So Tottenham burns!

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not watched too much news of late, and not read the 77 posts above..... however, please tell me if i am wrong.

1) Bad guy shoots cop - though by some sort of miracle the bullet hits his radio so as of now he is critical but not fatal.

2) Armed cops fatally shoot aforementioned bad guy

3) There is public outrage and demonstration at 2) which subsequently turns into a riot.


Am i being dim or why do people think there is a legitimate reason to protest at this, let alone riot?
 
Sorry, but race does come into it..

Bradford
Leeds
Birmingham
Burnley
Tottenham

........ Fact! - init!

Edit: at matty's post
 
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Laudrup said:
When you have so many people who distrust the police down there due to direct dealings with them I don't find it surprising their suspicions and angers are aroused when these shootings happen.
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if you really think everyone there has had direct dealings as you suggest with police i think youre very naive..
 
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Laudrup said:
When you have so many people who distrust the police down there due to direct dealings with them I don't find it surprising their suspicions and angers are aroused when these shootings happen.
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yeah but the reason people are routinely stopped and searched in tottenham when they fit the criminal profile is because many of them are criminals

If Mr Duggan was such a civil assett what was he doing with a hand gun ?

and how about all the shootings that happen down their due to criminal gunfire ? - you dont see people marching/rioting in the streets about that.

Also do you live down there , or are you one of the liberal armchair class who feels in theory that the police must be to blame on principal ?
 
Splog said:
Sorry, but race does come into it..

Bradford
Leeds
Birmingham
Burnley
Tottenham

........ Fact! - init!

Edit: at matty's post
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Its more about poverty than race - there are well off black folks down here , but they arent rioting in the streets , and in tottenham not all the rioters were black - many of them were our own anglo saxon scrotes seizing any excuse for a ruck and some theiving
 
Laudrup said:
When you have so many people who distrust the police down there due to direct dealings with them I don't find it surprising their suspicions and angers are aroused when these shootings happen.
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And had the victim been an innocent, law-abiding member of society you'd be right. However when the best defence that his supporters can offer is that he may not have had time to draw his own weapon before being shot then I'd be most surprised if the majority of reasonable people wouldn't think, to use the Glasgow vernacular, "hell mend him",or in other words, he got what he deserved.
 
matty said:
that, with the greatest respect, is *******s. why bring race into it??
Anyone chucking stones at the police, or having a firearm, or rioting, or looting, is fair game - black white pink or bloody purple with yellow spots. there is NO reason justification for rioting, destruction and theft on that scale.

Im not talking about the police being too lenient either, im talking about society in general for the last 18 years - liberal wishywashy ******** has taken the power to discipline from schools and to a lesser extent parents and left us with near feral gangs of thugs and morons on the streets. Parents sat at home with no jobs teaching kids to be slack spongers. its shameful.
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Aren't the police something like 7 times more likely to stop and search you for being black? I can see how that could get tiresome very quickly if you happened to live there. Maybe it is the police who should leave race out of it?

This reaction seems to stem from much more than that man being shot dead.
 
Photo Plod said:
They aren't authorised for deployment outside of Northern Ireland by the Home Secretary. We have them, but we can't use them.
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Someone needs to have a quick word in HomeSec's ear then!
 
Laudrup said:
Aren't the police something like 7 times more likely to stop and search you for being black? I can see how that could get tiresome very quickly if you happened to live there. Maybe it is the police who should leave race out of it?

This reaction seems to stem from much more than that man being shot dead.
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But how much of the crime in that area is commited by young black men ( the answer being most of it) so if you're a young black man loitering with intent you can hardly be suprised when you get stopped, if the police are looking for a perpetrator who's described as being black , early twenties, and wearing a hoody last seen on the edge of a predominantly black ghetto its hardly reasonable to expect that 50% of the people they stop will be middle aged and white

and if you're a young man (of any colour) with a 9mm in your jeans and a bad attitude loitering with intent you can be that suprised when the police shoot you rather than giving you a chance to kill them first
 
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big soft moose said:
Its more about poverty than race - there are well off black folks down here , but they arent rioting in the streets , and in tottenham not all the rioters were black - many of them were our own anglo saxon scrotes seizing any excuse for a ruck and some theiving
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It's nothing to do with poverty! .... Yes! I do agree there were a few Anglo Saxon scrotes.. You can say 'white'.. it's easier.
 
Laudrup said:
Aren't the police something like 7 times more likely to stop and search you for being black? I can see how that could get tiresome very quickly if you happened to live there. Maybe it is the police who should leave race out of it?

This reaction seems to stem from much more than that man being shot dead.
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what has that got to do with torching tottenham and looting? have a look at some of the photos, plenty of white folk in those pictures. Race is just an excuse.

Youre trying to justify the riots, there is NO justification, why keep trying to find it?
 
Laudrup said:
Aren't the police something like 7 times more likely to stop and search you for being black? I can see how that could get tiresome very quickly if you happened to live there. Maybe it is the police who should leave race out of it?

This reaction seems to stem from much more than that man being shot dead.
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I don't know if you've been watching the coverage on the news, but I didn't see 7 times as many caucasian people in any of the footage.........
 
Laudrup said:
Well what supposedly acted as the catalyst? Police attacking a 16 year old girl. What did the police think would happen as a result of that? It doesn't sound like this whole situation was created from the police being too lenient anyway, it sounds as if being from an ethnic minority and living on that estate was enough justification to be suspected of a crime.
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If it was a 16 year old boy, causing trouble and provoking the police by throwing stones, shouting and making demands would you have the same view about him getting put on the ground and arrested?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
And had the victim been an innocent, law-abiding member of society you'd be right. However when the best defence that his supporters can offer is that he may not have had time to draw his own weapon before being shot then I'd be most surprised if the majority of reasonable people wouldn't think, to use the Glasgow vernacular, "hell mend him",or in other words, he got what he deserved.
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The family don't seem to be getting told what has happened which is a major problem, how can they be put at ease and the rumour mill quashed when the police won't answer?
 
Splog said:
Sorry, but race does come into it..

Bradford
Leeds
Birmingham
Burnley
Tottenham

........ Fact! - init!

Edit: at matty's post
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:shrug: what is your point? Noone has mentioned race with the student riots, or the poll tax riots? Looking at the photos of last nights proceedings, plenty of white morons chucking stuff at the police, burning stuff and looting. Race has sod all to do with this.
 
Laudrup said:
The family don't seem to be getting told what has happened which is a major problem, how can they be put at ease and the rumour mill quashed when the police won't answer?
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And you know this how ? , are you related to them ? - or are you just basing that on unsubstantiated rumour too ?
 
Chris Primadona said:
If it was a 16 year old boy, causing trouble and provoking the police by throwing stones, shouting and making demands would you have the same view about him getting put on the ground and arrested?
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The gender wouldn't have made a difference.
 
Laudrup said:
The family don't seem to be getting told what has happened which is a major problem, how can they be put at ease and the rumour mill quashed when the police won't answer?
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That's because the matter has been referred to the IPCC, don't you watch the news? :naughty:
 
the IPCC are investigating, the police probably have to keep info flow to a minimum until they have established the facts - otherwise rumours start flying about, people get angry, riot, that sort of thing
 
Laudrup said:
Well his brother has said it on Sky News 60 seconds ago.
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and of course hes telling the total unvarnished truth because he has no problem with the police at all :cuckoo:
 
Laudrup said:
Well his brother has said it on Sky News 60 seconds ago.
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That'll be the same clip where they're not condoning any of the rioting then...
 
Are spurs really that bad?
 
Laudrup said:
The family don't seem to be getting told what has happened which is a major problem, how can they be put at ease and the rumour mill quashed when the police won't answer?
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The police can't answer because the matter is being investigated by the IPCC not the police. The police can't pass any comment on the matter. We'll be told what happened when the IPCC finish their enquiries, which takes time.
 
PMK said:
I feel this may change some things:
"The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on the bullet lodged in the officer's radio show that it was a police issued bullet – and had not therefore been fired by Duggan or anyone else in the area."

If true, then he didn't open fire first, or at all...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live
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yeah but he was still carrying a firearm - so if the best justification the anti police side can come up with is that duggan didnt get a chance to get a shot off :thumbsdown:

its all very well getting excited about the cops shooting him - but if he hadnt been a criminal and hadn't been carrying a gun he wouldnt have got shot - simples
 
big soft moose said:
and of course hes telling the total unvarnished truth because he has no problem with the police at all :cuckoo:
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Well his brother has just been shot and it hasn't been explained to him fully why. Think I would be a little upset too.

Why would he condone the actions of rioters looting places like Aldi and PC World, not really getting back at the police is it?
 
matty said:
:shrug: what is your point? Noone has mentioned race with the student riots, or the poll tax riots? Looking at the photos of last nights proceedings, plenty of white morons chucking stuff at the police, burning stuff and looting. Race has sod all to do with this.
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The poll tax and student riots were political.... The riots in tottenham, Bradford et al were about civil unrest. I realise it's not PC but it's a fact that the majority were black and Asian and IMHO shows a very real problem with our multi-cultural society :thinking: and before anyone says I'm racist! .... I'm not... I'm a realist.
 
PMK said:
Well his brother has just been shot and it hasn't been explained to him fully why. Think I would be a little upset too.
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exactly - which hardly makes him a reliable source of information

mind you the reasons pretty self explanatory - his brother got shot because he was an armed criminal
 
PMK said:
Why would he condone the actions of rioters looting places like Aldi and PC World, not really getting back at the police is it?
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That's my point... it seems to be violence for violence's sake.
 
big soft moose said:
yeah but he was still carrying a firearm - so if the best justification the anti police side can come up with is that duggan didnt get a chance to get a shot off :thumbsdown:

its all very well getting excited about the cops shooting him - but if he hadnt been a criminal and hadn't been carrying a gun he wouldnt have got shot - simples
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No but how did a police officer get shot, by a police weapon?
 
PMK said:
I feel this may change some things:
"The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on the bullet lodged in the officer's radio show that it was a police issued bullet – and had not therefore been fired by Duggan or anyone else in the area."

If true, then he didn't open fire first, or at all...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live
Click to expand...

Even supposing it is true, if Duggan had a gun and if he reached for it or pointed it at a police officer (without discharging it)then I'd say they were still more than justified in shooting him.
 
Catdaddy said:
That's my point... it seems to be violence for violence's sake.
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Again though, probably not through the initial actions. Rumour had it anarchist groups were handing out recruitment flyers.

The possibility of peaceful protest is non existent these days. There are always some who are not involved who will use it as an excuse for violence. The problem is the initial protest is tarred with the same brush.
 
ding76uk said:
No but how did a police officer get shot, by a police weapon?
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Let's suppose for one moment this was the case. If this guy hadn't been in a public place armed with an illegally held firearm, there wouldn't have been any police presence there at all, and certainly no armed officers.

Whatever happened, this guy was the instigator of the incident.
 
Half of the problem is people who know absolutely nothing about what happened spreading rumours about what they heard or read.

The 1981 Brixton Riots started when people spread rumours that the police had stood by and let a young man die of stab wounds, when what actually happened was the mob stopped the police putting the victim in a car to take him to hospital.


If you were not there and don't know the facts keep your mouth shut, and stop typing.
 
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