Sports photography tottaly bewhildered

cammiedh13

cammiedh13

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Cam
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Hey there people i went out to take pics of my friends on mountain bikes first time i had a go of my camera on manual using a 450d and 18-55 kit lens

i was having so much difficultly shoot the day was very bleek to

i had my apature wide open (f/4)
daylight white balance
had to bump the iso to 800/1600 because of the light
but i couldnt get a correct exposure said my shutter speed would have been to fast for it to be correct
but either way too slow a shutter speed wouldnt freeze the motion and stoping down would not allow enough light in
I tried to use the pop up flash but it seems to do a very 'good job' of burning the image out
i also couldnt seem to get the people sharp the were all out of focus

Im wondering where am i going wrong , what does it take to bright and shots that freeze the action well

Regards

Cam
 
for fast action sport - you need seriously good kit (and know how to use it) -or a lot of luck.
 
I generally use Tv mode for sports to lock shutter speed then camera handles aperture and occasionally ISO (unless dark where i manually lock 1600).

It IS possible to have over exposure in Av mode if too much light but ive never experienced that yet in the UK.

What camera mode where you shooting in?

If its saying too fast a shutter speed is required then the ISO is too high and needs to be reduced. If its the opposite than obviously the opposite of that is true. I'd be stunned if the in-built flash was any use unless you were 3ft from the action too.
 
I was shooting in Manual , i thought that the you would need a fast as possible shutter speed to capture the motion ? and that you would use a high iso inconjunction with a high a fast shutter speed to allow you to capture the motion ?
or am i getting the wrong end of the stick ?
 
depends what yo mean, were trying to 'freeze' the action, or have some motion blur to give an impression of speed?

Might be an idea to post a few with the exif data intact so people can see exactly what you got with what settings and advise you accordingly. ;)
 
cammiedh13 said:
but i couldnt get a correct exposure said my shutter speed would have been to fast for it to be correct
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand this bit. If you are getting overexposure, it won't be because the shutter speed is too fast, but probably because the aperture is too wide for that shutter speed. If you have selected a shutter speed which you feel is correct in order to freeze the action, then you need to adjust the aperture to match.

I would have thought if the day was "bleak" and you were using an aperture of f4, it would be difficult to over expose with a fast shutter speed.
 
Sorry i mean to freeze motion as is a rider in the middle of a jump pulling a trick

what im saying is when i went to choose a fast shutterspeed (1/125 -1/500) at at the widest apature (f4) it was always underexposed and dark ?

sorry for any confusion
 
cammiedh13 said:
Sorry i mean to freeze motion as is a rider in the middle of a jump pulling a trick

what im saying is when i went to choose a fast shutterspeed (1/125 -1/500) at at the widest apature (f4) it was always underexposed and dark ?

sorry for any confusion
Click to expand...

Ah, if underexposed, you need to raise the ISO.
 
I'd try shooting in AV Mode. With the lens wide open you're always going to get the fastest shutter speed you can in any prevailing light conditions. Also if you're not getting a fast enough shutter speed you have the option of increasing the ISO.
 
yeah although i had already the iso as high as it would go
but tv more is that shutter priortity?
 
TV is shutter priority. Canon insist on calling it Time Value instead of Shutter Priority, and instead of Aperture Priority they use Aperture Value. I think they do it to cause more confusion. ;)
 
If you had the ISO wound up and using flash ,would that not account for the burning out of the shots ,just a thought :shrug:
 
cammiedh13 said:
Sorry i mean to freeze motion as is a rider in the middle of a jump pulling a trick

what im saying is when i went to choose a fast shutterspeed (1/125 -1/500) at at the widest apature (f4) it was always underexposed and dark ?

sorry for any confusion
Click to expand...

As already mentioned, you need to up the ISO. If it was already as high as possible, and aperture wide open, and shutter speed as slow as you can get away with, then you have to resort to flash, but then you probably would need to drop the iso down if using manual settings, that would cause burning out otherwise. Using Tv or Av should, I pressume, allow the camera to adjust the flash accordingly too. :thinking:


and thankyou CT for the canon idiocyncracy reminder, Nikons use a very simple A or S ;)
 
also i will mention my camera goes too 1/4000th shutter , and 1600 iso
 
I was shooting rugby today - very poor light in the second half - ISO 3200 - ISO 6400 - 1/1000th @ f/4 mostly.
 
shutter speed 1/1000th??? what focal length?
 
i was shooting raw still the recovery wasnt good i couldnt bring it back kept saying -2 on the exposure , so it would prob have still been a few stops bellow , ill try shutter priority next time and report back (Y)
 
cammiedh13 said:
I was shooting in Manual , i thought that the you would need a fast as possible shutter speed to capture the motion ? and that you would use a high iso inconjunction with a high a fast shutter speed to allow you to capture the motion ?
or am i getting the wrong end of the stick ?
Click to expand...

You aren't trying to capture all the light you can find, you're trying to get the *correct* amount of light.

Yes to capture motion you need a high shutter speed.
There are 2 ways of getting the correct exposure once you accept that - by adjusting the aperture or adjusting the ISO (or in fact both...).

In full manual mode YOU have to decide the correct exposure (it will give you its best guess though by showing how over/under it thinks the image is). You do this by setting the aperture and ISO.

In Tv/Av mode its a little easier to start with as the camera can do both those for you.
 
cammiedh13 said:
i was shooting raw still the recovery wasnt good i couldnt bring it back kept saying -2 on the exposure , so it would prob have still been a few stops bellow , ill try shutter priority next time and report back (Y)
Click to expand...

-2 (and if flashing) means its over 2 stops underexposed.

How to get around this on full manual ? Open the aperture. However you may find at 1/1000th (very very fast for this sort of thing) even wide open it cant get enough light in. That means the ISO would need to be bumped up too.
For general outside conditions here at the moment chances are 1/1000th even full open aperture AND maximum iso would still under expose. Your only choice then is to reduce the shutter speed. Try 1/500th instead or maybe less.

Id recommend to start with trying Tv or Av mode to get the hang of it. Tv would be my suggestion - dial in the shutter speed and take note of the aperture value the camera is picking to get a feel for it.

An example for me this afternoon at Rugby. Cloudy with no flood lights. I need 1/500th shutter not to blur. However even on 1600 ISO and full open on my lens (f/5.6) the photos still under exposed by 2+ stops. That means worthless photos so i gave up before half time.
 
It's about balancing the flash (foreground exposure) so as to fill-in but not wash out... with the background (often under-expose it for more effect). Much easier to play with settings in digital SLR age.

Also .. range of built in flash is crap + if ambient light is very poor then will be hard to get the right balance in your sort of shooting scenario from one shot to the next (especially when in any auto flash mode).

Save up for 'proper' flasgun (and even more prefereable ... use it off-camera).
 
Unless it's very bright, you're going to need flash. And a lot of skill, and practise. There's an article on this in the current Feb edition of Practical Photography magazine. Great mountain bike shot on the cover :)

Richard.
 
OK first off my advice would be stick to manual and (sorry about this guys) ignore the advice to use AV or TV modes and I have very good reason for saying this.

DISSCLAIMER
I am not a manual freak who thinks everything should be done in Manual.. I use AV when needs must and I dont use Manual just for the sake of it.. however there are times when Manual is required and from what you describe you are doing then I would say Manual is the way


Your trying to photograph bikes doing tricks and jumps and turns... this means there jumping high and your shooting up at them.. the majority of your background will be the sky yes? Then in my opinion you need manual as the sky will screw up the exposure when in semi auto modes like AV and TV

OK so now we have you on manual you need to get your exposure. with fast shutter speed in mind you need to open up your lens as much as you can f2.8 would be nice but f4 if thats the best you can do. This isnt going to change so we do this first...

Then set your shutter to a minimum 500 to grab the action

Then point at either the concrete grey floor or some grass in the area you are shooting and set your iso so the exposure meter is center

IF you max out your iso or go above somehting your not happy with then try lowering the shutter but your at about minimum... depends on the size of your tackle (lens) :)

If you can do the above and get low iso .. say less than iso 400 then set your iso to 400 and up the shutter speed until you get the corect exposure (iso 400 is the canon reccomended for sports)

Now take a test shot and chimp (check the exposure and the picture) adjust slightly to taste

The above method rather depends on your taste, your equipment and your lens.. different cameras can handle different iso for example... the longer the lens the higher the minimum shutter you should have and stuff liek that.

Go shoot a lot and see what happens :)


I hope I expalined it right.. I know what i mean:)
 
awp said:
for fast action sport - you need seriously good kit (and know how to use it) -or a lot of luck.
Click to expand...

Herein lies the real problem---I suspect. Shooting sports outside in poor light needs specialist kit.The problem is almost certainly the lens.You will need something much faster and probably longer to give yourself half a chance of freezing action and providing a decent frame.Needs a fair degree of skill too.
If this sort of photography is your thing-----get yourself a fast telephoto---unfortunately they dont come cheap--and there is a learning curve. With the kit lens try sports mode and see what settings come up.It is unlikely to be up to the job though.
Pete.
 
I do some mountain biking photography. I spent a weekend with Seb Rogers and he taught me a whole lot about it.
Shoot in manual. If the rider is going to be close to the camera you can use fill in flash. Pop up the flash and then under-expose by 2/3ds of a stop. That should help balance out the image. That way you should be able to freeze the action (use a shutter speed of 1/100th or above - below this it can get a bit blurry). Also - follow the rider keep him in the correct position in the frame and move your camera to keep him in that position - then at the opportune moment - take the photo. If the rider is far away, then flash wont be much good - you've got to pan with the rider. Shutter speeds of 1/60th will be difficult - keep it higher than that. But you really dont need a super high shutter speed - honest.

A key part of getting a shot is to get the rider to look like he or she is riding fast, but for them to be going quite slow and steady - that way you are more likely to be able to pan and to get the timing right.
 
KIPAX said:
OK first off my advice would be stick to manual and (sorry about this guys) ignore the advice to use AV or TV modes and I have very good reason for saying this.

DISSCLAIMER
I am not a manual freak who thinks everything should be done in Manual.. I use AV when needs must and I dont use Manual just for the sake of it.. however there are times when Manual is required and from what you describe you are doing then I would say Manual is the way


Your trying to photograph bikes doing tricks and jumps and turns... this means there jumping high and your shooting up at them.. the majority of your background will be the sky yes? Then in my opinion you need manual as the sky will screw up the exposure when in semi auto modes like AV and TV

OK so now we have you on manual you need to get your exposure. with fast shutter speed in mind you need to open up your lens as much as you can f2.8 would be nice but f4 if thats the best you can do. This isnt going to change so we do this first...

Then set your shutter to a minimum 500 to grab the action

Then point at either the concrete grey floor or some grass in the area you are shooting and set your iso so the exposure meter is center

IF you max out your iso or go above somehting your not happy with then try lowering the shutter but your at about minimum... depends on the size of your tackle (lens) :)

If you can do the above and get low iso .. say less than iso 400 then set your iso to 400 and up the shutter speed until you get the corect exposure (iso 400 is the canon reccomended for sports)

Now take a test shot and chimp (check the exposure and the picture) adjust slightly to taste

The above method rather depends on your taste, your equipment and your lens.. different cameras can handle different iso for example... the longer the lens the higher the minimum shutter you should have and stuff liek that.

Go shoot a lot and see what happens :)


I hope I expalined it right.. I know what i mean:)
Click to expand...

This is the way I meter for sports shots, but I am usually shooting athletics so the subject is moving slower,but the principle is the same. The only thing I would add is use AI Servo focussing if you can.
 
awp said:
for fast action sport - you need seriously good kit (and know how to use it) -or a lot of luck.
Click to expand...

Sorry Andrew but Seriously Good Kit has nothing to do with it the 450D is perfectly capable of delivering on fast action sports its just a matter of practice so that the photographer develops the skills required
 
CaptainPenguin said:
Sorry Andrew but Seriously Good Kit has nothing to do with it the 450D is perfectly capable of delivering on fast action sports its just a matter of practice so that the photographer develops the skills required
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Also depends on what you call "serious kit". I use a Sony A700 and Sigma 50-500 lens for polo. That's f6.3 at the long end!!
 
Some serious kit would make a difference, but as long as you are aware of the limitations and work to the strengths of your kit, you can get some reasonable results.
 
gnirtS said:
f/2.8 lens id kill for with rugby. f/5.6 at 200mm is absolutely killing me.
Click to expand...

Very true, You don't need to have special equipment for sports if your indoors its important but outside if you have plenty of light you can get a away with a lot. Its about knowing your equipment. Lenses like the 70-200 are excellent for not only sports but alot of other things as well but its not impossible with the likes of the 50-500 sigma. Indoors these quick small primes are best 50mm, 85mm at 2.2 really allows you to freeze the action and keep noise to a minimum.
 
I don't know anything about Canon gear but it still stands - you need good capable fast equipment to have a chance with most sports. You often have to work in poor light and need fast shutter speeds - good high ISO performance and fast glass. Anything else is probably possible some of the time - I have to get the shots every time. Equipment is not everything - as has been said - the photographer also needs skill - which might come with practice.
 
awp said:
I don't know anything about Canon gear but it still stands - you need good capable fast equipment to have a chance with most sports. You often have to work in poor light and need fast shutter speeds - good high ISO performance and fast glass. Anything else is probably possible some of the time - I have to get the shots every time. Equipment is not everything - as has been said - the photographer also needs skill - which might come with practice.
Click to expand...

If you are a Pro and your livelihood depends on it then yes Serious cameras and fast glass are essential but for Amateur work good results can be had with basic kit its the acquisition of the skills through practice that counts.

I have taken all these with a 350D and 21 year old canon 70-210 f4 and i don't think they are bad and they are taken just for my pleasure and the club website

http://www.flickr.com/photos/captainpenguin/collections/72157607536130304/
 
Nothing wrong with these at all - you have the skill - although they mostly look like they were taken in fairly good light. As I said it's not all about equipment at all - maybe skill is more important?
 
The pros have to get the shots in all weather so need the D3/1DS Mk3 and the fast expensive glass,personally once the light drops and I cant get a shot I put the kit away and watch the match
 
Without seeing any of the shots Cam, it's difficult to advise what's gone wrong as we can't see what you were trying to get.

That said, I would tend to agree with Kipax's thought proceses in that you may have been shooting up into the air towards the sky rather than darker objects.

Without seeing what you're not happy with, it's all guess-work I'm afraid. Give us something to go on and I'm sure there'll be a load of us that can help.
 
Consider what ISO you can live with (noise level) and then decide what the slowest shutter speed you need, set at these and see what your camera says, if it says HI, you're in luck, up your shutter speed or lower your ISO. If it says LO, don't worry, you should be shooting in RAW anyway and you can get away with murder (almost) in PP. I suppose there will be many who disagree with me but Hey We all have our ways! Hope this helps.

Cheers Paul
 
CaptainPenguin said:
The pros have to get the shots in all weather so need the D3/1DS Mk3 and the fast expensive glass,personally once the light drops and I cant get a shot I put the kit away and watch the match
Click to expand...

Exactly - I don't get these choices - just have to get the pics no matter what. Hence shooting with a couple of D3. :)
 
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