THE CRITIQUE SANDPIT

SarahLee

SarahLee

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PRACTICE YOUR CRITIQUE HERE

The ever continuing subject of critique on the forums has been raising its head again lately and it seems that some of the main issues we still have with it are:

  1. People not wanting to give negative critique in case they offend somebody or make themselves look silly.
  2. People not having the confidence or feeling experienced enough to say any more than "great shot".
  3. When it is given, negative critique not being framed in a constructive way.

A couple of thoughts on this :

> Negative critique should never be destructive. We're all here to learn and we all have things that we can improve on. If you're posting a photo for critique, you should expect to hear some negatives as well as positives and take them in the spirit intended. If you're the one giving critique try to phrase it in such a way as to be constructive.

> "Great shot" type comments are OK if you genuinely like an image and that's really all you can say about it, but I'd love to see people start to think about what it is that makes it a great shot.
Not only does that help the poster to understand what they've done well, but if you learn to deconstruct an image and understand why it works for you it's a great learning aid for your own photography too.
Also remember that most of the more experienced photographers here are open to questions from beginners on how they achieved something - take advantage of that, ask questions and learn from it. Don't just drop a "great shot" and run!

> If somebody takes the time to comment on your thread, please have the courtesy to acknowledge them.
You don't have to agree with them, but there's nothing that puts people off writing more in depth responses like being ignored by the OP.

> Finally, you don't need any great level of experience to have an opinion about why a photo is good (or not as the case may be). Really, you don't !!!


This thread is here for posters to practice giving critique, build confidence and discuss the critique given by others in the thread.

The photo below has been added specifically for this purpose because there are lots of things that could be improved in it, so nobody needs to worry about upsetting anyone or saying something daft - and although my edit box isn't ticked, for the purpose of this thread any edits that you think may illustrate your point are welcome.

IMAGE 1

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Alternate link if image isn't showing

A couple more photos donated below to give some more choice.
Remember to note which one you're commenting on when you post !!!

IMAGE 2

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Alternate link if image isn't showing


IMAGE 3

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Alternate link if image isn't showing

What I'd like to see people try to do is explain what they like about it and why, what doesn't work and why and what their overall thoughts on the photo are.

As well as a practice area for newcomers, it would be great to see some more experienced and confident members join in to show how it should be done.
If this gets enough interest, new images can be added once this one has been done to death.
 
- The candle at the front has the reflection cutoff and I think it would look better showing the whole reflection of the front candle so it would be better balanced.

- It doesn't look straight and is going down to the right

- Could do with a smaller aperture as the front candle being out of focus detracts from the group of candles (this would be helped naturally if further back so that the whole reflection was seen)

- Candles are not arranged in a pleasing way and look a bit disjointed

- I think the exposure on the flames is just right
 
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I like the idea of this shot although the first thing i noticed is that it is not straight and the front candle is out of focus which di a bit distracting. Personally I would lose it as a group of five looks better, also maybe a smaller aperture to get the furthest candle in focus.
All that said it is a promising shot, I like the black surface and the reflections, you have exposed it well.
 
Pros:- Concept, exposure (and they're among the hardest things to get right IMO!)

Cons:- Not level, front candle too far forward from others which (IMO) spoils the symmetry.

Suggestions:- Move front candle back so the 2 in front of the 3 are level. Level the camera correctly and try to recompose so that the flames and their reflection lie on (or near) the "thirds". While keeping the EV (Exposure Value) the same, stop the lens down a stop (or 2 if that doesn't introduce diffraction) and increase the exposure time to increase the DoF (Depth of Field) so all the candles are in acceptable focus.

Playtime!:- While you have the scene and camera set up for this shot, explore the different effects more or less exposure gives you (try a stop each way at 1/3rd stop intervals) and also see how different apertures give more or less depth of field. Have a play with alternative white balance settings too.

All in all, not a bad try for a beginner - we all started somewhere!

:D How's that? ;) Sorry, on wrong machine to do a rough edit and CBA to shoot my attempt to illustrate my ideas. Nearly bed time too! Just got to wait for the Raptors to eat each other (or the next ad break...)
 
Brilliant idea Sarah!
Pros:- Exp looks good, blacks are rich
Cons:- Completely lacking in composition, I feel that it's too messy with the placement of the candles and the front candle is clearly out of your DoF so I would up the F to compensate for this. The WB looks slightly out on the candles, I would try and whiten it a bit in lightroom if possible.
I would completely change the composition of the imaege (but that's my view) by possibly lining the candles up in a single line coming from the bottom left to just outside the centre frame to add a bit of Bokeh :)
Could also add some fill from a flash on 1/32 if you could to add a bit more light and detail to the candles but this would need experimenting due to the reflective surface that you've used :)
Last thing to add - clean the surface, I can see smears and finger prints ;)
 
ernesto said:
- The candle at the front has the reflection cutoff and I think it would look better showing the whole reflection of the front candle so it would be better balanced.

- It doesn't look straight and is going down to the right

- Could do with a smaller aperture as the front candle being out of focus detracts from the group of candles (this would be helped naturally if further back so that the whole reflection was seen)

- Candles are not arranged in a pleasing way and look a bit disjointed

- I think the exposure on the flames is just right
Click to expand...

what he said

plus the front flame is soft - it looks like the focus point was further back, - its very difficult to get a af to lock onto a semi translucent flame , so its usually better to focus manually or lock focus on something in the same plane and recompose.
 
Nice shot. :thumbs:

Damn damn damn damn........I really need to learn how to do this! :D


Right, the practice:

The image needs straightening.
The DOF I feel is a bit shallow especially with the front candle OOF.
I think the base on which the candles are standing needs to be cleaned up.
I'm not sure about the set-out of the candles either. They look a bit "random", so not sure if that was the intention or not.

Better? :thumbs::shrug:


Have to say, I often give CC on images and never just comment with "nice shot" as I don't see the point or gain from that. I do find however that when I have (politely) given negative CC, I often fail to get a reply at all. :(
 
:thumbs: Thank you everyone for getting behind this thread.
I haven't got time to read it all right now, but I will pop back later and respond properly to the comments.

Gareth, I forgot to mention that I have my :bat: at the ready for the first person who said "nice shot" :p

It would be nice to see some beginners getting engaged in here and having a go too.
 
O.K., here goes... ...

When I look at this photo I can immediately see what the photographer had in mind at the outset.

However, there are a couple of issues that I think need to be addresed. Firstly, there is focus. I'm not sure what is meant to be in focus and what isn't. Secondly, the composition is problematic for me with respect to the reflection of the front candle. A small part of it is showing and I would've thought that it should be an "all or nothing" thing.

The exposure seems fine to me.
 
ok my 2p worth :)

Things I noticed and in what order

1. Candle in front is just in your face blocking any sight into the picture.
2. Not straight.
3. Looked beyond front candle the others appeared to be set random, where as a organised pattern might be better.
4. Reflection of flames has some odd bits, perhaps clone them out.

Overall if it is an exposure experiment then pretty good other than that not sure what the point of the picture (apart from getting people to crit ;))
 
SarahLee said:
People not having the confidence or feeling experienced enough to say any more than "great shot".
Click to expand...

Great idea for a thread Sarah. I think the point you have made above has summed up my feelings quite well. I'm fairly new to the forum and am a bit reserved in pointing out the things that don't quite work for me in a shot. I've seen a couple of photos on here that, on the whole, I've liked but there have been a couple of things that I would have liked to see altered (I just haven't had the courage to say them).

So, my thoughts on the image are:
The slope to the right is distracting but could easily be fixed in processing.
The front candle draws too much attention. It would perhaps look better a bit further back or with a greater depth of field so that it isn't out of focus.
Also, the reflection of the front candle is cut off. Personally, I would prefer to see the entire reflection.
Saying all of that, it's a nicely exposed image and I like the use of a reflective surface in a shot of this nature.

Simon
 
that shot is crap, its just a snapshot with no merit at all , WTF are you even wasting our time with that... honestly learn to use your damn camera you ******

a swift rendition of how not to give crit

(please don't ban me :exit:) :lol:
 
We've had plenty of threads about the whys, wherefores and why-not's regarding critique... if you wish to discuss that aspect, please pick one of those threads (or start the 10,000,000th new one for that matter, and I'll copy all the off-topic guff from in here into it for you...) but PLEASE can we keep this thread on topic - either practicing your critique (or maybe giving a proper reasoned and helpful critique on other members efforts, if you see a problem with it)

Cheers.
 
:thumbs: Thanks everyone and I think all the comments are spot on - and a million times better than a "nice shot" or this just being ignored with no comments.

My thoughts on the critique so far (because it's only fair that I give something back)

Chris : 100% agree with everything that you've said, it's all well thought out and explained well and thank you for starting this thread off :thumbs:
I just feel like it could do with a sentence as an introduction though - something like "there are a few (lot of!) things that need working on".

Bondy : I really like that. Gives me a couple of things to work on but it also makes me feel like I'm not doing it completely wrong and I have a starting point to build on.

Nod : That's brilliant - thank you!
It must have taken a while to write all of that and I really like the playtime suggestions. I just wish there was enough time between all of us to write that sort of thing for every post.

Dave : Again spot on with what needs working on and it's good that you've given some practical suggestions on how to do that.

Pete : First post not the second version :bat:
Again really like there's a bit of practical advice on what to do to rectify things.

Gareth: :thumbs: And I know that you're someone who always gives some detailed feedback on the forums.
I'm finding that it's about 50/50 whether I ever get a response from the OP which I'll be completely honest and say is one of my pet hates on the forum (see my sig) . . . that is one I really don't know how else to tackle (and probably one for discussion in the FD thread not here anyway)

Ged : Thank you. And your first sentence about seeing what the photographer had in mind is actually really reassuring for me with my "newbie photographer" hat on.

Bob : Yep - agree with all of that again, although like Chris's post if this was 'real' critique it would be nice just to have a sentence introducing it.

Simon : Thank You !!! Really good to see a new member joining in. "I don't feel qualified or confident enough to give feedback" is something we hear a lot of from new members so I'm genuinely pleased that you've decided to play.
Nothing at all wrong with what you've written and you honestly shouldn't feel nervous about saying that sort of thing on the forum. If other posters haven't said it in the thread it's probably because they don't feel comfortable with it either.


It would be great if some more newer members would join in too.
 
Possibly should have said this in the OP. To an extent it shouldn't matter, but for anyone interested :

This is actually a genuine photo and not something staged for the purpose of this thread. I've been dredging the depths of my hard drive for some of the first images I took with my little bridge camera when I first got interested in photography. An interesting little trip down memory lane and I'd actually suggest that others try it with their photos too.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I was probably very proud of this when I took it and genuinely couldn't see the faults that are so obvious now. I don't know if I ever posted this particular one here for critique, but if I had I'm also honest enough to admit that the comments would probably have stung a bit at the time.
Having said that, if not for hearing those things and taking them on board I'd still be making the same mistakes today and wouldn't now be getting a steady enough flow of paid work to be planning on dropping to part time hours in my other job next year.

I'd love to see other new members getting the same level of help and support that I got in those early days . . . even if it's slightly painful to take at first.
 
SarahLee said:
:thumbs: Thanks everyone and I think all the comments are spot on - and a million times better than a "nice shot" or this just being ignored with no comments.

My thoughts on the critique so far (because it's only fair that I give something back)

Chris : 100% agree with everything that you've said, it's all well thought out and explained well and thank you for starting this thread off :thumbs:
I just feel like it could do with a sentence as an introduction though - something like "there are a few (lot of!) things that need working on".

Bondy : I really like that. Gives me a couple of things to work on but it also makes me feel like I'm not doing it completely wrong and I have a starting point to build on.

Nod : That's brilliant - thank you!
It must have taken a while to write all of that and I really like the playtime suggestions. I just wish there was enough time between all of us to write that sort of thing for every post.

Dave : Again spot on with what needs working on and it's good that you've given some practical suggestions on how to do that.

Pete : First post not the second version :bat:
Again really like there's a bit of practical advice on what to do to rectify things.

Gareth: :thumbs: And I know that you're someone who always gives some detailed feedback on the forums.
I'm finding that it's about 50/50 whether I ever get a response from the OP which I'll be completely honest and say is one of my pet hates on the forum (see my sig) . . . that is one I really don't know how else to tackle (and probably one for discussion in the FD thread not here anyway)

Ged : Thank you. And your first sentence about seeing what the photographer had in mind is actually really reassuring for me with my "newbie photographer" hat on.

Bob : Yep - agree with all of that again, although like Chris's post if this was 'real' critique it would be nice just to have a sentence introducing it.

Simon : Thank You !!! Really good to see a new member joining in. "I don't feel qualified or confident enough to give feedback" is something we hear a lot of from new members so I'm genuinely pleased that you've decided to play.
Nothing at all wrong with what you've written and you honestly shouldn't feel nervous about saying that sort of thing on the forum. If other posters haven't said it in the thread it's probably because they don't feel comfortable with it either.


It would be great if some more newer members would join in too.
Click to expand...

My problem is I am straight forward and been accused of being blunt in a nice way :) words into text is not a strong point of mine but I agree a introduction of some sort would be more accepatable :thumbs:
 
RKC said:
My problem is I am straight forward and been accused of being blunt in a nice way :) :
Click to expand...

I've just been accused of being blunt - i'm the guy who famously told an ex, when she asked if i thought she had a fat bum, " well not compared to a hippo"

I've mellowed with the years, but still if someone asks me to crit a pic which is mediocre at best they'll get a run down of its faults and how imo they could be rectified

the usual formula for feedback (from some ******** management course i went on)

cover positives first
then sum up what could be improved
give them constructive advice on how to improve
try and round up on a high note
 
I really like the idea of this thread.

I have to admit (and you can tell by my post count) that i'm a pretty quiet member of the forum as I find it difficult to give c&c - i'm more of a "really like this shot" person.

I will try harder though, but find it difficult to join in if someone else has already given a good review of the image, but I also struggle to work out myself why I like a particular photo and I think that is my sticking point to be honest.
 
gaz_r33 said:
I really like the idea of this thread.

I have to admit (and you can tell by my post count) that i'm a pretty quiet member of the forum as I find it difficult to give c&c - i'm more of a "really like this shot" person.

I will try harder though, but find it difficult to join in if someone else has already given a good review of the image, but I also struggle to work out myself why I like a particular photo and I think that is my sticking point to be honest.
Click to expand...

Hi Gaz,

That's exactly why this thread is here :)
And if you do really like a shot - absolutely nothing wrong at all with saying that. Working out why is always harder (in fact harder than saying why you don't like something) but it's worth persevering with. If you can start to understand what makes a photo work for you, then you have something valuable to take forward in your own photography.

Hoping to have some more practice shots up here soon so there's some more choice for people to comment on.
 
Hi love the contrast
The exposure is nice
Colours are very striking
The point of focus doesn't really help the
Composition although it would lead in to the pic more
If the focus and composition complimented each other
Hope that helps
 
Have to admit that I rarely venture into the C&C area, mainly because I VERY rarely post anything there for C&C - I'm far more comfortable in the Photos for Pleasure realm!!!

On my rare forays there though, I tend to only offer my views when I can offer advice rather than just likes and dislikes - and I tend to ignore shots that have plainly been put in for backslapping... I also tend to only look at threads that might interest me as a subject, with motorsport (especially classics) being my main area of interest (although I will [and have!] sho[o]t most things given a chance!)

I will try to look in when I get a chance but since my wife's now free more, we're catching up on together time after so many years of long hours (not to mention the events of a tear or so ago...), rather nice to still be so close after almost 30 years as a couple! I'll try to do some constructive C&C while she's teaching her morning classes but if I'm less complimentary to some shots, I'll blame the early hour!!!
 
:thumbs: Thanks Nod . . . and that's all we can ask of anyone.
Just a post here and there when they have time to help others on their way.
And if they're not too complimentary . . . well as long as it's polite and it's honest I'd rather see a handful of those over a hundred "nice shots" any day.
 
**MOD EDIT** There is already a post in this thread about keeping the subject on topic and not disrupting:

TheBigYin said:
We've had plenty of threads about the whys, wherefores and why-not's regarding critique... if you wish to discuss that aspect, please pick one of those threads (or start the 10,000,000th new one for that matter, and I'll copy all the off-topic guff from in here into it for you...) but PLEASE can we keep this thread on topic - either practicing your critique (or maybe giving a proper reasoned and helpful critique on other members efforts, if you see a problem with it)

Cheers.
Click to expand...


Please try and adhere to our requests in future.

Thank you.
 
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I am trying to - honest. BUT .... when I click on a link (all 3) , all I get is a blank page - is that because I am a (very) new member on here?
 
Are the pictures not showing for you?
They should be there and with working links as well in case anyone can't see them.
I'll do a bit of digging now :)

p.s. if you want to reply to a post you can just click the "Post reply" button at the bottom. No need to worry about quoting the post above.
 
Hi Sarah - thanks for the prompt response.

No I cannot see the pictures - I just have a blank white screen where the picture should be.

I just tried a random link in another thread and that worked ok (But it wasn't to a picture)
 
Just to try and be clearer ...

I cannot see any picture in post 1 - just links, like this:

IMAGE 1



http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/for...1&pictureid=26

And when I click on the link I just get a blank page under the usual internet stuff of web site, File/edit/view etc
 
That's very strange. The images should be showing in the thread with the link underneath.
We've had a look at it and the images do seem to be working OK at our end.

It's not the first time that I've seen an issue with some people being able to see images I've hosted in my gallery though, try the altrenate links I've just put in underneath them and see if they work for you.
 
Hi Sarah - I still can't see any pictures in the thread itself but the links do work= candles/seaside/monkeys.

So thanks for sorting that out.

I will have a go at critiquing now (after I have done an intro)
 
First attempt at a critique - Image 3

(I'll use the suggested structure)


(Positives first)

Good use of aperture setting to get good depth of field for main bits of interest - monkeys - and means they stand out well against the (deliberately) blurred background and are in focus

like the highlights on the heads


(What could be improved)

Not obvious to me at first that it was a picture of monkeys because the faces are in the shade- a result of achieving the good highlights on the hair

Not clear to me what I am supposed to be looking at as there is too much detail

(constructive advice on how to improve)

In the field concentrate on one animal at a time

On the computer crop to just the one large monkey by the tree trunk

On the computer try adjusting exposure/contrast etc to see if you can retain the highlighted hair but also reveal more detail of the face

(Round up on a high note)

Photographing animals - especially 'wild' ones is extremely difficult and requires either a lot of planning/preparation or a great deal of luck. This is a good start but you should be able to produce better.


(For the avoidance of doubt................people can feel free to comment on this critique:))
 
Sarah - don't understand why but I can now see the pictures in post 1 above
 
sarah reuploaded them the other night (it wasn't you - I couldn't see them either before the reup - i'd guesss something had corrupted )
 
Elines said:
Sarah - don't understand why but I can now see the pictures in post 1 above
Click to expand...

big soft moose said:
sarah reuploaded them the other night (it wasn't you - I couldn't see them either before the reup - i'd guesss something had corrupted )
Click to expand...

:thumbs: Indeed I did.
(and apologies, I've been working away for a couple of days so I haven't managed to get back on here to reply :) )

Absolutely spot on bit of critique from you though - and just the sort of thing we need to see more of on the forums.
If every member who browses the photo feedback sections could do that for just one photo as they're passing through it would make such a huge difference.
 
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