Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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NeilA1975 said:
You're clearly misinformed if you believe that Islamic extremism and its ideology has 'stopped'.
Absolutely, agree with your second statement, perhaps you should take your own medicine.
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Get a grip man, step back and look at the post that started this. You said..
NeilA1975 said:
It has everything to do with an ideology derived from an interpretation of a religion. You cannot compare political terrorism with religious terrorism. One you can tackle, the other you cannot,
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I simply stated that wars based on religious terrorism had been tackled in the past. That's a matter of fact not my opinion. So, you are wrong, it can be tackled, as it has been many times before, so take off your foil hat and start thinking instead of quoting simplistic platitudes.

Understanding the reasons things happen isn't the same thing as being an apologist, again a low brow right wing media response. Only by understanding can things change.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Sorry what's hilarious? That religious nutters are running around killing innocent people?
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They are not religious nutters. They are just nutters. No religion orders people to murder innocents. You can spin it and say crap like 'but but but the Koran says this'...no. It doesn't.
 
daugirdas said:
Because the holy bible tells you to kill and destroy... oh no it doesn't. Fail. Epic fail. However there are clear references (waging Jihad) in the other political system book.
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More like an "epic fail" on your part. I think you should read this.

http://www.alternet.org/30-most-violent-exhortations-bible-torah-and-quran

All of the so called "holy books" of the three Abrahamic religions have reference to and instructions for carrying out extreme acts of violence on "non believers".
 
norters said:
They are not religious nutters. They are just nutters. No religion orders people to murder innocents. You can spin it and say crap like 'but but but the Koran says this'...no. It doesn't.
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Unfortunately you are very wrong. There are religious schools called "madrasas", which exist even in the UK, where extreme versions of Islam are taught. There are mosques where extremist Imams preach hatred towards the West, and worse still where they radicalise mostly young men to commit violent acts against "kafirs" - non believers.
 
norters said:
They are not religious nutters. They are just nutters. No religion orders people to murder innocents. You can spin it and say crap like 'but but but the Koran says this'...no. It doesn't.
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How would you explain these verses from Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". and many many others? I am genuinely worried. The message is clearly convert or die and without a doubt this is what jihadists are proactively doing.

If we are to have any moderate muslims we need to somehow erase these lines from Quran. Any idea how to sneak this in?
 
NeilA1975 said:
Sorry what's hilarious? That religious nutters are running around killing innocent people?
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No, that the unthinking blame a religion with nearly a billion peaceful followers rather than the politicians driven by greed and vanity who caused the political instability that is the obvious root of it.

That's hilarious because there's no other response, you're not about to start thinking no matter how obvious it is that your response is stupid. There's nothing funny about the dead and injured, obviously.
 
daugirdas said:
How would you explain these verses from Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". and many many others? I am genuinely worried. The message is clearly convert or die and without a doubt this is what jihadists are proactively doing.

If we are to have any moderate muslims we need to somehow erase these lines from Quran. Any idea how to sneak this in?
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We should also be erasing certain words and phrases from the bible as well.
There are already hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims.
 
andy700 said:
More like an "epic fail" on your part. I think you should read this.

http://www.alternet.org/30-most-violent-exhortations-bible-torah-and-quran

All of the so called "holy books" of the three Abrahamic religions have reference to and instructions for carrying out extreme acts of violence on "non believers".
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The old testament does indeed contain lots of Barbaric s***. It was in part written by some crazy tribal people in the middle east trying to justify their political system. Fortunately the new testament (the only truly important one for christianity) takes complete precedence over it and reads mostly along the lines of love your neighbour as yourself, let alone ban the murder, etc.
 
Phil V said:
No, that the unthinking blame a religion with nearly a billion peaceful followers rather than the politicians driven by greed and vanity who caused the political instability that is the obvious root of it.

That's hilarious because there's no other response, you're not about to start thinking no matter how obvious it is that your response is stupid. There's nothing funny about the dead and injured, obviously.
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Who's blaming the 1 billion you mention? I certainly have not so please do not try to twist things to suit. You're also way off the mark if you think that recent political instability is the root cause of a 1400 year old ideology which is extreme islam.
 
Phil V said:
No, that the unthinking blame a religion with nearly a billion peaceful followers rather than the politicians driven by greed and vanity who caused the political instability that is the obvious root of it.

That's hilarious because there's no other response, you're not about to start thinking no matter how obvious it is that your response is stupid. There's nothing funny about the dead and injured, obviously.
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Whilst I agree with much of what you are saying Phil, I think it is a combination of religion and politics.
We cannot dispute the effect of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the subsequent chaos, death and destruction, and the fact that this led to the rise of ISIL. However, there has been Islamic radicalism - Wahhabism for decades now, and we only have to look at Afghanistan, which the Russians invaded to attempt to restore order (what a huge mistake that was), and the rise of the Mujahideen, then the Taliban, both of which were funded by the US.
The latest crisis in Syria started with the "Arab Spring", and then became more chaotic when the US tried to fund the overthrow of Assad, who was an ally of Russia and Iran. The US has been supplying weapons, whether by design or accident, to the very terrorists who are slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people.
So, you have the geo political game, mixed up with radical Sunni Wahhabism - which IS a religion.
 
andy700 said:
We should also be erasing certain words and phrases from the bible as well.
There are already hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims.
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Old testament should be cleaned up, true.

There are moderate muslims, thats also true. My only concern is they are only moderate because they are "lazy" muslims and don't really follow their book or some religious "leaders" in full. There are also differences between Shia, sunni and all the other branches. That could also contain some differences. Some of these (wahabism and whatever ISIS nutters preach) clearly need banning asap, others need a little bit of moderation and sensible central leadership (like the pope). We can't have terrorist imams proclaiming jihad in the streets of London, Paris or Birmingham. Christianity has evolved from the heresy of the dark ages, I can't see why they can't.
 
andy700 said:
I think it is a combination of religion and politics.
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Indeed. Let's not forget that Islam is also a political system and is very tightly intertwined with [illegal in here] the very barbaric Sharia law. If there is any chance of true acceptance of islam as peaceful religion it must be completely depoliticized. We've done this, so can they.
 
This spate of Religious terrorism, is certainly directly related to at least one "popular" interpretation of Islam.
It looks to its past when large parts of eastern and southern Europe were conquered and overrun by Muslim Cailifs.
For them it was a golden age.

It is true that a majority of those who share their religion are innocent.
It is also true that a majority of those they attack are also innocent.

This has always been true in any clash of Ideals, cultures and religions.

The only way for such terrorism to be defeated is for all the "innocents" of all sides to make common cause against them.
At the moment the chances of that happening are vanishingly small.
It is as unlikely as there being a single interpretation of "Any" religion.
 
norters said:
They are not religious nutters. They are just nutters. No religion orders people to murder innocents. You can spin it and say crap like 'but but but the Koran says this'...no. It doesn't.
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Of course they are. They follow their version of islam which is the motivating factor.
 
daugirdas said:
The old testament does indeed contain lots of Barbaric s***. It was in part written by some crazy tribal people in the middle east trying to justify their political system. Fortunately the new testament (the only truly important one for christianity) takes complete precedence over it and reads mostly along the lines of love your neighbour as yourself, let alone ban the murder, etc.
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Matthew 10:34
34 r“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. sI have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 rFor I have come tto set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 uAnd a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Yep, really nice bedtime reading and that was just a selection of "fairy tales" from Matthew.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Of course they are. They follow their version of islam which is the motivating factor.
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That is exactly right, and their version of Islam is not very different to the version of Christianity which the anti abortionists in the US follow.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Who's blaming the 1 billion you mention? I certainly have not so please do not try to twist things to suit. You're also way off the mark if you think that recent political instability is the root cause of a 1400 year old ideology which is extreme islam.
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Extreme Islam isn't 1400 years old though is it? This problem isn't 1490 years old, it's very recent, and it's obvious to see the cause of it.
I'm twisting nothing, Islam has as much to do with the motivation of these extremists as Catholicism had for Hitler or Atheism for Stalin.
 
andy700 said:
That is exactly right, and their version of Islam is not very different to the version of Christianity which the anti abortionists in the US follow.
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abortion is murder. Plain and simple. You couldn't have twisted the words any little further. If you support abortion you support murder, which is frankly not much different from what ISIS are doing.
 
daugirdas said:
abortion is murder. Plain and simple. You couldn't have twisted the words any little further. If you support abortion you support murder, which is frankly not much different from what ISIS are doing.
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:eek:
 
daugirdas said:
abortion is murder. Plain and simple. You couldn't have twisted the words any little further. If you support abortion you support murder, which is frankly not much different from what ISIS are doing.
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Bloody hell!

I take comfort in the fact that you are pro life though. That means you don't want anyone else to be bombed or shot. Good stuff.
 
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Wow what battering the French are getting lately, some terrible happenings here.
I think we shall see some serious actions now regarding domestic security there and maybe across Europe.

So sorry for these poor guys, they are in my prayers and thoughts today
 
daugirdas said:
Old testament should be cleaned up, true.
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well do you start by cleaning up the translation from hebrew to latin ,from latin to greek ,from greek to english or a host of other languages ,there are so many bits added or altered by writers with there own agenda that you will never see the original text or its meaning just as the koran has been altered mis-quoted for the benefit of a few idiots
 
Mr Bump said:
Wow what battering the French are getting lately, some terrible happenings here.
I think we shall see some serious actions now regarding domestic security there and maybe across Europe.

So sorry for these poor guys, they are in my prayers and thoughts today
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I'd HOPE we & the rest of Europe will be taking some serious actions on our security now, but given the lack of resources, diminishing police numbers, slack border controls, & the influence of the do-gooders, I won't be expecting miracles, sadly.

My thoughts are with the bereaved, injured & also the French people in general.
 
I imagine the French security services are taking a very close look at any intelligence they gathered prior to yesterday, trying to spot anything they might have missed.

It's very easy for us to take their work for granted and unfortunately it's not until something like this happens that we realise quite how vital it is.
 
norters said:
They are not religious nutters. They are just nutters. No religion orders people to murder innocents. You can spin it and say crap like 'but but but the Koran says this'...no. It doesn't.
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You are so detached from reality it's unbelievable. Everything they (ISIS) do is in the name of Islam. You can be an apologist, a progressive or simply keep your head stuck in the sand but that don't change the facts. Personally I don't think they are nutters. They are very well organised, intelligent (certainly some are very well educated and qualified professionals) and motivated by their religious doctrine or their interpretation of it. This is what makes them so bloody dangerous, as has been demonstrated in Paris last night.
 
Canon Bob said:
There are cases where it is a life saving neccessity and I hope that any woman whose life has been saved in this manner does not judge your words too harshly.

Bob
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There are relatively few cases where that is the case. the medicine is pretty advanced these days; if it can't help then you would argue that the foetus would still die as a consequence. I appreciate that, however I am far more concerned about "unwanted" babies (unwanted life FFS!), consumerism and all of that.

There are equally cases where shelling a jihadist saves thousands of lives too. All of that [hopefully] are tragic but necessary exceptions.

ZoneV said:
I imagine the French security services are taking a very close look at any intelligence they gathered prior to yesterday, trying to spot anything they might have missed.

It's very easy for us to take their work for granted and unfortunately it's not until something like this happens that we realise quite how vital it is.
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Good luck tracking a million of refugees of unknown origin and background alone. This is before and in addition to tracking known terrorists who are not that stupid these days. It must be pretty tough and you can't blame them. I blame the governments and specifically Merkel with her closest friends (Hollande included).
 
BRASH said:
You are so detached from reality it's unbelievable. Everything they (ISIS) do is in the name of Islam. You can be an apologist, a progressive or simply keep your head stuck in the sand but that don't change the facts. Personally I don't think they are nutters. They are very well organised, intelligent (certainly some are very well educated and qualified professionals) and motivated by their religious doctrine or their interpretation of it. This is what makes them so bloody dangerous, as has been demonstrated in Paris last night.
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Their interpretation of it. Exactly. That's why they are nutters. They have twisted a religion of love and peace so much that they think it's compelling them to murder people. Same as the KKK and any number of other head the ball 'religious' group.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand leaving aside the religious argument for a mo...

On 9/11 I remember saying that we'd be lucky not to see a major war over this and thank God we didn't. Yup, in recent years we've had Iraq and Afghanistan and many more relatively minor wars, police actions and interventions and I don't mean to downplay the horror of these but they are nothing like what could have happened. I have the same fears today. I fear that again we may be lucky not to see a major war over this but hopefully the chances of that are a little less than after 9/11.

It seems that no generation can escape a period of madness on this earth. Once we naively thought we'd had a war to end all wars, we hadn't and I can't see an end to it.
 
daugirdas said:
Good luck tracking a million of refugees of unknown origin and background alone. This is before and in addition to tracking known terrorists who are not that stupid these days. It must be pretty tough and you can't blame them. I blame the governments and specifically Merkel with her closest friends (Hollande included).
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I blame IS.
 
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norters said:
Their interpretation of it. Exactly. That's why they are nutters. They have twisted a religion of love and peace so much that they think it's compelling them to murder people. Same as the KKK and any number of other head the ball 'religious' group.
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Which is why I blame religion in general for this insanity. There will always be people out there who are unstable, easily-lead, easily brainwashed, violent etc. just as there always has been. What religion does is create a wonderful breeding ground for people like this. It nurtures them and gives them focus. In essence a religion is very similar to a gang. They both propagate the idea of being 'better' than and different from, people who are not in the same gang. Of course, the messages are often subtle, but it's always there. It's much more insidious than a criminal gang because it's serving a god! Think about that: there is no leaving this gang, no arguing with it. And the members are told that this life is simply a stepping stone to paradise. Something to get through before your real life of eternal bliss begins. How anyone can argue that is a safe thing to tell people from the day they are born, is beyond me. Can nobody see how that could cause big problems?! For goodness sake.

If you have ten people following a religion, you will almost certainly not have any nutters, psychopaths etc. within that group. With a thousand followers, you may have one or two. With 1.5 billion, you will have hundreds of thousands and a big problem on your hands. The vast majority are still peaceful and abhor violence and come on the radio to urge people not to blame them, but it doesn't matter, because the group of nutters is now very large. The foundations of the moderate's religion has supported the extreme views of the few. Remember, it's the peaceful, moderate people who write the books, build the templates and teach religion in schools. Without these lovely, caring moderates, there would be no extremists, by definition. Isn't that obvious? In the same way we don't have the extremist bake bean worshipers, because we don't have any bake bean worshipers at all.

We currently have a problem with violent Islamists, but it could be any religion and probably will be in the future. The solution is to stop passing on the religion virus to children. Adults are much more difficult to brainwash, and most would find the idea of religion utterly ridiculous if they were presented with it for the first time as an adult. It won't happen obviously, because viruses just love to breed and most humans are as dumb as a bag of spanners.
 
Just pure evil, end of and no point trying to find justification or reason for these heinous acts as in Paris and Syria. No better or worse than the concentration camps,
Spanish inqusition or the Ruandan genocide, there has always been these sickening episodes and unfortunately probably always will be.

We have to stand together as mankind and try to root out the cancerous element responsible, its not religion driving it, just enjoyment of inhumane atrocities to their fellow man
 
norters said:
Their interpretation of it. Exactly. That's why they are nutters. They have twisted a religion of love and peace so much that they think it's compelling them to murder people. Same as the KKK and any number of other head the ball 'religious' group.
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If you're referring to ISIS creating the existing ideology of extreme Islam then you are mistaken.
What IS follows is 1400 years old, Islamic extremism created by the Kharijites in the 7th century. It is therefore not new, although it is to the West.
 
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tijuana taxi said:
We have to stand together as mankind and try to root out the cancerous element responsible
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Never gonna happen.
You can cut out as many tumours as you like but others will develop.
Of course, we must continue to try because to do otherwise is unthinkable, but it's ultimately futile.
 
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