The demise of the high street But why

if only other cities had the same transport Links as London, then it maybe viable to leave the car at home, i know if i lived down there i wouldn't even own a car, however i don't, i live in a village just outside of Leeds in order to do any shopping i need to take the car, but i do mainly shop at The White Rose, which has free parking ;););)

I live just over 20 miles outside London, I hate public transport with a passion. I'll take the car everytime. Even with parking charges there isn't much difference than the cost for the family on public transport. Plus we have the comfort of our own car in which we can leave stuff we don't have to carry around all day.
 
We are very lucky to live near a town that has free parking. It's a bit of a 'thing' in West Oxfordshire, that the council is committed to keeping parking free. Coupled with there being NO major shopping centres nearby, and parking in Oxford costing absolutely loads, our town centre is thriving.

A
 
nilagin said:
1 Litre of petrol in 1962 6.5p
1 Litre of petrol in 2012 135p+
I wouldn't call that a reduction in cost of transporting ourselves.

1962 average yearly pay was £799, average gross salary for full-time employees was £26,200 in 2011, when quoting past and present prices it has to put in context, so petrol has actually got cheaper relative to the average wage in the UK
 
^^^ edit: beat me to it, but it took me a while to prep this post :)

1 Litre of petrol in 1962 6.5p
1 Litre of petrol in 2012 135p+
I wouldn't call that a reduction in cost of transporting ourselves.

True, those numbers look scary.

Of course, what that bare figure misses is to take account of inflation and the increased efficiency of newer vehicles compared with their counterparts of fifty years ago. It also assumes a straight line increase of cost, which is not the case.

Stats presented from UK parliament, adjusted for inflation

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN04712

petrolpriceshistory2012_real.png


N.B. The Fuel Price Escalator was in place between 1993 and November 2000, raising duty on fuel to achieve a 3% rise in the price of fuel above inflation, later upped to 5% and then 6%, with the avowed aim of reducing pollution and traffic congestion.

Even allowing for the effects of the Escalator, you can see that fuel prices from the mid 80s through to 2000 were at a post-war low (indeed most of the 20th century with the exception of the late 40s, while petrol rationing was still in force until May 1950). Through the late 80s and 1990s, we got used to historically cheap fuel.

From the perspective of the the rise of out of town retail malls, it is also, perhaps not coincidentally as most of their customers would arrive by car, the most significant period of new development:

Merry Hill, Dudley opened in 1985
Metro Centre in Gateshead - 1986
Fosse Park, Leicester - 1989
Lakeside, Thurrock - 1990
Meadowhall, Sheffield - 1990
White Rose, Leeds - 1997
Trafford Centre in Manchester - 1998
Cribbs Causeway, Bristol 1998
Bluewater, Kent - 1999
Braehead, Glasgow 1999​

These are just the headline acts - there were thousands of new, large supermarkets built on the edges of our towns. We are living with the consequences of that period of building out-of-town retail centres.

Even after the blip during the fuel crisis of 1999/2000, the price of petrol, adjusted for inflation, was about the same as it was through most of the 1960s.

Taking inflation and the improved fuel efficiency of cars into account, and the cost of fuelling a car for 12,000 miles for a year's motoring fell by 25% between 1980 and 1990, according to Which magazine's calculations.

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/car-running-costs/find-the-cheapest-fuel/have-fuel-prices-risen/

In 2000, with the full effects of the Escalator, a year's worth of fuel was still 14% cheaper than in 1980.

In 2011, with inflation-adjusted fuel at a price only just short of its post-war high during the Suez Crisis in 1956, it is only 13% more expensive in real terms than thirty years previously, considerably less than your simple 6.5p -> 135p comparison suggests.

Of course, the general rise in living standards (UK GDP per capita adjusted for inflation approximately doubled between 1980 and 2012) suggests that the price of fuel today should be a little over half what it was thirty years ago as a proportion of our incomes, taking into account the numbers above.
 
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Some councils run their own pay car parks. Ultimately you pay whatever, either through council tax or for other things the council collect money from.
To be honest - I wouldn't mind that as much - as long as the car park was well maintained, kept clean and safe. Same with hospital car parks - if the money they made went back into the hospital, I wouldn't mind as much.

not sure I agree there or probably we are blessed where we live with having a superb baker, butcher, grocer and wine shops, all independent and family ran for generations, are they more expensive than going supermarket? probably but well worth the extra quality and they are always busy so I am glad we don't have the bulk buy/weekly shop type attitude.. I would hate to see our locals go, especially the 4 mentioned.
Sounds like you are a little blessed :) I do think that you're the exception though - most people (me included) just get everything from the supermarket. Even when I did live in the UK - the only shop that was walking distance from me was a small Co-Op - for anything else I had to go into town, and I'm not paying to park, I am not going on a weekend (because local shops close at 5PM and I didn't get in from work until 7 or later) so they lose out.

Even where my parents live (relatively small village) the local shops have all gone - when they moved in there was a butcher, greengrocer, bakers, general store etc - even a stamp collectors store... All gone. Now they have 2 hairdressers, a barbers, estate agent, and various kebab/chip shops....
 
You cant park there, it is a pain in the ass to get there, and when you do get there, you get cold and wet
 
The internet plays the biggest part. Sure, the cost of public transport,parking etc has an influence to some degree.

Even if fuel was 50p a litre and parking was free, why would I travel into town and to do my shopping when I can do it from the comfort of my own home and have it delivered there too, usually for a fraction of the price of the high street?

Gives me extra and precious time to be doing better things than shopping
 
Even if fuel was 50p a litre and parking was free, why would I travel into town and to do my shopping when I can do it from the comfort of my own home and have it delivered there too,

Waiting around for days for it to arrive only to find a card on the doormat! :D
 
Perhaps it all comes down to what there actually is on the high street?
 
Of course, you don't pay *any* parking charges, however long you stay, if you take the bus into town... ;)

Back to something I mentioned in my earlier post: as I live in (suburban) London and I've already paid for my Oyster card for my weekday commute into the city centre, the marginal financial cost of using public transport at the weekend is zero for me, which helps make it a viable alternative to taking the car.

This may not apply in other parts of the country.

:rofl: !!!
True but to get a return bus ticket from the top of the road into town will cost me £2 (a ride of just over a mile as the crow flies) and a return is £3.50. That's a long time in a car park here! And if we both want to go, it's far cheaper to walk down and get a cab home - the hill is the longest and steepest in the City, so walking up isn't an option for a fat old f***** like me!

We have a well stocked high street here, although it is rather generic (Debenhams, House of Fraser, Tescos, banks, etc) with few of the local, family run shops of the past. Can get most things there though (and, a short distance outside the City Centre, we have IIRC the highest density or largest selection of car dealerships in the UK, if not the EU!) There are also a couple of large out of town retail parks with (again) the usual suspects (PC world, Comet, Furniture Warehouse etc), which aren't (or at least weren't last time I drove there) restricted parking.

Found myself on the twirly bus earlier in the week (twirly since bus pass holders can't get their free travel before 09:30 and when they try (every day, some of them!) to get the 09:26, they invariably ask "Am I too early?" and get slung off!) and had an interesting discussion with a gentleman in his 60s, who told me that when a bus pass holder uses their pass, the bus company (Stagecoach) charge the council for the full journey, whether the trip's one stop or all the way. Personally, I would call that fraud. They have also persuaded the local council to set up bus lanes which cause huge traffic problems for those for whom public transport isn't an option - so many of the routes have been deemed unprofittable so the service has been stopped completely, leaving people no option (bar moving house) than to use their own transport. I don't object to the other money spent on providing the new higher kerbs at bus stops to aid wheelchair access, although I've yet to see a wheelchair user on the bus I use - it seems to be obese (and I do mean morbidly so) mothers using the ramps to assist then getting the buggy off the bus...
 
The Smartphone killing impulse buys

That looks nice, pulls out phone, it's £20 cheaper at XXXXX I'll order it when I get home

:lol::lol: seen this taday whilt in the local gas store, we where looking at a new range to go with the new kitchen next year and met some people from work in there looking at a new fire, they said they really likes that one but after one minute of her hubby on his phone said yes it is nict but I can get it from XXXX for £50 less delivered.

Reading the above made me chuckle thining about it
 
Part of the problem is that once a town centre goes into decline it is doomed as fewer and fewer people visit. Hanley is a god awful dump now. Newcastle has gone the same way. Congleton used to thrive but the moronic council introduced parking charges on most of the free car parks. Those car parks used to be full and sometimes there weren't spaces but now they're half empty most of the time on the odd occasion I can be bothered to go there. Parking is charged for a minimum of two hours. There isn't enough to occupy yourself for more than 30 minutes.

Sandbach has free parking. It's busy. If what I want is there I'll go further to there rather than waste money on parking charges as I can do a supermarket shop while I'm at it.

In the internet it doesn't rain, there are no infuriatingly dawdly old people, buskers, screaming kids, chuggers or other irritants.

A lot of the town centres locally are just boring clones with the same old dismal chains.

I also think that shopping as a leisure activity is in decline. It isn't fun. It's boring.

Shrewsbury seems to be the exception to this. Somehow they have made sure that the town centre is good to shop in and isn't just a load of boring chains. There are other shops, tea places and generally it's nice to go to. The massive free car park outside of Shrewsbury is free all day and the bus is pretty cheap. There are buses every 10 or 15 minutes. Parking is expensive in town but the park and ride is more convenient as you can be dropped right in the town centre without being stung for expensive parking or having trouble finding a space. It doesn't feel like a town that resents visitors.

Having just been to Brighton the locals are disgusted with the way the Greens are ruining the place. If you're not tripping up over homeless people, getting soaking wet feet because they haven't sorted out the drains you're being stung £25 to park more than a few hours. It's an awful place to visit.
 
Shrewsbury seems to be the exception to this. Somehow they have made sure that the town centre is good to shop in and isn't just a load of boring chains. There are other shops, tea places and generally it's nice to go to. The massive free car park outside of Shrewsbury is free all day and the bus is pretty cheap. There are buses every 10 or 15 minutes. Parking is expensive in town but the park and ride is more convenient as you can be dropped right in the town centre without being stung for expensive parking or having trouble finding a space. It doesn't feel like a town that resents visitors.


This shows my point - and shows that you still are willing to shop if the environment is good and the town WANTS you there....

Parking charges are a massive factor and the last thing you want is a Private Parking Company charging OR attempting to invoice you for 90 quid IF you outstay your welcome!! This was my initial point - so many more have bee raised here all relevant - maybe some town coucils should be directed to threads like this...they may even learn a thing or two about your average consumer - or, are TP members extraordinary :lol:
 
:thumbs:
I would rather have less of a superior product (meat, vegetables, bread), than a shopping trolley filled with "2 for 1's", "value" or dodgy special offers.
We do not have a good bakery near where I live, so I bake my own. We don't do a "weekly shop", we buy fresh what we need, and make our own food from scratch with good ingredients.
Our local butcher has a stall at the market every Saturday, and he sells his sausages at £5 for 2 packs, the quality is way above anything from Waitrose or M & S and the price is the same. He also has a griddle going, so that you can try the various flavours before buying.
I just wish that our High Streets were more like French ones, with all manner of artisan shops - bakers, butchers and all the specialist delis.

Totally agree, apart from the French bit!! We don't use our freezer, and don't buy supermarket meat
 
I live just over 20 miles outside London, I hate public transport with a passion. I'll take the car everytime. Even with parking charges there isn't much difference than the cost for the family on public transport. Plus we have the comfort of our own car in which we can leave stuff we don't have to carry around all day.

hmmm, I agree... Occasionally I have to get the bus to work. Now I am not against public transport, though I have a deep hatred of first bus, who use 11 yr old crappy buses on this route and charge £4 a day for the priviledge...

I just detest other people who use public transport. I.e. FFS - have a shower sometime, or even a wash....
 
yes the high street is in dire straights, high cost of parking i believe was the prime reason why most of us went shopping on our computers.
we found it easier,more fun and "they" had stuff we didnt even know about.

must say though that in south africa and Australia and America as-well [according to my sister] a days shopping in the malls of the towns is a different experience, the centers are huge,very modern and the shops are terrific,its easy to spend half a day out at the shops,have a coffee etc and of course ebay certainly isnt a rival in a place like south africa.
 
I hate wasting time shopping:gag:. As I wrote before, I now only use my local town centre for the rare occasion I need to go inside the bank.
Lakeside Thurrock is literally on my doorstep, just one junction away on the M25. I generally go there knowing what I want, buy it, and be back home again within 1/2 an hour. It probably takes me longer trying to negotiate the herds as they walk between shops than I actually spend in any one shop. Why anyone would want to spend half a day, or longer, shopping is beyond me.
My wife and I go to Tesco once a week to do our weekly shop. I get my shopping for work and cartons of juice etc. for our sons and she gets the rest. Mine's done within 10-15 minutes and I'll wait in the car, walking backwards and forwards up all the aisles at least twice with her and playing dodgems with other peoples trolleys does my brain in:bang: About an hour later she turns up with about 3 more bags than me in her trolley.:cuckoo:
 
I'm weird! I actually enjoy food shopping (not as much as I used to now so much is off my menu!) - I enjoy eating and choosing the ingredients is the start of that process. I would love to get artisan quality meat etc but almost all meat in the city comes from one or the other of 2 major local suppliers, both mass producers. Many years ago, Mum used to get real, home killed meat but the butcher was eventually forced to give up by constantly moving goalposts in terms of food hygeine etc. Where the shop used to be is now a small housing development and he is one of the Barmy Army following England cricketers around the world on the proceeds! We also used to get organic veg delivered but gave that up when we decided that the quality was so poor that we were basically paying a small fortune of a box of compost every week. We also objected to there being bananas in the box - one of our reasons for signing up to the scheme was to reduce food miles. When possible, I used to visit the farmers' market in the city centre on Thursdays, where I could pick and choose the produce and know exactly what I was paying for but recent health issues have removed my driving priveleges for a while and getting to town and back would add £3.50 to the shopping bill (and we'd still need to do our weekly shop at Sainsburys anyway). Once driving priveleges are restored, I'll start going to the market again - a quid or 2 on parking while I trawl the market and have a wander in town will be a damn sight better value than sitting on a smelly bus (I wasn't going to bring up the chaviness of a majority of bus users but someone already has!) and paying a small fortune for the (dubious) pleasure!
 
as well as car parks being pathetic, a big thing for me (controversially maybe) is charity workers constantly bombarding you.
I went to B&Q yesterday, not quite on a high street but the shop none-the-less and at the entrance was two sets of separate charity workers on each side of the door. walking through them felt uncomfortable and then at the entrance was some bloke in costume with another bucket for a 3rd charity. we went round the shop and bought paint then paid. We walked out of the store and one of the charities from the entrance was again at the exit.

I'm sadly not well off and at this current moment in time, charity really has to start at home with my 7month old son.
 
only had a quick scan through this, but cant see any mention of how intimidating town centres can be (not for me personally, but I've read/heard of older folk around the country avoiding them because of the loitering youths)

as some has said, overheads/rent were doing a lot of damage even before the internet kicked in
 
gazedd said:
as well as car parks being pathetic, a big thing for me (controversially maybe) is charity workers constantly bombarding you.
I went to B&Q yesterday, not quite on a high street but the shop none-the-less and at the entrance was two sets of separate charity workers on each side of the door. walking through them felt uncomfortable and then at the entrance was some bloke in costume with another bucket for a 3rd charity. we went round the shop and bought paint then paid. We walked out of the store and one of the charities from the entrance was again at the exit.

I know how you feel, charity workers on the street are becoming a huge hassle for me. If I wish to donate to charity, ill choose one and donate, and I do a few times per year. What I don't want is some high and mighty scrote getting in my way, not wanting to let me pass, hassling me and possibly making me late as they often try to physically block me. I've missed plenty of trains because if them as they're now allowed to operate inside Nottingham train station. The ones I come across are the ones who want you to sign up to a direct debit, and are paid commission.

To me, it is essentially legalised begging, and it puts me off going into town. I have respect for charity workers when they make an effort in trying to raise funds and use some imagination. But not when they lurk around outside shops, hassling people who are trying to get in with their lives and are basically begging using a sob story and biased statistics.

For the record, one of my favoured charities is cancer research, and I donate what I can spare to them as the last 3 generations of my family have died from cancer. It also won't surprise me if I go the same way, either from genetics or smoking. I've been approached by beggars collecting for cancer research and I still find what they do, and the tactics they use, absolutely disgusting.

Anyway, I'm sorry to go off topic and the rant is over, I've been needing to get that out for a while. now.
 
I find that the best course of action with these "chuggers" is to simply ignore them. There is no point in saying "no thanks" as to them "no thanks" means "maybe".
 
I find that the best course of action with these "chuggers" is to simply ignore them. There is no point in saying "no thanks" as to them "no thanks" means "maybe".

Apparently, if you tell them "No thanks" 3 times then there's an unwritten code that says they have to leave you alone.
 
"No thanks" "NO" then "non forum friendly language" works a treat. Chuggers are usually more agressive in their efforts/begging than Big Issue sellers, who are often satisfied with a "No thanks", since that at least means they're not invisible!

I very rarely drop anything into chuggers' tine but will often stop at stalls set up to collect for charity, especially those who have helped me or family in the past or who I think may have to help us in the future. I sometimes also send something to people on here who are looking for donations, which reminds me, Darren (Cowasaki), I still need a snail address to send you something for the 2 women officers who lost their lives in service. Any address will be fine as long as you're happy that either you or your pal who's doing/has done the ride get credit for it!
 
I just ignore chuggers altogether. They're used to it. A lot of them are like vultures picking over a corpse.

They do affect town centres though. Especially when there is a gang of them.

Best way to deal with the aggressive ones is to say to them that due their behaviour you will never give to that charity again and you will be making a formal complaint. The more people that do this the more they will be reined in. I know quite a few charities have stopped using them.

The question remains. What should happen to the high street to make it better? Will this Portas Pilot stuff actually work or is it to late?
 
It just is not practical to do the weekly shop in the high street. When I was a kid in the 70s me and my brothers and sisters took turns in going shopping with my mum.

We would start off at the bottom of the street starting at the Dairy. It would be Cheese Milk Eggs at the Dairy, then we would stop off at the cooked meat shop were we would buy cooked ham and Chicken. Then we would go to the top of the street and buy the Bacon from a shop up there, as that was the best Roded Bacon in the area. We would then cross over the road and start to make our way back home. If I had been good that week, I could stop at the little toy shop and buy a matchbox car or an airfix model. Then we would stop off at the wool shop and my mum would buy a few balls of wool etc. Then onto the fruit and veg shop were we bought all Veggies of course. Then we would stop off at the newsagents buy the news paper and a comic and sweets etc.


Then we would stop off at the butchers shop and buy what ever meat we could afford. Then onto the little continental store, here we would buy any exotic stuff.
It would take blooming ages to do all this, plus buy the time you got home, you always got sent over to the corner shop, as something was always forgotten!

It would be absolutely mad to shop like that now, we just do not have the time anymore. The reason for that is because we all spend too much time on the internet, well that's my reason ;)



PS

I forgot about the pet shop, I hated doing that as you had to struggle with heavy tins and bags of dog bics.

The supermarkets makes things easier, or makes us more lazy :thinking:
 
It just is not practical to do the weekly shop in the high street. When I was a kid in the 70s me and my brothers and sisters took turns in going shopping with my mum.

We would start off at the bottom of the street starting at the Dairy. It would be Cheese Milk Eggs at the Dairy, then we would stop off at the cooked meat shop were we would buy cooked ham and Chicken. Then we would go to the top of the street and buy the Bacon from a shop up there, as that was the best Roded Bacon in the area. We would then cross over the road and start to make our way back home. If I had been good that week, I could stop at the little toy shop and buy a matchbox car or an airfix model. Then we would stop off at the wool shop and my mum would buy a few balls of wool etc. Then onto the fruit and veg shop were we bought all Veggies of course. Then we would stop off at the newsagents buy the news paper and a comic and sweets etc.


Then we would stop off at the butchers shop and buy what ever meat we could afford. Then onto the little continental store, here we would buy any exotic stuff.
It would take blooming ages to do all this, plus buy the time you got home, you always got sent over to the corner shop, as something was always forgotten!

It would be absolutely mad to shop like that now, we just do not have the time anymore. The reason for that is because we all spend too much time on the internet, well that's my reason ;)



PS

I forgot about the pet shop, I hated doing that as you had to struggle with heavy tins and bags of dog bics.

The supermarkets makes things easier, or makes us more lazy :thinking:

You make some very good points there!!!

I think another big change is the work dynamic within families.

Going back only 20-30 or so years, it wasn't the norm for Mums to work full-time and or have access to a car all the time.

"Mum" could pop to the local shops to get a few bits for tea.

Now a lot of Mums do work full time and have their own car meaning they can't just pop to the local shop during the day and will make the most of their time by going to the supermarket once a week.
 
It just is not practical to do the weekly shop in the high street. When I was a kid in the 70s me and my brothers and sisters took turns in going shopping with my mum.

We would start off at the bottom of the street starting at the Dairy. It would be Cheese Milk Eggs at the Dairy, then we would stop off at the cooked meat shop were we would buy cooked ham and Chicken. Then we would go to the top of the street and buy the Bacon from a shop up there, as that was the best Roded Bacon in the area. We would then cross over the road and start to make our way back home. If I had been good that week, I could stop at the little toy shop and buy a matchbox car or an airfix model. Then we would stop off at the wool shop and my mum would buy a few balls of wool etc. Then onto the fruit and veg shop were we bought all Veggies of course. Then we would stop off at the newsagents buy the news paper and a comic and sweets etc.


Then we would stop off at the butchers shop and buy what ever meat we could afford. Then onto the little continental store, here we would buy any exotic stuff.
It would take blooming ages to do all this, plus buy the time you got home, you always got sent over to the corner shop, as something was always forgotten!

It would be absolutely mad to shop like that now, we just do not have the time anymore. The reason for that is because we all spend too much time on the internet, well that's my reason ;)



PS

I forgot about the pet shop, I hated doing that as you had to struggle with heavy tins and bags of dog bics.

The supermarkets makes things easier, or makes us more lazy :thinking:

You make some very good points there!!!

I think another big change is the work dynamic within families.

Going back only 20-30 or so years, it wasn't the norm for Mums to work full-time and or not have access to a car all the time.

"Mum" could pop to the local shops to get a few bits for tea.

Now a lot of Mums do work full time and have their own car meaning they can't just pop to the local shop during the day and will make the most of their time by going to the supermarket once a week.
 
For me it's poor stock levels.

If I'm going to take the time to go to a shop and then pay a premium then I expect to get it then and there - not for them to say they'll order it in for me. Although price doesn't bother me too much, I'd still pay more to be able to deal with a store especially for larger items.
 
Click and collect is handy for making sure they have what you want. Although with B & Q it is a total nonsense. Their stock levels aren't updated properly so you go to a store that lets you reserve stock which they don't have and in some cases never had!
 
The high street that I grew up and shopped at has changed so much, it is now a lonely soulless street. Back in the 70s and 80s it was a lovely vibrant area, all the hustling and bustling of daily life. I would have loved to walk about my area in the 70s and 80s with a camera, all the sights I could have caught. But now all the shops have gone, they have all changed into houses. With maybe just one or two rickety old sweet shops/ newsagents that not many people seem to use.
 
without wanting to go off course, I find the whole city shopping experience something awful...

Take Gentlemans walk in Norwich - less than 5 mins walk end to end...

On there guaranteed 3 big issue sellers - fair do's and no means no
Chuggers - usually a team of about 6 - they will see you ignore one and the next one will try.
Puppetman - google puppetman norwich. He is not all there
The most unconvincing Charlie Chapman statue busker ever
Various buskers of talents ranging from god damn awful, to not too bad...
Religious zealots - now each to their own - and I don't care which, if any, God / Deity you choose to worship, (ever a giant teapot called Matilda, I don't care) but do not ram it down my throat.... however they are entertaining for a bit of sport, if you are up for a "bit of debate..."

I used to pick on the chuggers and waste their time - "Oxfam? No, never heard of it. Tell me more." However it is far more entertaining to discuss the works of Prof S Hawkings and science....
 
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Who's Charlie Chapman? I'm guessing you mean Chaplin?
 
Probably, possibly on its first release! I doubt that any theatre student busking would have though, although they probably would have heard of Charlie Chapman!

Risquée joke time...

What did Charlie Chaplin get up to in his 80s?

Spent a lot of time up to his apricots!
 
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