The people who are saying he had a gun are the same people who were saying he had shot at police until the ballistics report came to light.
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So Tottenham burns!
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The people who are saying he had a gun are the same people who were saying he had shot at police until the ballistics report came to light.
Russ77
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Just from memory TBH, the table leg incident happened when I was a kid but I still maintain what I've said before.
Can't help feeling the police are made scapegoats in situations like this to stop scumbags going out and doing what they did last night (and tonight by the reports I'm seeing about Enfield)
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gramps
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Where is the ballistics report published?
Flash In The Pan
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The local community leader that was interviewed on Sky openly admitted that the guy was carrying a gun. I wasn't aware of a ballastics report that said he didn't fire at the police officer, or indeed of any such reports having been published at all, given that the whole thing is still under investigation.......
tijuana taxi
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These riots always seem to have a couple of things in common, during the summer months and a tory government in power (well sort of this time)
neil_g
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also that there would always be forensic tests on every bullet recovered so there would be little chance of a cover up.
plus normally police radios are mounted on the chest, i dont think anyone would be that moronic to fire at a colleague in that area and hope the radio stopped the round to save their own ass.
please would the conspiracy theorys GTF.
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gramps
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Guardian blog? Are you serious?
The whole case reeked of police concocting a story. Unless you actually believe he was aiming down the sights of his table leg?
I really don't think the Guardian's crime correspondent is going to make something like that up...
neil_g
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up until recently you probably also wouldnt of expected an entire media organisation to get dragged through the courts in a huge scandal resulting in a paper being shut down...
media, theyre all crooked. more so than some people reckon the police are.
Garry Edwards
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Hollow point bullets actually, not dum dums.
They aren't at all distinct, a lot of civilian shooters (including me) have access to hollow point bullets - they are designed to kill humanely and are routinely used for pest control and humane destruction of animals.
If the gentleman did have a gun then it was probably held illegally, and the ammunition may have been stolen from someone who held hollow point bullets legally, or could have been made, using a bullet press, or could have been drilled out from normal soft nosed bullets.
All I'm saying here is that if the bullet was a hollow point, it doesn't mean that it was fired from a police weapon.
Flash In The Pan
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Nothing there says that Duggan was unarmed. Live by the sword.....
Unless this turns out to be another Stephen Waldorf-type case then I've got ZERO sympathy for him.
Wasn't claiming he was unarmed.
JAPhotography
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I'm terribly sorry, but Dum Dum rounds are illegal and have been since the Hague Convention in 1899. However these rounds are used by the criminals as they cause more damage to your target.
Also, why do we not use fire hoses to disperse the rioters? My kid brother thinks we should use sewage tanks instead of plain old water, but I think that would be too far. I believe that someone has said that most of the rioters where from out of the area, I'm sure that they where also involved in the london riots also. It seems as if there is a kind of riot tourism which is starting up and is, unfortunately, probably being fuelled by the football hooligans whom the rest of the world try to ban from their stadiums and matches.
However, prevention is better than cure, it's just finding the right preventative measures.
Flash In The Pan
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You inferred it though, by casting doubt on the veracity of the claims made by 'the same people'....
Chris Primadona
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If you walk around carrying an illegal handgun then "shoot first, ask questions later" seems like a fair deterrent to me! Unless this guy had a squeaky clean history and a gun was planted on him then I have 0 sympathy for him. Even if he was mr nice guy and set up, it's still no excuse for the scum that ran around last night causing huge amounts of destruction. I just wish the police where allowed to blitz these people without fear of the PC brigade playing the race card.
Garry Edwards
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Read my first post, shortly before yours.
Dum Dum (and hollow point) rounds are banned for military use by the Hague Convention of 1899.
The Hague Convention does not apply to non-military use and so does not apply to the police or to other non-military gun users
I'm sure that's right, because my Firearms Certificate says that I can acquire and use them in certain circumstances, i.e. in accordance with my certificate...
Not really. I was suggesting it was a possibility.
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the whole episode just makes us look stupid in the UK, this happens everyday in the US and other countries. its about time we stepped back from this society of pity for the criminals, and headed back to discipline in the young. reading the internet today, its everyones fault from the police, to Liberal Nick and Tory Dave for cutting youth club budgets, but not one 'commentator' has blamed gun totting criminals. lets be honest, if he wasnt carrying a gun, he wouldnt have been a target in the first place.
JAPhotography
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You learn something new every day! I got told it when I was doing my ATC rifle training, so they must have just meant military use.
The photos the BBC have been showing of the gunman show him in what I believe to be a "gang pose" with his hand in the shape of a gun - I think there is a big chance he was carrying that weapon for a reason.
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gramps
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Clap-trap, one person was killed ... for having a gun, the rest are just using it as an excuse for mayhem.
Splog
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Indeed! .... I've only just seen the devastation caused from the riots and what happened! The rioters are scum... opportunists and thieves. I would see no problem with the Police fully armed and freedom to shoot to kill in situations like these.
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the police brutally treated all of those rioters and looters did they? Too much wooly minded rubbish like that has gotten this country to this point. NO teenage discipline, no way to control them. the law holds no fear to many young people, they have no respect.
vixmix
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Funnily enough I had posted similar to this on my Facebook earlier.
My best freind lived in flats that burnt down in that riot, He and his girl freind got out, but they have lost everything they own bar there two cats that they had to risk there lives to get them out.
I was so worried about the poor folks that live on the high street, I wondered if some of them legged it as soon as trouble started, or if they thought they were safer indoors :thumbsdown: God imagine the fear of those who were infirm or older or unable to get out without assistance. I feel heartsick for these people and those who have lost their livelihoods.:shake:
Perhaps the journalist got the information from someone's mobile voicemail?:shrug:
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if the police were really treating these people brutally the riot would have been over a lot quicker - water cannon and tear gas , and if that doesnt work rubber bullets then live rounds.
i'm not saying that this would be in anyway desirable , but anyone who thinks the british police are brutally supressing freedoms needs to get a life and maybe visit some totalitarian regimesto get some perspective.
also with regard to the looting and burning i'm put in mind of martin luther king - "what do you have when you burn down the ghetto - a burned down ghetto"
stu_the_flat
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I'm very surprised they haven't been using water cannons, You can't riot when your soaking wet,
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Flash In The Pan
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Conversely, if you stagger around with a gun playing the 'gangsta' don't be surpised if the police react in kind....
The whole thing is beginning to remind me of Bonfire of the Vanities....
Well what supposedly acted as the catalyst? Police attacking a 16 year old girl. What did the police think would happen as a result of that? It doesn't sound like this whole situation was created from the police being too lenient anyway, it sounds as if being from an ethnic minority and living on that estate was enough justification to be suspected of a crime.
Photo Plod
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They aren't authorised for deployment outside of Northern Ireland by the Home Secretary. We have them, but we can't use them.
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That's correct - Police and military are exempt from many firearm restrictions. For example they can if they wish shorten the barrels of shotguns to less than 24 inches, however there's little gain in doing so - contrary to popular belief it doesn't increase the spread of shot significantly.
Shortening the barrels of shotguns is a all about concealability which is why criminals do it.
neil_g
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reportedly she was throwing stones at the police, what did she think would happen as a result of that?
incidentally her age is irrelevent, if shes out there doing that and the police arent going to stop and ask her age..
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The PC brigade would have a cow - and that apart its not the sort of hardware the british police have readily to hand.
some countries (even suposedly civilised and democratic ones) come down on rioters a lot harder - for example in the states the LAPD have sonic canons that can be deployed for crowd control which create a noise wave that causes nasea and diziness. The israelis have a microwave weapon (technically its american as its made by raytheon) which essentially uses millimeter radiation to boil the water in your skin and makes you feel as though your skin is on fire, german, french, and spanish police all routinely use water canons on civil unrest and so forth
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that, with the greatest respect, is *******s. why bring race into it??
Anyone chucking stones at the police, or having a firearm, or rioting, or looting, is fair game - black white pink or bloody purple with yellow spots. there is NO reason justification for rioting, destruction and theft on that scale.
Im not talking about the police being too lenient either, im talking about society in general for the last 18 years - liberal wishywashy ******** has taken the power to discipline from schools and to a lesser extent parents and left us with near feral gangs of thugs and morons on the streets. Parents sat at home with no jobs teaching kids to be slack spongers. its shameful.
srichards
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They can't use water cannon the south east as there is no bleeding water and hose pipe bans... and besides some elf and safety twit would probably say it was too dangerous and someone might get their circulation cut off if they were wearing shrink to fit jeans.
I think that slippery foam might be a much better idea. You can't riot while struggling to stay upright and falling over on your ass. Give them a good soaking of that and I'm sure the novelty will disappear very quickly.
Said 16 year old was throwing stones from what eye witnesses have said so she got what she deserved. She's lucky it isn't going to be a darwin award as chucking missiles at police in full riot gear is about as utterly stupid as you can get. Perhaps a career in lion taming might suit. She'd probably poke it with a stick.
I think that slippery foam might be a much better idea. You can't riot while struggling to stay upright and falling over on your ass. Give them a good soaking of that and I'm sure the novelty will disappear very quickly.
Said 16 year old was throwing stones from what eye witnesses have said so she got what she deserved. She's lucky it isn't going to be a darwin award as chucking missiles at police in full riot gear is about as utterly stupid as you can get. Perhaps a career in lion taming might suit. She'd probably poke it with a stick.
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To blame the whole thing on the way the police responded to that girl is absolutely no excuse for what has happened since. People phoning up their friends and inviting them down to join in? C'mon... That's nothing other than mindless violence. It serves no purpose whatsoever. What can some bloke pushing a shopping trolley down the road with a plasma tv in it possibly have anything to do with a girl getting arrested for assaulting the police?
And, in my opinon, if people are going to go and do that kind of thing, they deserve everything that the police can throw at them.
And, in my opinon, if people are going to go and do that kind of thing, they deserve everything that the police can throw at them.
When you have so many people who distrust the police down there due to direct dealings with them I don't find it surprising their suspicions and angers are aroused when these shootings happen.
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I remember reading that the yardies have a saying about why its better to be a crim in the UK rather than jamaica or the states
" the police dont bang, the law dont hang, lock em up not lang"
ie the police arent routinely armed, theres no capital punishment, and the sentences are shorter - great advert for the UK
so I cant shed to many tears when some scrote discovers that in some circumstances the police do bang.
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