Should they have paid me?
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For unauthorised use it is very easy to get money out of people in the UK - I have chased and won against major corporates - government departments - a member of parliament - and smaller companies too - always with success. The alternative for them is a court case they know they will lose. Given the size of the magazine you are alluding too - then the sum involved here would be approaching 4 figures - well worth pursuing.
~Sam~
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Hi, Carrie - I've been reading this thread and have a quick question for you as I don't quite understand your thought process. In your first post you
ask whether you should have been paid anything - did you want to know how to go about gaining payment or 'just' an affirmation that you should have been paid? Because, you've been given a lot of support and guidance but seem a little defeated even before taking it too far.
If your friend is a good one, maybe mention to her that, whilst you are pleased she used the photo' on her site, flattered that the mag liked it blah blah blah, you feel that you deserve some recognition for that. If you are convinced that the publication (because it is based overseas) will humour rather than pay you, she may be able to help with a quick 'ooops, made a mistake in handing over the piccy, so can you see what you can do for XX' e-mail? After all, whoever she is, I'm sure she has some small idea of how these things work and wouldn't for one second just give away a photo had it been taken by someone more, er, well known, than you - just a thought! Must have been a great photograph, though
ask whether you should have been paid anything - did you want to know how to go about gaining payment or 'just' an affirmation that you should have been paid? Because, you've been given a lot of support and guidance but seem a little defeated even before taking it too far.
If your friend is a good one, maybe mention to her that, whilst you are pleased she used the photo' on her site, flattered that the mag liked it blah blah blah, you feel that you deserve some recognition for that. If you are convinced that the publication (because it is based overseas) will humour rather than pay you, she may be able to help with a quick 'ooops, made a mistake in handing over the piccy, so can you see what you can do for XX' e-mail? After all, whoever she is, I'm sure she has some small idea of how these things work and wouldn't for one second just give away a photo had it been taken by someone more, er, well known, than you - just a thought! Must have been a great photograph, though
photon
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If they try and do the dirty, tell them you'll be putting all future correspondence on a blog.
Start your emails with the wording "Without prejudice".
First off, gabe, congratulations on what must have been a very good shot to be reproduced in a "Big" magazine, albeit without your knowledge or a suitable credit!
I have no experience of ever having this kind of thing happen to me, in terms of photography as I am only starting out.
However I do have experience of being fobbed off by a company when trying to claim winnings from a gambling site. I had tried to withdraw £250 from winnings on a couple of lucky bets and the money never reached my account, despite them saying they had sent it etc. I provided statements to prove no recipt of funds on two occasions. The first time, they said they didn't receive them (sent by recorded delivery too!), the second time, i faxed them and they said that they lost them. Anyway, after a good number of months of back and forth, I finally snapped.
What did I do? I wrote a strongly worded letter to the Chief Exec of the gambling company's parent company explaining the situation and stating that if the money had not been received into my account within two weeks, I would be contacting the gaming commission (regulatory board), and also small claims, to take things further.
I received an extremely apologetic reply within 4 days, the money into my account and also a £20 sweetener into my betting account to apologise!
Of course I then withdrew it and cancelled my account anyway!
I know this is a bit long-winded (but thats just me all over!
), but my point is that, sometimes you just have to keep going and keep pushing when it is clear that you are morally being done over, so to speak. That company thought they could walk over me, but I fought them and won. There's no reason why you can not do the same.
Either way, I hope it works out for you!
I have no experience of ever having this kind of thing happen to me, in terms of photography as I am only starting out.
However I do have experience of being fobbed off by a company when trying to claim winnings from a gambling site. I had tried to withdraw £250 from winnings on a couple of lucky bets and the money never reached my account, despite them saying they had sent it etc. I provided statements to prove no recipt of funds on two occasions. The first time, they said they didn't receive them (sent by recorded delivery too!), the second time, i faxed them and they said that they lost them. Anyway, after a good number of months of back and forth, I finally snapped.
What did I do? I wrote a strongly worded letter to the Chief Exec of the gambling company's parent company explaining the situation and stating that if the money had not been received into my account within two weeks, I would be contacting the gaming commission (regulatory board), and also small claims, to take things further.
I received an extremely apologetic reply within 4 days, the money into my account and also a £20 sweetener into my betting account to apologise!
Of course I then withdrew it and cancelled my account anyway!
I know this is a bit long-winded (but thats just me all over!
), but my point is that, sometimes you just have to keep going and keep pushing when it is clear that you are morally being done over, so to speak. That company thought they could walk over me, but I fought them and won. There's no reason why you can not do the same.Either way, I hope it works out for you!
Suze - you have seen the light!
too right
ive done my freebies - i have my portfolio and yes im still hopefully improving daily! however my improvement is on MY time - i go places to improve - not give away photos !!! (hence my UK trip this summer!)See what they say - just threaten them - they wouldnt want a lawsuit.... ni assume you know which magazine?
if it were my photo id be livid with your friend for starters though!
freedomgoose
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I guess this happens at all levels and not just at our A5 student magazine where they leave out photo credits on pro photos they're been given in a press pack just as much as mine or my friends.
I think I've discovered the people editing magazines are quite often a bit ditzy and don't really have a full grasp of the concept of copyright, unfortunately for us.
I think I've discovered the people editing magazines are quite often a bit ditzy and don't really have a full grasp of the concept of copyright, unfortunately for us.
wingnut
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Like AWP and few others I have been reading this thread with interest.
Carrie whatever your photography status is your work is of value to someone and you deserve to be rewarded accodingly either with the name correction, finacially or both. As stated already letting this go by without a fight will only ruin future chances for payment for others if large companies think they can get away with it.
It's your work, your time, your skill that is lining someone elses pockets. That camera you took the shot with cost you money, your time to process the image etc etc. Claw back what you deserve. If you aren't able or feel confident enough to take on this magazine then I'll take it on for you. I have no quarms about this sort of issue and have gone against several large companies and won. That image is yours. Your own the copyright to it and it has been published without your concent and wrong credit. Fight for what is yours. Protect your work at all times.
Your best way forward now is to stop with the waiting game on calls etc etc. They are just leading you on.
Create an invoice for a sensible amount of money for the unauthorised use of one of your images plus wrong credit to the image and send it direct to the magazine account department. With it also include proof of the image being in the magazine and as much info as possible. Plus if you can an A4 sheet with the image itself on plus all exif info just to prove that you are the auctal owner of the image. Send it recorded delivery and give them an untimatum of 14 days payment from date of receiving after which you will be seeking legal action to reclaim all monies and additional compensation due to failure to pay.
There is a cautionary lesson for all amatuers and pro's a like here and that is to protect your work at all times. Put all copyright info in the exif data plus ownership details too. Even go for a small but noticable watermark to all posted images.
Whatever you do don't give up Carrie and don;t for one minute think that the person who promised you a call tomorrow, will call. We all know tomorrow never comes.
Carrie whatever your photography status is your work is of value to someone and you deserve to be rewarded accodingly either with the name correction, finacially or both. As stated already letting this go by without a fight will only ruin future chances for payment for others if large companies think they can get away with it.
It's your work, your time, your skill that is lining someone elses pockets. That camera you took the shot with cost you money, your time to process the image etc etc. Claw back what you deserve. If you aren't able or feel confident enough to take on this magazine then I'll take it on for you. I have no quarms about this sort of issue and have gone against several large companies and won. That image is yours. Your own the copyright to it and it has been published without your concent and wrong credit. Fight for what is yours. Protect your work at all times.
Your best way forward now is to stop with the waiting game on calls etc etc. They are just leading you on.
Create an invoice for a sensible amount of money for the unauthorised use of one of your images plus wrong credit to the image and send it direct to the magazine account department. With it also include proof of the image being in the magazine and as much info as possible. Plus if you can an A4 sheet with the image itself on plus all exif info just to prove that you are the auctal owner of the image. Send it recorded delivery and give them an untimatum of 14 days payment from date of receiving after which you will be seeking legal action to reclaim all monies and additional compensation due to failure to pay.
There is a cautionary lesson for all amatuers and pro's a like here and that is to protect your work at all times. Put all copyright info in the exif data plus ownership details too. Even go for a small but noticable watermark to all posted images.
Whatever you do don't give up Carrie and don;t for one minute think that the person who promised you a call tomorrow, will call. We all know tomorrow never comes.
I'm a little curious now as well: you asked what seemed like a serious question and have now gone halfway towards doing what people here have suggested in order to obtain payment which is rightfully yours (regardless of your professional status) but now seem unwilling to go the whole-hog and invoice the buggers...
Send an invoice...
It took me five months to get payment from The Independent newspaper for stuff they published back in November... I eventually had to go through the journalist I worked with to get the right person's address there...$500 is $500 after all...
(It turned out they'd paid another photogrpher by mistake at the time and he'd 'forgotten' to mention it to the accounts department, so not really Indy's fault on that one)
Send an invoice...
It took me five months to get payment from The Independent newspaper for stuff they published back in November... I eventually had to go through the journalist I worked with to get the right person's address there...$500 is $500 after all...
(It turned out they'd paid another photogrpher by mistake at the time and he'd 'forgotten' to mention it to the accounts department, so not really Indy's fault on that one)
boyfalldown
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no - don't start them with that wording, and certainly don't if you're putting them on a blog.
Without Prejudice just means you can't show them to a judge as part of a court case(if it ever goes that far), why would you wish to do this if you have nothing to hide and want to show you are being reasonable?. It should only be used if you are agreeing an out of court settlement.
If you put without prejudice emails on a blog, you're showing that you haven't a clue what it means, and any judge may well think your taking the pee.
Hugh
I'm a little
d in order to obtain payment which is rightfully yours (regardless of your professional status) but now seem unwilling to go the whole-hog and invoice the buggers...
Send an invoice...
Hi, I have said that I'm going to invoice the buggers!
I'm glad you got your money from The Independent. Seems like mistakes like these happen pretty often, unfortunately! Anyway, it's been quite an eye opener for me, and it's the last time I take a photo of my celeb friend!
I wouldn't go that far - just be aware of what's what next time you offer an image to her for free...
Not worth compromising a friendship over - it wasn't her fault (I'm guessing) and no reason you shouldn't take photos of her again...
Personally I'd take it as a compliment - offer to become her full-time Photo-publicist...lol
blue max
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Didn't realise this thread was quite as big as it was, so have not poured over every post.
I really think that unless there was a commercial arrangement, it's just among friends. If your friend didn't make any money (which would have been wrong), then I don't think it fair that you should retrospectively 'charge' for your services.
If you gifted the pictures to your friend, then that is your involvement finished.
Sometimes you have to miss an opportunity to make some money but retain a friendship.
Graham
I really think that unless there was a commercial arrangement, it's just among friends. If your friend didn't make any money (which would have been wrong), then I don't think it fair that you should retrospectively 'charge' for your services.
If you gifted the pictures to your friend, then that is your involvement finished.
Sometimes you have to miss an opportunity to make some money but retain a friendship.
Graham
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Sorry Andy but that's bang out of order... There's a lesson in here and it doesn't just revolve around money. If the OP makes a few quid out of it in the long run, then it'll be a bonus but there's also her friendship to consider.
Not every photo that's handed out has to have a monetary value attached. It's not your image that's been handed over and I daresay the OP won't lose her house over it!
Some things are worth more than money! Don't you ever do any charity work or do you charge them for images too?
Si
I think if we take this case in particular - the magazine not only didn't pay for the image, but put another photographer's byline under it (who as in my case, may have been erroneously paid for the image - we have no way of knowing).
The mere fact that they're still negotiating (faffing-around counts as negotiation in France, apparently) rather than just declaring it was a free-issue PR shot, means they know they should have paid...
The mere fact that they're still negotiating (faffing-around counts as negotiation in France, apparently) rather than just declaring it was a free-issue PR shot, means they know they should have paid...
If you read the whole thread properly you might think again.
turbotoes
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I say, steady on old boy, faffing around does not mearly count as negotiation in France, it's a way of life, an art form even!!!! Nothing here gets done without faffing around, the French can faff with the best of them, better than the rest of them even!!!
Sorry, I'll let you get back on topic now
Yes, that is very true and that is also why I've been reluctant to involve my friend in this. However, I think the magazine in question has behaved in a very shabby and unprofessional manner, and part of me feels that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.
Yes, I've done work for charity in the past - but an international magazine doesn't count as a charity in my book!
Why go chasing money (even if its technically due to you)?
Tell your friend you are flattered and its made you think more about photography. Ask to take some more of her and her friends at a studio and get her to pay for the studio fees and for a few prints for your portfolio. All of this on the condition that 'next time' someone likes your images they pay for it.
This way you keep your celeb friend happy, make more contacts, get more images and look to the future not the past.
Everyone's a winner!
G
Tell your friend you are flattered and its made you think more about photography. Ask to take some more of her and her friends at a studio and get her to pay for the studio fees and for a few prints for your portfolio. All of this on the condition that 'next time' someone likes your images they pay for it.
This way you keep your celeb friend happy, make more contacts, get more images and look to the future not the past.
Everyone's a winner!
G
Let me guess 'gmehje' you've got a job with a nice regular salary? Everytime someone allows a publication to get away with ripping off a photographer it becomes harder for all freelances to make a living. Every time! Get the money - give it to charity if you want - but make the publication pay for the useage.
It is the copyright owners right to be paid for work, not a 'nice to have'...
None of this has any impact on the friendship between the OP and the friend as the ongoing negotiations are between the OP and the publisher, not the friend...
Almost no-one 'commissions' work of this kind - it is sent on spec and the magazine pays the going-rate unless it is a special-circumstance image in which case the photographer may wish to hawk it round the bazaars and try and generate additional fees (those Brad-Gelina beach-Pix spring to mind - I think Big Pictures were paid $1m for those, the photographer's percentage being still quite considerable).
Not asking for dues is the best way of undermining an already precarious market...
Never a truer word - if only the amateurs (hobbyists) on this forum would understand that! :bang::bang::bang:
While it may seem that people here are simply saying "get the money for the sake of it" there is an underlying reason for that. Freelance fees have gone down because magazines know that they can ask an amateur to do the work and they'll be flattered and give the image up for free.
Pursue the image and make the magazine pay, these magazines get their money because of their content, part of that is the photographs that they use. If you don't want the money yourself, give it to a charity, I know a couple that would gratefully receive what the image is worth.
I understand what you are saying Arkady. And I tend to agree, just though the OP could think of a way of gaining in more ways than purely just financial.
It a complicated thing hence 148 posts. In my opinion it's ultimately its the OP's friends fault for giving away rights to a photo that was not hers to distribute. And its the magazines fault for not 'playing by the normal rules' and messing up the credit.
So the OP can either have the hassle (and fun) of pursuing the matter with the magazine. Or they can roll with it a bit and take pride in their work and use it as springboard for bigger and better things.
What I don't understand is , if its that important to the OP, you don't just fire off on Invoice for $1000 as see what happens.
It a complicated thing hence 148 posts. In my opinion it's ultimately its the OP's friends fault for giving away rights to a photo that was not hers to distribute. And its the magazines fault for not 'playing by the normal rules' and messing up the credit.
So the OP can either have the hassle (and fun) of pursuing the matter with the magazine. Or they can roll with it a bit and take pride in their work and use it as springboard for bigger and better things.
What I don't understand is , if its that important to the OP, you don't just fire off on Invoice for $1000 as see what happens.
$1000 is probably the right ballpark - but the OP is new to this and a little scared! You don't know whether the OP's friend gave away the image or the magazine just knicked it from a website - magazines like the one mentioned here know exactly what they are doing....and they win a lot of the time. Whatever, they should pursue it - my experience is you always get paid in the end - the alternative to the publishers is much more costly.
callumw
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Congrats and sorry to hear about the mixup.
Your friend is an actress so isn't likely to be up to speed on copyright. The mag will have used it assuming it was a publicity shot which they could use in editorial without seeing releases assuming her management company paid for usages etc...
Simple mix-up, but you've done the right thing in contacting them to get direct renumeration and recognition for use of your image.
A coleague of mne had an article in a photo mag and asked to use one of my pictures (of him) in the piece as it was the only one he liked. I gave it to him gratis, but I included a 3 month license for editorial use to him and the mag so that all the paperwork was squared and limited use was allowed.
They re a decent sized mag and so they will pay you a publishing fee according to the image size and where in the mag it was (more for front/back + inside covers). It may not be overnight as they may have to put you in their accounting system first (more likely if they're huuuge).
Don't expect thousands, but it should be enough to either split 50/50 with your friend or to take her out for a great meal to celebrate your friendship and turn a slightly sour occurance into a happy evening (good karma too)
Splog
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Perhaps they preferred the Karaoke :shrug: Some pub bands are so naff they should be banned for noise pollution!
If you dont want to tell us her name...... Just post the pic in question..!!
Good luck......... You deserve every penny and I just read the whole thread and I'm glad you have seen sense and are going to invoice. Recognition as an amatuer obviously must put you an a high but payment is the only way. There are enough businesses going down the pan at the moment. Freelance photographers will only add to that figure if us amatuers continue giving stuff away. Make sure its a very good amount 'cos they will only try and knock you down.
Good luck......... You deserve every penny and I just read the whole thread and I'm glad you have seen sense and are going to invoice. Recognition as an amatuer obviously must put you an a high but payment is the only way. There are enough businesses going down the pan at the moment. Freelance photographers will only add to that figure if us amatuers continue giving stuff away. Make sure its a very good amount 'cos they will only try and knock you down.
Excellent news! You will want to attach a time limit on their reply as well (7-14 days is a good number). If they go over that, send them a final notice, if they don't pay that then you have two options: go to court or leave it be. Going to court will get you not only the standard rate + charge for misuse but also compensation for your time chasing them and the stress that it's caused you having to go to France to fight it, solicitor and court fees and travel expenses (if applicable although should be reasonable, no staying in a 6 star hotel).
blue max
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What did the magazine do wrong? They didn't steal if from a website, they asked to use the image if I understand correctly.
If it was then sent to them without any conditions attached, surely they are within their rights to use it as they see fit.
I do agree that maybe they should have taken more steps to establish the owner and copyright situation. Perhaps just approaching the magazine to explain the situation may gain you all you are looking for.
Oh, and did you get a model release form or you might get a bill from your friend.
Graham
If it was then sent to them without any conditions attached, surely they are within their rights to use it as they see fit.
I do agree that maybe they should have taken more steps to establish the owner and copyright situation. Perhaps just approaching the magazine to explain the situation may gain you all you are looking for.
Oh, and did you get a model release form or you might get a bill from your friend.
Graham