Studio Lighting issue

Michael Sewell said:
Actually, I believe background reflectors are fine. I just think there may be a possibility the OP isn't getting the required spread of light due to distance. The narrow band of blow out across the middle looks suspiciously like two background reflectors that may be too close to the background
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They are about 1.5 metre away from the background, but due to space i was advised this would do the job, but sounds like i may have been misinformed.
 
arad85 said:
:agree: The boy/stool are the wrong colour too.... If you get the WB right in camera, changing the background to fully blown (either with umbrellas or in post) is pretty easy....
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would like to get it correct in camera so gonna have a play with this later and post any results.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Hmm interesting.

That grey card is pretty grey. And yes there seems to be an orange tint at the top. How odd.

Do you have a pullback? I'm trying to visualise the lighting.
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pullback? do you mean a shot of the setup?
 
donkeymusic said:
They are about 1.5 metre away from the background, but due to space i was advised this would do the job, but sounds like i may have been misinformed.
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You weren't misinformed, at that distance they are the best option, they just need to be angled correctly to light the background evenly.
White reflective umbrellas do the job just as well, but need space that you haven't got.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I don't see that. As I see it, it's a white balance issue full stop - the fact that the white balance problem isn't visible in the blown areas doesn't matter, it's still there and still the cause of the problem.
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There's no doubt there is a WB problem, but I also wanted to remove any doubt the light restrictions weren't compounding the issue
 
donkeymusic said:
They are about 1.5 metre away from the background, but due to space i was advised this would do the job, but sounds like i may have been misinformed.
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No, background reflectors are great, but the angle tends to need more thought and better judgement than an umbrella
 
donkeymusic said:
could you offer any advise on this please?

thanks
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I have seen them pointed acutely towards the background and far too close, so they then act as spotlights rather than a shielded background light. The canopy is there to prevent the light from contaminating your subject, and allows you to allow the light to come forward enough to fill the backdrop and floor area behind the subject, without it becoming a rim light and catching the subject itself. Turning off all modelling lights except the background reflectors will allow you to see exactly what I mean.
These reflectors are excellent at what they do, and the shielding means that even in a tight space, you can manage the light very effectively.
 
donkeymusic said:
custom white balance sample, what do you think?

The settings were 5400k and a colour filter G1


cwb by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr
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It looks sort of OK to me.
Problem is, all the shots you've posted are seriously overexposed, this tends to hide or minimise problems. You may like the effect, but leaving aside the question of whether or not it's good photography, it isn't helping here.
If you get the exposure right it will be easier for people to give good advice.
 
Garry Edwards said:
It looks sort of OK to me.
Problem is, all the shots you've posted are seriously overexposed, this tends to hide or minimise problems. You may like the effect, but leaving aside the question of whether or not it's good photography, it isn't helping here.
If you get the exposure right it will be easier for people to give good advice.
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it does look better than before.

The exposure should be fine, i am metering f8 for the subject being the posing tubs and metering f11 on the background.
 
donkeymusic said:
it does look better than before.

The exposure should be fine, i am metering f8 for the subject being the posing tubs and metering f11 on the background.
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The white balance issue looks like a bit of a storm in a teacup and should be easily sorted, but you need to control the background exposure better. It looks too bright, certainly in the centre, and there's clearly uneven fall off around the sides.

Since you seem to have the space, I would pull the stools forward and get some better lights on the background. Nothing fancy, just a couple of brollies, then screen them off from the camera. Big screens, like big poly boards the size of a door (they make great reflectors too).

Try to get the lights down to 1/2 stop over in the centre behind the subject and as even as resonably possible, but you can always clean up the edges in post processing.

The more separation you can get between front and background lights, the more control you will have. You will inevitably need to do some cleaning up in PP around the feet in full length subjects.
 
Umm.. not sure if it matters, but the walls are magnolia which has a reddish hue. Taking the wide shot, if you set the grey card as "white" the backdrop look red (where it isn't saturated). If you take the backdrop as white, the grey card still looks grey, but has a lower R value (by 10 or so) compared to G which is a couple lower than B.
 
Michael Sewell said:
I have seen them pointed acutely towards the background and far too close, so they then act as spotlights rather than a shielded background light. The canopy is there to prevent the light from contaminating your subject, and allows you to allow the light to come forward enough to fill the backdrop and floor area behind the subject, without it becoming a rim light and catching the subject itself. Turning off all modelling lights except the background reflectors will allow you to see exactly what I mean.
These reflectors are excellent at what they do, and the shielding means that even in a tight space, you can manage the light very effectively.
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What height would you recommend to have them?
 
arad85 said:
Umm.. not sure if it matters, but the walls are magnolia which has a reddish hue. Taking the wide shot, if you set the grey card as "white" the backdrop look red (where it isn't saturated). If you take the backdrop as white, the grey card still looks grey, but has a lower R value (by 10 or so) compared to G which is a couple lower than B.
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I did wonder if this would make much difference, and was considering paintings the walls, however in another unit I had the same orange tint and the walls were grey so I can only think its a camera setting
 
HoppyUK said:
The white balance issue looks like a bit of a storm in a teacup and should be easily sorted, but you need to control the background exposure better. It looks too bright, certainly in the centre, and there's clearly uneven fall off around the sides.

Since you seem to have the space, I would pull the stools forward and get some better lights on the background. Nothing fancy, just a couple of brollies, then screen them off from the camera. Big screens, like big poly boards the size of a door (they make great reflectors too).

Try to get the lights down to 1/2 stop over in the centre behind the subject and as even as resonably possible, but you can always clean up the edges in post processing.

The more separation you can get between front and background lights, the more control you will have. You will inevitably need to do some cleaning up in PP around the feet in full length subjects.
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The background exposure is f11, for subjects measuring f8. I am not getting any signs on the blinkers on the camera that i am over exposing. I can agree the lighting doesn't seem even but have both background positioned equally to to offer the same amount of light, any suggestions how that could be improved?

On a limited budget now after getting this new unit and after buying kit that I thought would do the job I can't justify extra kit although brollies are not that expensive, I thought the background reflectors were made for this purpose.

Looking at my setup is it possible to get an even light across the whole background, the paper is 3.55meters wide?

Thanks
 
HoppyUK said:
The white balance issue looks like a bit of a storm in a teacup and should be easily sorted, but you need to control the background exposure better. It looks too bright, certainly in the centre, and there's clearly uneven fall off around the sides.

Since you seem to have the space, I would pull the stools forward and get some better lights on the background. Nothing fancy, just a couple of brollies, then screen them off from the camera. Big screens, like big poly boards the size of a door (they make great reflectors too).

Try to get the lights down to 1/2 stop over in the centre behind the subject and as even as resonably possible, but you can always clean up the edges in post processing.

The more separation you can get between front and background lights, the more control you will have. You will inevitably need to do some cleaning up in PP around the feet in full length subjects.
Click to expand...

What would you recommend for the screens, need them to be sturdy as lot of my clients are children and families, thanks
 
Why not try turning the smart flashes off and taking a shot with the softboxes in those positions and see what happens to the colour of the background then.
or
Take the diffuser off the softboxes to see if the diffusion materialis duff or has some wierd effect
or
take two ceiling height lengths off your paper roll and use them suspended, to screen off the magnolia walls, creating a tight,white U shape backdrop to aim your lights into which would rule out the magnolia walls effecting things
or
clear all custom camera settings and start again just in case you have something wierd set.
or
try a different camera and see how that works, that review I linked to claimed that yours is crap for colour

I don't know what I'm talking about but sometimes a nob can blunder across a solution.:)
 
donkeymusic said:
What would you recommend for the screens, need them to be sturdy as lot of my clients are children and families, thanks
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I suggested poly boards, as they're big and light and cheap. You find them lying around a lot of studios. White is maybe not ideal though.

Or you could use changing screens, so long as they're full length, and they look quite attractive. You'll just have to improvise, but I'm basing the suggestion largely on a) screening off the background should help, and b) it looks like you've got some room to move the subject position further from the background.

If so, this opens up options for more control of lighting, of wrap, and flare. This white background thing is so much easier with a bit of space.
 
HoppyUK said:
I suggested poly boards, as they're big and light and cheap. You find them lying around a lot of studios. White is maybe not ideal though.

Or you could use changing screens, so long as they're full length, and they look quite attractive. You'll just have to improvise, but I'm basing the suggestion largely on a) screening off the background should help, and b) it looks like you've got some room to move the subject position further from the background.

If so, this opens up options for more control of lighting, of wrap, and flare. This white background thing is so much easier with a bit of space.
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The space i have is 3.6 metres from the background to the front of the paper roll( the distance is due to laying white board down as a base for the paper).

The background reflectors are positioned 1.2m from the background and i have been having the subject stand around the 2-2.4m mark so i would be able to move them forward if i needed space for the background lights.

I think i am going to have a look at umbrellas today, would i use shoot from brollies?

Just looking at polyboard as it seems cheap enough, and ideas how to best fix them together, never used it before

thanks
 
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Before, i rush out and spend more money that i don't have at the moment but equally want to get this sorted asap.

Is it recommended to use umbrellas instead of background/standard reflectors? If this is the case do i go for silver or white or shoot through?

If i do decide to purchase brollies then i guess they always need to be blocked off?

OR

If i have enough space, can i get away with using standard reflectors and moving them further from the background? my main concern is that i have a large area and a lot of my shoots are with children who run around, if i bring the lights too far forward and they are moving towards the back of the paper then i am going to lose them in the light

with the CWB earlier in the thread, does it look like the orange tint issue is resolved?


Thanks for everyones assistance on this.
 
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Stop buying stuff. You have enough kit to make this work.

I'll take a look at the pics and get a longer reply soon but at the moment you are getting all sorts of advice from lots of different people. Lots of this is down to taste and you don't need to follow all suggestions.

Polyboards are always useful if you have the space - you need something like this to go with them. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polyboard...raphy_Props&hash=item3a7302b0ee#ht_543wt_1156
 
1. Don't get umbrellas (or at least, not just for this) - you already have background reflectors and they will do the job perfectly well provided that you both position them and angle them correctly so that they light the background evenly and so that no light from them catches the subject. It actually looks worse than it is in your examples, because you've included a lot more background than you need to.
2. If you decide to ignore that advice and get them, get white reflective ones, nothing else will do.
3. Increase the distance from background to subject, it will hep.
4. With the subject further from the background, you will need to light a larger area of the background but you should still flag off the bits that you really don't need, to reduce both flare and wrap.
5. Use the absolute minimum of overexposure on the background.
6. Try to get the exposure right. On my calibrated screen, all of your shots look overexposed to me. Even if you're sure your exposure is right, experiment with shots at different aperture settings until you really are sure, then set the monitor brightness on your camera so that it matches what you're seeing on your (calibrated) computer monitor.
7. Try using a different camera if you can, to see whether or not there is a colour issue with that particular camera. Different cameras really can produce very different results from each other. I can't give you any advice on that because I know very little about cameras, the only small cameras I use are D3, D700 and S5 - other people will have much wider experience than me.
8. Don't worry about colour cast from the magnolia walls, they won't help but I don't think they will contribute enough colour contamination to make any difference in practical terms.
9. Like any other testing process, only change one thing at a time, i.e. make changes in the order I've listed them here, because if you change more than one thing at a time then you'll get unexpected results and won't know what caused them.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Stop buying stuff. You have enough kit to make this work.

I'll take a look at the pics and get a longer reply soon but at the moment you are getting all sorts of advice from lots of different people. Lots of this is down to taste and you don't need to follow all suggestions.

Polyboards are always useful if you have the space - you need something like this to go with them. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polyboard...raphy_Props&hash=item3a7302b0ee#ht_543wt_1156
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brill, thanks
 
Thanks Garry,

I am heading back to my studio to have a play with these settings, can you just confirm a few things before i head off

1. Don't get umbrellas (or at least, not just for this) - you already have background reflectors and they will do the job perfectly well provided that you both position them and angle them correctly so that they light the background evenly and so that no light from them catches the subject. It actually looks worse than it is in your examples, because you've included a lot more background than you need to.
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when i set these up, i switched the modelling lights on so that the light met in the middle of the paper background, i then metered these to F11, as i was planning on the key light being f8. i think i will try and move the background reflectors further away from the background but also going to try the standard reflectors to see if that makes a difference.

2. If you decide to ignore that advice and get them, get white reflective ones, nothing else will do.
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I will pass on this purchase at the moment.
 
donkeymusic said:
Thanks Garry,

I am heading back to my studio to have a play with these settings, can you just confirm a few things before i head off

when i set these up, i switched the modelling lights on so that the light met in the middle of the paper background, i then metered these to F11, as i was planning on the key light being f8. i think i will try and move the background reflectors further away from the background but also going to try the standard reflectors to see if that makes a difference.

I will pass on this purchase at the moment.
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The standard reflectors won't help with this, quite the reverse in fact.
There needs to be an overlap of light from the heads playing on the background, especially if they are not square to the background - the inverse square law reduces the light level as it get further from the flash head.

Take a look at this video in the Lencarta Learning Centre. It shows exactly how I set up a shot that's very similar to yours, and shows exactly how I meter it.
 
There's something very funny going on with the colours.

The pic of the girl holding the grey card - that card is grey. On the pull back it's orange. If your whibal is locked off and the lights are firing consistently it shouldn't shift. In fact the pullback is exactly what I'd expect with auto white balance - the magnolia walls confuse the sensor and it goes all orange. When you close in it gets better. FWIW your "custom white balance" one is slightly blue. Not hugely but enough to suggest that it wasn't balanced properly.

The exposure thing is a bit of a red herring. If your setup is neutrally balanced then the back wall should be a shade of grey (remembering that white is a shade of grey). But if you put too much light on it then it will be white regardless of what colour it is. Personally I'd turn the lights down a little so you can see what colour it is, balance the light until it's white ten increase the exposure until it's white. That's the b/g.

Now work on the subject. Put the grey card in place and turn one front light on and check that it remains grey. If it doesn't then swap to the other light. And so on (that would eliminate a rogue light that has shifted from the others - this can also happen with soft boxes as they age).

If all that checks out then you're looking for esoteric things like camera calibration but somehow I doubt it.

BTW I think in this case brollies would make things if anything worse - they would spill more light on the magnolia and possibly introduce contamination. Personally I'd move the b/g reflectors a little towards camera and a little inwards.

It's frustrating because I reckon this could take 5 mins to sort in person. Isn't Michael Sewell somewhere near you? He might pop in if you promise him tea and hobnobs.
 
JonathanRyan said:
There's something very funny going on with the colours.

The pic of the girl holding the grey card - that card is grey. On the pull back it's orange. If your whibal is locked off and the lights are firing consistently it shouldn't shift. In fact the pullback is exactly what I'd expect with auto white balance - the magnolia walls confuse the sensor and it goes all orange. When you close in it gets better. FWIW your "custom white balance" one is slightly blue. Not hugely but enough to suggest that it wasn't balanced properly.

The exposure thing is a bit of a red herring. If your setup is neutrally balanced then the back wall should be a shade of grey (remembering that white is a shade of grey). But if you put too much light on it then it will be white regardless of what colour it is. Personally I'd turn the lights down a little so you can see what colour it is, balance the light until it's white ten increase the exposure until it's white. That's the b/g.

Now work on the subject. Put the grey card in place and turn one front light on and check that it remains grey. If it doesn't then swap to the other light. And so on (that would eliminate a rogue light that has shifted from the others - this can also happen with soft boxes as they age).

If all that checks out then you're looking for esoteric things like camera calibration but somehow I doubt it.

BTW I think in this case brollies would make things if anything worse - they would spill more light on the magnolia and possibly introduce contamination. Personally I'd move the b/g reflectors a little towards camera and a little inwards.

It's frustrating because I reckon this could take 5 mins to sort in person. Isn't Michael Sewell somewhere near you? He might pop in if you promise him tea and hobnobs.
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Would compensate anyone for their time if they could pop in and advise
 
JonathanRyan said:
There's something very funny going on with the colours.

The pic of the girl holding the grey card - that card is grey. On the pull back it's orange. If your whibal is locked off and the lights are firing consistently it shouldn't shift. In fact the pullback is exactly what I'd expect with auto white balance - the magnolia walls confuse the sensor and it goes all orange. When you close in it gets better. FWIW your "custom white balance" one is slightly blue. Not hugely but enough to suggest that it wasn't balanced properly.

The exposure thing is a bit of a red herring. If your setup is neutrally balanced then the back wall should be a shade of grey (remembering that white is a shade of grey). But if you put too much light on it then it will be white regardless of what colour it is. Personally I'd turn the lights down a little so you can see what colour it is, balance the light until it's white ten increase the exposure until it's white. That's the b/g.

Now work on the subject. Put the grey card in place and turn one front light on and check that it remains grey. If it doesn't then swap to the other light. And so on (that would eliminate a rogue light that has shifted from the others - this can also happen with soft boxes as they age).

If all that checks out then you're looking for esoteric things like camera calibration but somehow I doubt it.

BTW I think in this case brollies would make things if anything worse - they would spill more light on the magnolia and possibly introduce contamination. Personally I'd move the b/g reflectors a little towards camera and a little inwards.

It's frustrating because I reckon this could take 5 mins to sort in person. Isn't Michael Sewell somewhere near you? He might pop in if you promise him tea and hobnobs.
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That's the trouble with people from doon sooth, they think that everywhere oop north is in the same village) According to the AA it's over 50 miles away:)
 
okay, think background is sorted and now tried the key light at f8, whats this like?

front by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

i think i was re testing white balance and forgot to select the correct one so still got orange tint
 
Edit: comment based on your previous pic. Just seen the one above and it looks blitzed, but that could be just more overall exposure.

Yes, much better. I think my earlier suggestion of using brollies for the background was probably a red herring. What you've got should be better if you play with the positioning.

To get the background as even as possible (it may be already, I can't tell) I would set one light at a time and use blinkies to show exactly how the hot-spots and fall-off lie. Get the exposure roughly right and then take shots at different ISOs which should give you an exact view in one third stop increments. Adjust the angle and distance, more distance will make it more even.

Then get some screens (Jonathan's link was perfect). You can use them to both flag off the background to reduce flare, and/or control wrap, according to distance. Also use subject distance to adjust wrap. You'll have a lot of control with that combo.
 
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