So Tottenham burns!

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Dear, oh dear:

Taken from the BBC news website:

1123: BBC Monitoring A Libyan TV presenter who claims he can talk to spirits and mobilize them in support of Colonel Gaddafi, says Libya was "proud" of the rioters in England. Speaking in English on state-run Al-Jamahiriyah TV, Yusuf Shakir said people in Libya would hold a demonstration to show their solidarity. "We support you black power in Tottenham," he said.

:bonk:
 
I thought he came off well. The additional resources, the promise of action against these thugs, the promise to increase arrests, the promise to speed up the justice system to ensure people are dealt with quickly and finally the warning to the youth 'if you're old enough to commit the crimes you are old enough to face the consequences'.

I see the media has already started having a go at the poor police.

Basically then Dave, to sum up what you said in the press interview in English, you haven't got a f'ing clue what to do.........
But Parliament has been recalled on Thursday, so everything will be ok then.

Action against the thugs.......
IF you can catch them, which you won't, and IF they are caught, they'll go to court, get yet another ASBO to their collection, or a £20 fine, or a suspended sentence.

This country is a disgrace.
Thanks to plonkers like David Cameron.
To think I have recently introduced two children to this dump sickens me :'(
 
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Things will soon settle down, Boris Johnson will arrive in London this afternoon, AND parliament has been recalled for Thu:D
 
Why would the rioters stop? They have nothing to fear from our police force, or our armed forces. They're causing chaos in their thousands, and 99% will walk away without even being arrested.

There is no respect, and no fear or respect for our own forces, and there ****ing well should be.

Sort it out and show them who's in charge, fed up with this *******s
 
Sod it, I can't stay out of this.

Exactly, it didn't work. Those that deserved it didn't alter their behaviour after receiving it and those that didn't deserve it but got it because the teacher was having a bad day, lost it and lashed out at them (and I'm sorry to any teachers reading, but I witnessed this happen, indeed it happened to me, in a "good school" as well. When the teacher turns bright red, picks you up by the hair and starts ranting they are not acting rationally) just ended up resenting the people that were supposed to be educating them rather than respecting them.

Right, another post criticising authority. What would you suggest should be done to regain control?
 
Basically then Dave, to sum up what you said in the press interview in English, you haven't got a f'ing clue what to do.........
But Parliament has been recalled on Thursday, so everything will be ok then.

Action against the thugs.......
IF you can catch them, which you won't, and IF they are caught, they'll go to caught, get yet another ASBO to their collection, or a £20 fine, or a suspended sentence.

This country is a disgrace.
Thanks to plonkers like David Cameron.
To think I have recently introduced two children to this dump sickens me :'(

In fairness Andy that's not what he said. He said they had agreed measures to deal with the violence including an almost three fold increase in officers on the street. I have hope that they can calm things down with overwhelming numbers but I'm sure they have a plan B.

I agree the country doesn't seem to be going in a good direction, this has been the case for a long time. Labour, Conservative or Liberal you'd be looking at the same response. I think part of the problem is this political point scoring, rather than them all working together to do what's best for us all.
 
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In fairness Andy that's not what he said. He said they had agreed measures to deal with the violence including an almost three fold increase in officers on the street. I have hope that they can calm things down with overwhelming numbers but I'm sure they have a plan B.

I agree the country doesn't seem to be going in a good direction, this has been the case for a long time. Labour, Conservative or Liberal you'd be looking at the same response. I think part of the problem is this political point scoring, rather than them all working together to do what's best for us all.

Yeah but he's still a plonker :D
It is true though. You can have 10 times as many officers on duty, but the scumbags still get treated the same. They need to be beaten, water cannons, rubber bullets etc. Taking people to court these days just doesn't work. There's too many people laughing at victims of crime.

The crims of the country are winning the battle every day.
Can't the bloody government see that :bang:
 
I have not read this whole thread and I may be repeating what's been said but in my opinion it was only a matter of time before the youth of today realised that they can basically do whatever they want and no one can touch them.

Will all the do-gooders and political correctness around there is basically no control over today's kids. I know some teachers were heavy handed with caning etc but as soon as all the was banned and people shunning smacking (the backside - not beating) kids it was a slippery slope. Yeah its been said by many but in my generation of kids there were good kids and bad but the bad kids knew if they did wrong and got caught they were going to get some serious punishment. Either off their parents (smacked backside) or from school (caning etc) and sometimes both. That was usually enough to deter them or make them think twice.

Violence in classrooms did happen but was rare and dealt with quickly. These days the kids assault the teachers and have no regard for authority as we can see on the news and the streets.

As for today's troubles I say get the water cannons out and let the police get in their without fear of later being sued or dragged over the coals for saying or doing the wrong thing, the police are scared to act
 
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Is there anything similar to the Riot Act, 1714, on the statue book? If not, why not?

Jean

Nope - nothing like it remains on the statute book Jean.

The purpose of reading the Riot Act was to give the persons assembled one hour to disperse. If they didn't do so then they committed the full blown offence of Riot which was a felony. The Criminal Law Act 1967 swept away felonies and misdemeanours replacing them with arrestable and non -arrest able offences and rendering The Riot Act obsolete although it remained on the statute book till 1973.
 
Why would the rioters stop? They have nothing to fear from our police force, or our armed forces.

well eventually they'll get tired - all that fighting day after day will take it out of them especially as they arent used to doing a good days work ;)

even more cynically eventually the drugs gangs will shut the riots down because it cant be good for buisness all this disruption and police on the streets etc - it'll certainly put the middle clases off from coming into town to score :lol:
 
Nope - nothing like it remains on the statute book Jean.

The purpose of reading the Riot Act was to give the persons assembled one hour to disperse. If they didn't do so then they committed the full blown offence of Riot which was a felony. The Criminal Law Act 1967 swept away felonies and misdemeanours replacing them with arrestable and non -arrest able offences and rendering The Riot Act obsolete although it remained on the statute book till 1973.

doesnt the criminal justice act 1989 ( I think) criminalise a gathering whee more than four participants have arrived by car ? or something like that - it was intended for use against ravers but its equally operable against nasty little scrotes
 
I have not read this whole thread and I may be repeating what's been said but in my opinion it was only a matter of time before the youth of today realised that they can basically do whatever they want and no one can touch them.

Will all the do-gooders and political correctness around there is basically no control over today's kids. I know some teachers were heavy handed with caning etc but as soon as all the was banned and people shunning smacking (the backside - not beating) kids it was a slippery slope. Yeah its been said by many but in my generation of kids there were good kids and bad but the bad kids knew if they did wrong and got caught they were going to get some serious punishment. Either off their parents (smacked backside) or from school (caning etc) and sometimes both. That was usually enough to deter them or make them think twice.

Violence in classrooms did happen but was rare and dealt with quickly. These days the kids assault the teachers and have no regard for authority as we can see on the news and the streets.

As for today's troubles I say get the water cannons out and let the police get in their without fear of later being sued or dragged over the coals for saying or doing the wrong thing, the police are scared to act

Where is this idea stemming from that the police are afraid to act for fear of being held accountable?
 
Where is this idea stemming from that the police are afraid to act for fear of being held accountable?

Well these days the police are constantly being scrutinised and they have to be very careful to abide with the political correctness. An ex-head of the police was saying they have to be very careful what they say or do.
 
Sod it, I can't stay out of this.



Right, another post criticising authority. What would you suggest should be done to regain control?

Why can't we criticize authority? The day that stops is when we become North Korea.
 
Where is this idea stemming from that the police are afraid to act for fear of being held accountable?

You held them accountable for shooting Mark Duggan.

You held them accountable for "unjustified" shootings

You held them accountable for dealing with a 16 year old girl.

You held them accountable for stop and search

The idea could be stemming from you.
 
Why can't we criticize authority? The day that stops is when we become North Korea.

You can. But you also need to accept some responsibility and say if something isn't right how you would fix it, not just criticise it.

Edit: I thought you might at least have understood that given you suggested community service. I might not agree with that but it was an option.
 
Why can't we criticize authority? The day that stops is when we become North Korea.

We have every right to criticise and question authority... but in a similar vein, why can't people observe authority as well? Just because they don't agree with something, it doesn't make it correct to do any of what's happened. Right from the word go. The guy had a gun. The 16 yr old was hurling stuff at the police. And as for what's followed... That's just wanton lawlessness and the desire to cause as much criminal damage as possible. All of them know the difference between right and wrong, and when innocent peoples' lives are being threatened or they're being robbed of their own possessions, it becomes a slightly different matter, especially when it's on this scale...

This isn't a police state... but others seem quite happy to make it exactly the opposite - mob rule...
 
doesnt the criminal justice act 1989 ( I think) criminalise a gathering whee more than four participants have arrived by car ? or something like that - it was intended for use against ravers but its equally operable against nasty little scrotes

There are still plenty of offences covering these situations Pete. Riot still remains an offence - it just requires 12 or more persons with a common purpose, but the Riot Act is no longer read - the purpose of which was to absolve those quelling it (or assisting) from responsibility for any injuries caused to rioters in the process.

There are also offences of violent disorder and affray.
 
Well these days the police are constantly being scrutinised and they have to be very careful to abide with the political correctness. An ex-head of the police was saying they have to be very careful what they say or do.

What political correctness is this they have to abide by?
 
What political correctness is this they have to abide by?

Were you been living the last decade ?

The political correctness is everywhere, everyday there are stories of stupid decisions made so not to upset or offend this person or that person. They even debated changing the name of Christmas to 'the winter festival' so not to offend non Christians :bang:

So the police have this on a day to day basis and its in the minds when dealing with any situation as it will all be dragged up later
 
You held them accountable for shooting Mark Duggan.

You held them accountable for "unjustified" shootings

You held them accountable for dealing with a 16 year old girl.

You held them accountable for stop and search

The idea could be stemming from you.

I don't think you seem to know what accountable means.
 
The wishy washy nonsense started earlier than Labour though. Started when they stopped having corporal punishment in schools. Think it was a Tory lot that introduced that. Not that it worked as the same people would be caned, repeatedly!

No, I don't think it worked either. I went to a pretty decent school and we didn't have too many problems, but corporal punishment was still used. I think it was pretty pointless. Most of us just saw it as an opportunity to gain bragging rights, a chance to show your peers that you were "tough" enough to take it. Seriously though, it stung, but didn't hurt enough to be any sort of real deterrent.

My old man was a Glaswegian, from working class stock. He had very firm ideas of right and wrong, set a good example and was one of the finest men I've ever known. He couldn't have cared less if I got the cane/belt for smoking behind the bike sheds, being cheeky or forgetting my gym kit. These were just misdemeanours - rites of passage - but he'd have been very disappointed if I'd been caught lying or stealing, and I would have felt that I was letting him down if I'd behaved like that. That would have been a deterrent, if I'd ever been tempted.
 
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I'd also be interested to hear how people honestly felt about the riots in Brixton in 1981 and the Poll Tax riots? Oh, and various assorted May Day Altercations. Maybe some of you were there.

1981 - Check
Poll Tax - Check
May Day - Check


The problem is that you are comparing chalk and cheese.

The student demos (inc 26th March), The Poll Tax riots (to an extent) and May Day demos are all politically motivated actions with forethought and planning.

The Brixton Riots (the whole series inc Toxteth etc) and those of the last few days are a different beast entirely. Yes there is a political spark point, but after that it is plain criminal violence accompanied by mob mentality.

The atmosphere is different; it is far more feral (my word of the week), infinitely more dangerous and completely out of control.

Last night I was doing my job, and for the first time I was scared - I certainly haven't felt that at a demo before. Admittedly it was partially my own fault. I wanted pictures of an area that wasn't already media saturated, so myself and a friend (also ex Army) went into Peckham in advance of the Police deployment. I know S. London very very well, and I know what areas like this are capable of (I lived on the dodgy side of Camberwell for quite some time) and despite that it still shook me.

As has been pointed out in the media (and on here) the guys kicking off didn't give two hoots about whether their faces were masked or not - it simply didn't matter to them. It was outright break down of law and order, and the scariest part of it was the breadth and width that it was spread across London. Previous riots have been centralised and containable; these were not, and it is that point that is the most worrying.

I drove my mate home to Ilford at the end of the night and we passed through incident after incident. Walworth Rd (which hasn't really been reported on) was trashed from end to end and only two Police wagons were available to deploy - that story was repeated everywhere. There have been joking references elsewhere to Mad Max and The Warriors - that is precisely what it felt like travelling through London.

I know of several agency photographer (Getty, AFP etc), one of whom is on here occasionally, who had to resort to using the mobile phone cameras, because it was just to dangerous to use proper kit; I might have done so myself, if my own one hadn't been snatched earlier in the evening.


The solution? No idea presently.

It isn't the Army because they just aren't scaled up to that role at the moment.

Personally I think that it is just a question of battening down the hatches until the heat passes over, and then finding a solution later.

Make no mistake, this could potentially be a very, very dangerous situation; because if it continues and some mental idiot manges to coordinate the subclasses (and I use that word objectively) then true insurrection is not outside the realms of possibility. With a rational head on, I don't think that will be the case, because it's just not in the nature of this country, but it is flash points such as these that have lead to revolutions in the past; think 1917 and 1792, both political revolts that were taken over by mob rule.
 
Were you been living the last decade ?

The political correctness is everywhere, everyday there are stories of stupid decisions made so not to upset or offend this person or that person. They even debated changing the name of Christmas to 'the winter festival' so not to offend non Christians :bang:

So the police have this on a day to day basis and its in the minds when dealing with any situation as it will all be dragged up later

Well said. The BIG difference here is that the police have rules and laws that they have to abide by, whereas the scum causing all the damage clearly don't give a **** about that...
 
You can. But you also need to accept some responsibility and say if something isn't right how you would fix it, not just criticise it.

Edit: I thought you might at least have understood that given you suggested community service. I might not agree with that but it was an option.

The solution would be to deploy more police onto the streets, which is being done. The solution is not deploying an army, which is mostly abroad doing a more important job anyway, onto the streets to take pot shots at 13 year olds stealing xbox games from Currys.
 
Sod it, I can't stay out of this.



Right, another post criticising authority. What would you suggest should be done to regain control?

The problem dod is that people like that dont have an idea. All they do is spout on about how we should be nice and not use violence
 
I don't think you seem to know what accountable means.

Right matey - you've thrown some arguments out and had some valid responses back, but from most of what I've seen of your opinions you are living with your head up a part of your anatomy that is rather smelly.

The Stop and Search claim for last night's actions is completely bogus to name one single thing. The Hackney kick off was planned well in advance, as the local shops (especially the Jewellers) was being scoped out as early as 10:00 yesterday morning, including the strength of the shutters and the quality of the locks. The S&S was an excuse - nothing more.

I'm going to make you an offer:

I'll be out tonight, probably from 18:00 onwards depending on what happens, and you are more than welcome to join me to find out what is really going on. Please feel free to bring your nice (no doubt shiny) Leica with you, to capture all the action.

Maybe once you've actually stood in the front line, rather than denting your armchair with your overly ample posterior, you will be able to take onboard the reality of the current situation.
 
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The solution would be to deploy more police onto the streets, which is being done. The solution is not deploying an army, which is mostly abroad doing a more important job anyway, onto the streets to take pot shots at 13 year olds stealing xbox games from Currys.

And then what? There are police on the streets and its still going on. As has been said before, the liberal human rights brigade has got us where we are now: Offenders blaming everyone but themselves for offending, no proper punishment so that there is no incentive to stay out of trouble, its a game to these people. The most they will get is an asbo and a visit from a social worker or something.

I would much rather they take pot shots and some thieving 13yo rioter than see innocent families burnt out their homes.
 
I haven’t read the whole thread in detail, so forgive me if this has been discussed

Have you guys talked about the organised crime that have presumably instigated these riots?

I didn’t get why, when I first heard. (I’ve been on holiday) …until I found out who was shot by the police last week or so…think of him as a ‘godfather’ of the modern criminal underworld.
So essentially the criminal underworld are saying to the police, ‘You shot our main man by breaking the ‘unspoken crime/law rules’ and this is us showing you what we can do’

So the question surely is …What route should our government take to counter the power of that instigation of our ‘near lost’ and alliance searching youngsters?

If a small majority of our youth have so little in their lives that they can be cajoled into riot so easily, by apparently using the blackberry messaging system, then what sort of ‘spin’ could be used to counter?

Forget street counter measures, more police., blah blah… What we need is skilled and experienced spin doctors to directly counter the information being generated and bring this small minority of our youth back to the civil side and inspire them that the rewards and good future that our route can proved, are worth it.
 
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The solution would be to deploy more police onto the streets, which is being done. The solution is not deploying an army, which is mostly abroad doing a more important job anyway, onto the streets to take pot shots at 13 year olds stealing xbox games from Currys.

This would be the same Police you distrust and disrespect would it? And don't reply with "where did I say that" because your opinion is blatantly obvious.

I'm really quite disappointed with your solution here, it's pretty illogical given your views, but let's say we do get more of them onto the streets. What do we allow them to do? These thugs are acting with apparent impunity remember.

I don't think we should shoot them either but where do you draw the line? Water cannon? Plastic bullets? A stiff talking to?

Given that this only loosely has anything to do with the shooting of Duggan (?) how much tolerance do you think should be extended to these opportunistic criminals?
 
Guys - stop feeding the troll. Laudrup is the worst sort of whinging stirrer - critical of everyone and everything, but as usual his type have no answers -only brickbats. We don't know anything about him and he refuses to tell us.

Ignore him. ;)
 
I don't think we should shoot them either but where do you draw the line? Water cannon? Plastic bullets? A stiff talking to?

Well, Water cannons, tear gas, and plastic bullets are used here. I must say it seems pretty damned effective. Generally any unrest is mopped up in a couple of hours. This last 1st of May the police arrested over 400 rioters in Zürich, and they were still home in time for tea.
 
I'm going to make you an offer:

I'll be out tonight, probably from 18:00 onwards depending on what happens, and you are more than welcome to join me to find out what is really going on. Please feel free to bring your nice (no doubt shiny) Leica with you, to capture all the action.
.

Nice - but i'm not sure taking a pc halfwit with you is a going to benefit your own safety, you'll be trying to beat feet from a flash point and he'll be standing arround wanting to "understand the reasons why" they are beating the crap out of you and stealing all your gear.

Joking aside you be careful out there tonight, blue
 
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