suppose the fact you have done so poorly this season outside of the league is maybe why. We've done well outside the league and average in the league but I still like to include the league in my assessment of our season.
Click to expand...

I think what I was trying to say (with far too much Wadworth 6X) was that I've always considered the league (regardless of whether United do well or not elsewhere) to be the only true measure of how teams compare to each other as each of the 20 teams play the same 38 games over the course of the season.

Whilst I don't ignore other competitions - how well Arsenal do for example against a team from Spain or how well Swansea do against a third division team doesn't really tell me if they're any better than Chelsea.
 
Last edited:
dinners said:
I think what I was trying to say (with far too much Wadworth 6X) was that I've always considered the league (regardless of whether United do well or not elsewhere) to be the only true measure of how teams compare to each other as each of the 20 teams play the same 38 games over the course of the season.

Whilst I don't ignore other competitions - how well Arsenal do for example against a team from Spain or how well Swansea do against a third division team doesn't really tell me if they're any better than Chelsea.
Click to expand...

When did we start talking about how the teams compare against each other? I was talking about how the team measures the success of a season. Not a comparison of how they have performed compared to other teams. The success of an individual teams season should be judged on how they have done across all competitions in that season, not just one.
 
joescrivens said:
Van persie - Aston villa - van persie
Click to expand...

:lol: You do realise Arsenal have 16 different goal scorers in the premier league this season which is the joint highest number along with Man U and Everton? Not bad for a one man team eh?
 
joescrivens said:
When did we start talking about how the teams compare against each other?
I was talking about how the team measures the success of a season. Not a comparison of how they have performed compared to other teams. The success of an individual teams season should be judged on how they have done across all competitions in that season, not just one.
Click to expand...

I think it started with you saying that Liverpool are improving. I'd have thought that would be down to results against opposition therefore how you compare to other teams ?

I questioned whether they were progressing and used the league over the last few years to show that they're going backwards whilst you used the Carling Cup to show that they're progressing.

There's no right or wrong answer - the league isn't the only yardstick but it's the only consistent one against which progress can be measured.
 
Last edited:
dinners said:
I think it started with you saying that Liverpool are improving. I'd have thought that would be down to results against opposition therefore how you compare to other teams ?

I questioned whether they were progressing and used the league over the last few years to show that they're going backwards whilst you used the Carling Cup to show that they're progressing.

There's no right or wrong answer - the league isn't the only yardstick but it's the only consistent one against which progress can be measured.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean. Look at our recent seasons

2010/11 = 58 points = 6th
2009/10 = 63 points = 7th

these are the last 2. We'll be finishing in the same area this season 6th or 7th. Our league form has been the same. Thats what I said from the start. But when you look at what else we have done this season with a semi final in the FA Cup and a trophey in the carling cup it is much improved.

So there is progression since the last few seasons.
 
The problem with using Cups as a measure of success, it doesn't take into account how much effort other teams have put into them. If mid league clubs are happy to battle for them while top and bottom league battlers only make half hearted attempts to progress through the rounds, then good on them. Liverpool = cup team :D
 
joescrivens said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Look at our recent seasons

2010/11 = 58 points = 6th
2009/10 = 63 points = 7th

these are the last 2. We'll be finishing in the same area this season 6th or 7th. Our league form has been the same. Thats what I said from the start. But when you look at what else we have done this season with a semi final in the FA Cup and a trophey in the carling cup it is much improved.

So there is progression since the last few seasons.
Click to expand...


In that case, £105.3m well spent by Dalglish :clap: :lol:
 
From the BBC text page:

1706:

To paint the reality of Liverpool's situation this season in facts: today's defeat to Wigan sees them lose two Premier League matches at Anfield in the same calendar month for just the third time, after January 2005 and September 1999. The Reds have won just five of their 15 home league matches so far this season, which is their fewest in the top-flight at this stage since 1953/1954, when they had also won five.
 
fabs said:
BTW, I think you may be optimistic with 6th or 7th. On current form, looking more like 9th.
Click to expand...

:agree:

The odds have shortened on King Kenny going but I think I'll still have a punt. I've never read so much vitriol towards him on the various LFC fora. He might not be sacked but he could well fall on his sword for Queen and club.

A bit trickier is trying to decide on whether Swansea or Everton (or both) will finish above Liverpool.

Did I see that Suarez was trying to "hand of god" the ball into the net again?
 
fabs said:
Joe, I do find it remarkable that you think the Europa League is beneath Liverpool and worthless yet you think they've had a more successful season this year because they won the Carling Cup?

BTW, I think you may be optimistic with 6th or 7th. On current form, looking more like 9th.
Click to expand...

If you read through all my posts you'll see that I detest the carling cup as much as Europa. Well maybe not quite. At least the production is better. But my opinion of the worthiness of a competition holds little merit to the teams actual success. Actually going through and winning the cup does still show progression no matter my opinion of it.

And it's the combination of carling cup and fa cup semi final, not just the carling cup that I was describing.

However losing at home to Wigan. Well, that's got to be the worst result of this season for Liverpool. Have Wigan ever beaten Liverpool before? Let alone at anfield. Very poor show
 
joescrivens said:
If you read through all my posts you'll see that ...
Click to expand...
C'mon Joe, only you are obsessed with this banter enough to go doing that :lol:
Just give up trying to pull a diamond from a pile of crap ... your team/manager/star striker is a joke regardless of how Manchester United (19 Times Winners of the English League) do this year ;)
 
joescrivens said:
If you read through all my posts you'll see that I detest the carling cup as much as Europa. Well maybe not quite. At least the production is better. But my opinion of the worthiness of a competition holds little merit to the teams actual success. Actually going through and winning the cup does still show progression no matter my opinion of it.

And it's the combination of carling cup and fa cup semi final, not just the carling cup that I was describing.

However losing at home to Wigan. Well, that's got to be the worst result of this season for Liverpool. Have Wigan ever beaten Liverpool before? Let alone at anfield. Very poor show
Click to expand...

Joe, it's all opinion. The only people who can come close to determining the actual success of the club are its owners. If I had to make a guess, I would think it would be whether Champions League football had been achieved. Fans can only give their opinion and you have given yours. That's where measuring success by criteria including winning a competition that you think is worthless is contradictory.
 
new2me said:
C'mon Joe, only you are obsessed with this banter enough to go doing that :lol:
Just give up trying to pull a diamond from a pile of crap ... your team/manager/star striker is a joke regardless of how Manchester United (19 Times Winners of the English League) do this year ;)
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true man united fan, arrogant as they come. Hence why they are the most hated business, not just football team, in the country :thumbs:
 
19 Times Winners of the English League
in the words of the fat waiter
"That's a fakt!"
 
fabs said:
Joe, it's all opinion. The only people who can come close to determining the actual success of the club are its owners. If I had to make a guess, I would think it would be whether Champions League football had been achieved. Fans can only give their opinion and you have given yours. That's where measuring success by criteria including winning a competition that you think is worthless is contradictory.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think success can be measured on more than just opinion.
 
I'm going to watch Take Me Out, but the business remark from Joe and the owners remark from fabs has me on tenterhooks, as I was thinking of throwing Arsenal's 'success' financially into the mix.
Won nothing, but spent nothing = ???
 
fabs said:
Erm, we're talking about your personal measurement of success which is opinion. :thinking:
Click to expand...

So what do you think, compare the last 2 seasons of Liverpool. Do you think this season they have had so far has been better or worse. Looking at the stats:

2009-2010

League position 7th
FA cup third round loss to reading
League cup - 4th round
Europa - semi final

2010-2011

League position 6th
FA cup third round loss to manure
League cup - 3rd round loss to northampton
Europa - last 16
No qualification for Europe

2011-2012

League position 7th
FA cup semi final so far
League cup winner
qualified for Europe

So apart from not being in Europe (which was due to a failure of the season before to qualify) it's pretty clear that this season was better than last two. how is that opinion?
 
Because whether it's better or not is opinion. There are plenty of Liverpool fans who say that qualification for the Champions League is what they desire so their finishing position in the Premier League is the criteria they measure success by. Cups are nice to haves but not measure of a teams progress from season to season.

Your measure of success is based on league position + cup success even though you deem the cup that Liverpool have won to be worthless.
 
fabs said:
Because whether it's better or not is opinion. There are plenty of Liverpool fans who say that qualification for the Champions League is what they desire so their finishing position in the Premier League is the criteria they measure success by. Cups are nice to haves but not measure of a teams progress from season to season.

Your measure of success is based on league position + cup success even though you deem the cup that Liverpool have won to be worthless.
Click to expand...

Let's leave it there. It's kind of pointless. We obviously just disagree.
 
Listen to you lot rattling on about your poncy top flight teams.....you're all forgetting one thing: Leeds won.....and nothing else matters!! :lol:
 
Last edited:
Slimbert said:
Listen to you lot rattling on about your poncy top flight teams.....you're all forgetting one thing: Leeds won.....and nothing else matters!! :lol:
Click to expand...

Did they? Sorry, still laughing so much over the Forest score that most of us hadn't noticed ;)
 
Unbelievable goal by crouch. I've been a longstanding critic of his but you can't argue with the quality of his goal!

Fantastic win by arsenal today. Bumping up the goal difference nicely which could prove valuable with the way the race for CL is shaping up. With Gibbs scoring today we now have the most different players to score in the premier league this season and vermaelan is the highest scoring CB of the season. Doing well for a one man team!

I'm going to avoid passing comment on Liverpool today!
 
Liverpool have spent shed loads in last year or so and barely improved. Downing, Carroll, Henderson, Adam.... Can't win at home either, and the dirtiest cheat in Suarez. IMO they have not moved on, they will finish behind Newcastle so backwards step.
 
Great goal from Crouch. I thought the tackle from Barry was a penalty.

Bit miffed Mancini didn't do the beeb post match intervew and MOTD only showing a tiny bit of Kenny's post match intervew was a crime !
 
cambsno said:
Liverpool have spent shed loads in last year or so and barely improved. Downing, Carroll, Henderson, Adam.... Can't win at home either, and the dirtiest cheat in Suarez. IMO they have not moved on, they will finish behind Newcastle so backwards step.
Click to expand...

Liverpool are already 5 points adrift of Newcastle who also have a game in hand. Unless they improve a lot and quickly they could well finish behind Sunderland, Everton, Swansea and Norwich who are all in better form and within 3 points of them.

Anywhere between 7th and 12th is on the cards.
 
6865671430_38b066583e_o.gif
 
Ronaldo / Messi

Very different players.

Messi deserves to be regarded as the best player in the world and his style really suits Barcelona. It's all very slick, tippy tappy, almost like 5 a side football and he makes it look very easy. He's like the cherry on the cake. Ronaldo on the other hand is a far superior athlete with more pace and power.

Messi benefits a lot because of the team he plays in (even though he goes a long way to making it what it is) compared to Ronaldo who you feel at times has to work so hard for everybody.

Both great players.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top