So Turkey claim they just shot down a military jet (suspected Russian)

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JonathanRyan

JonathanRyan

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That's bad in so many ways......

(Video from Turkish news agency which released it to Reuters.)

 
a accident waiting to happen ,and i think most of us know in reality where turkeys real allegiance lies .happy christmas was H.G.Wells a time traveller ??
 
'k Russia have said it's one of theirs. Pilots got out but it's unknown if they are OK.
 
neil_g said:
so them letting us and the US use an airbase there is just a ruse?
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no its part of a strategy playing both sides against the middle to get there own way ,they still haven't got over losing the ottoman empire
 
the black fox said:
i think most of us know in reality where turkeys real allegiance lies
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do we? Oh.

the black fox said:
no its part of a strategy playing both sides against the middle to get there own way ,they still haven't got over losing the ottoman empire
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Its not exactly clear where Turkey's allegiances lie, and like many things in the area theres no easy answer. But Ottoman empire. Really?

Its not the first time in recent years Turkey has shot down ( and had its own aircraft shot down) in that conflict
 
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neil_g said:
okay..

would you like some of my tinfoil?
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yeah why not its getting near christmas ,and it has other subtle uses for turkeys ,WHOA theres the link tinfoil+turkey= ww3

we are all doomed i tell you DOOMED :exit:
 
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Blue on blue happens in war - it doesnt mean that russia is going to invade turkey or that nato will get dragged in against russia or any of that conspiracy theorist cobblers
 
It will be interesting to see how this unfold. I can't imagine Russia brushing it off lightly.

Better stock up those provisions and go high in the mountains :)
 
The Russians are confirming it was one of their SU24's.
As Russia and the US have now decided that they are both fighting ISIL, that makes Russia an ally, and it is not usual for allies to shoot down each other's planes, even if they are close to or actually infringing your airspace.
When was the last time the UK shot down a Russian reconaissance aircraft over UK airspace?
Turkey are a loose cannon, and should never have been invited to join NATO in the first place.
 
big soft moose said:
Blue on blue happens in war - it doesnt mean that russia is going to invade turkey or that nato will get dragged in against russia or any of that conspiracy theorist cobblers
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It certainly does happen, like when US A10's strafed our personnel carriers - that was an accident.
This was no accident.
 
andy700 said:
It certainly does happen, like when US A10's strafed our personnel carriers - that was an accident.
This was no accident.
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strictly speaking the strafing wasnt an accident either - the pilots meant to do it , they were just confused about the identity of what they were attacking... (unlike say the americans hitting the chinese embassy in belgrade which was a genuine accident as they were aiming at the other side of the street)

Pretty much the same here - the turkish air defence was responding to an unidentified intruder which wasnt responding to instructions - they didnt deliberately set out to shoot down a russian plane

rathher like the incident in the late 80s where the US navy shot down an iranian airliner after mistaking it for an attacking fighter jet
 
andy700 said:
When was the last time the UK shot down a Russian reconaissance aircraft over UK airspace?
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The aim of the QRA is to reach the bears before they reach UK airspace. Are the typhoons from Coninsby/Lossie allowing bears into UK airspace these days?

Shooting down a warplane on an unauthorised overflight of sovereign airspace is not in the same league as a "blue on blue ". It will all hinge on which side of a line on the map the aircraft was on at the time the action was taken.
 
andy700 said:
Turkey are a loose cannon, and should never have been invited to join NATO in the first place.
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Ironically the reason turkey were invited into Nato was that strategically speaking Nato needed the air bases to threaten the Warsaw Pact southern flank and also project air power into the gulf (we also wanted the naval bases on the south coast of the black sea in order to threaten warsaw pact access to the mediteranean via the bosphorous)
 
Oh and just when you think it can't get worse, Al-Jazeera are saying one of the pilots has been "captured".
 
JonathanRyan said:
I may be missing something here but the news reports really make it look like the Turks knew it was Russian (or at least likely to be Russian) when they fired.
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according to the reports I saw they said it was unidentified when they fired - tbh we'd do the same thing , if there was an SU24 heading into british airspace refusing to obey instructions or identify itself - the typhoons would shott it down it almost certainly.

also the pilots being 'captured' doesnt mean a lot, - they'll be handed back pretty much as Gary Powers was during the cold war
 
big soft moose said:
according to the reports I saw they said it was unidentified when they fired - tbh we'd do the same thing , if there was an SU24 heading into british airspace refusing to obey instructions or identify itself - the typhoons would shott it down it almost certainly.
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Maybe so. But this jet didn't just pop up from nowhere. People who are technically allies of Turkey have made it pretty clear they are flying in the immediate area and Turkey can be pretty sure that "the bad guys" (whatever that currently means - it's becoming rather complex) don't have anything like this. So if one pops up then it's very likely it's an ally not a hostile.

Also, Russia says it was in Syria at the time.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Maybe so. But this jet didn't just pop up from nowhere. People who are technically allies of Turkey have made it pretty clear they are flying in the immediate area and Turkey can be pretty sure that "the bad guys" (whatever that currently means - it's becoming rather complex) don't have anything like this. So if one pops up then it's very likely it's an ally not a hostile..
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I seem to recall hearing that IS were carrying out trial flights with captured iraqi jets (there's a pleasant thought an IS air force) that aside , does the fact that someone is fighting a common enemy make them an ally necessarily ? would we allow russian planes to fly through uk air space without consent because we are both fighting IS ?
 
big soft moose said:
I seem to recall hearing that IS were carrying out trial flights with captured iraqi jets (there's a pleasant thought an IS air force) that aside , does the fact that someone is fighting a common enemy make them an ally necessarily ? would we allow russian planes to fly through uk air space without consent because we are both fighting IS ?
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Turkey are still a member of NATO. At least for the time being.

Also, I've heard that fighter pilots' fondest wish is for a bunch of amateurs to get hold of attack jets. I suspect their fun wouldn't last long.
 
big soft moose said:
would we allow russian planes to fly through uk air space without consent because we are both fighting IS ?
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Or indeed let their submarines run around off the coast of Scotland?

French patrol planes are scouring the seas off Scotland for a Russian submarine after Britain was forced to call on allies for help because it has scrapped its own sub-hunting aircraft.
Just one of many sources

The whole bloody thing is just crazy, there'll be "Reds under the bed" headlines shortly..
Who say's history doesn't repeat itself?
 
JonathanRyan said:
Turkey are still a member of NATO. At least for the time being.
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indeed - but russia arent so why should Turkey consider them an ally just because they are fighting IS

JonathanRyan said:
Also, I've heard that fighter pilots' fondest wish is for a bunch of amateurs to get hold of attack jets. I suspect their fun wouldn't last long.
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This is true - and tbh the jets in the pictures in that article don't look very flyable anyway - but it does mean there is potential for an inbound plane to be an unfriendly especially if it won't identify itself (and the iraqi air frames were nearly all migs and sukhois )
 
Cobra said:
Or indeed let their submarines run around off the coast of Scotland?

French patrol planes are scouring the seas off Scotland for a Russian submarine after Britain was forced to call on allies for help because it has scrapped its own sub-hunting aircraft.
Just one of many sources

The whole bloody thing is just crazy, there'll be "Reds under the bed" headlines shortly..
Who say's history doesn't repeat itself?
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To be fair we wouldnt allow any nationality to intrude on our airspsace without permission - even if the plane were from an allied country we would still expect it to identify itself (probabbly via IFF) and to obey instructions from our controllers
 
big soft moose said:
indeed - but russia arent so why should Turkey consider them an ally just because they are fighting IS
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You're right - I was getting muddled between NATO and UN Security Council. I guess there's no particular reason for Turkey to pretend to like Russia.
 
Also the syrian situation being a complicated mess , along the turkish border in the area the jet was shot down you've got 'turkmen' ethnic rebels fighting the assad regime , variously wanting either autonomy or to join Turkey - if the russians are carrying out airstrikes on them in support of the assad faction (and it has been previously reported that russians were hitting the FSA instead of ISIL in other areas) then its easy to see how Turkey might not see that as a friendly act.
 
Cobra said:
Or indeed let their submarines run around off the coast of Scotland?
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big soft moose said:
To be fair we wouldnt allow any nationality to intrude on our airspsace without permission
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That's an awful lot of red bull they are drinking ;)
You kinda missed the point I was getting at.
Will they torpedo the sub if / when they find it?

The interview I heard was that each Sub has its own signature, by patrolling off shore, if indeed they are ( as its yet still largly unconfirmed)
We send out a seeker sub or 3, and the Ruskies can tell by listening exactly what they are / what we have.

Its the cold war all over again.
 
The Russian aircraft was a Su 24 and it was shot down by a Turkish F16.
Reports of two parachutes seen. The wreckage is in Syria, but that does not prove where the shooting took place.
The area of Syria concerned is populated by Turkmens (Syrians of Turkish descent).
Turkey had already complained to the UN about Russia bombing Turkmen villages in Syria.
Turkey claims the Su24 was in Turkish airspace.
Russia claims the Su24 was in Syrian airspace.

Thank goodness it is all nice and simple.
 
Cobra said:
That's an awful lot of red bull they are drinking ;)
You kinda missed the point I was getting at.
Will they torpedo the sub if / when they find it?

The interview I heard was that each Sub has its own signature, by patrolling off shore, if indeed they are ( as its yet still largly unconfirmed)
We send out a seeker sub or 3, and the Ruskies can tell by listening exactly what they are / what we have.

Its the cold war all over again.
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I'd say its doubtful - during the cold war the usual protocol if we found a warsaw pact sub in our waters (or if they found a nato sub in theirs) was to drop a bunch of noise makers on it in order to let them know they'd been found and that they really ought to p*** off pronto

either that or to call in surface vessels to continually ping it with active sonar until it surfaced

of course the other option is to trail along behind it and record all its sonar charecteristics etc so they think they are learning about us, but really we are learning about them...

either way you don't get into sinking ships (or usually shooting down aircraft) unless you think they are about to comit an overtly hostile act
 
big soft moose said:
of course the other option is to trail along behind it and record all its sonar charecteristics
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The problem at the moment is they can't find it,
so that suggested that either somehow it hiding somewhere, and intel gathering, or someone is getting twitchy and it doesn't exist at all.
Which ties back into the OP, Why are the Russians becoming more active at "home" and abroad?
The question is kinda worrying and most rhetorical.
 
Cobra said:
The problem at the moment is they can't find it,
.
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or they know exacly where it but want the russians to think they can't find it ;)
 
Cobra said:
Well if the Ruskies read TP we are screwed !
:D
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Big vlad is watching you (although i was refering to the world media where presumably you got your info from - unless you do the pest contrrol for SOSUS and someone has been gossiping ;) )
 
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