Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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Canon Bob said:
Everybody in France has to carry some form of official photo id when they're out and about......I carry my passport and/or residents card. I'm guessing that the perp' didn't have a residents card so a passport is the next most likely item if he didn't want to chance being arrested if stopped prior to his "mission".

Bob
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I'm assuming they were carrying/in possession of firearms. That would surely make them look suspicious if stopped by the cops. Unless they had to commute to the meeting point then get to the car together and go on a rampage.
I don't know but if I was going on a suicide mission with aim to kill as many people as possible, ID documents would be last on my mind.
One more thing. Are this people allowed to roam the streets just like that after they arrive(illegally)? They are not being placed in those camps or detention centres for refugees like in those countries east from France?
 
sthwild said:
One more thing. Are this people allowed to roam the streets just like that after they arrive(illegally)? They are not being placed in those camps or detention centres for refugees like in those countries east from France?
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Lol. Seen the people at the channel tunnel trying to get across?
 
Saw an interesting comment.

Attacks like the ones in Paris are committed to purposely trigger an Islamic backlash. That backlash is not an unintended consequence of such attacks, it is part of their logic, because it lends credence to their narrative that there is a war between the west and Islam. By strengthening and emboldening the xenophobic rightwing in Europe, they strengthen their own worldview as well, and the most tragic irony is the backlash may target refugees who themselves have been fleeing Isis terror.
 
Keith W said:
Reuters are reporting another incident near the Eiffel tower
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False alarm if you are referring to the Pullman hotel incident.
 
Byker28i said:
Saw an interesting comment.

Attacks like the ones in Paris are committed to purposely trigger an Islamic backlash. That backlash is not an unintended consequence of such attacks, it is part of their logic, because it lends credence to their narrative that there is a war between the west and Islam. By strengthening and emboldening the xenophobic rightwing in Europe, they strengthen their own worldview as well, and the most tragic irony is the backlash may target refugees who themselves have been fleeing Isis terror.
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yep its classic game theory - if you are small and relatively weak and your opponent is big and strong then you need to manipulate your oponents reactions to strengthen your cause ... in this case they attack the west, the west bombs the f*** out of them in retaliation killing umpteen uninvolved muslims in the process = more sympathy for IS . ISIL would absolutely love it if the americans or russians could be provoked into doing something really fool hardy like a nuclear strike on Mecca ...
 
Byker28i said:
Saw an interesting comment.

Attacks like the ones in Paris are committed to purposely trigger an Islamic backlash. That backlash is not an unintended consequence of such attacks, it is part of their logic, because it lends credence to their narrative that there is a war between the west and Islam. By strengthening and emboldening the xenophobic rightwing in Europe, they strengthen their own worldview as well, and the most tragic irony is the backlash may target refugees who themselves have been fleeing Isis terror.
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Not wrong, BUT if nothing is done......they win anyway!
 
OldCarlos said:
Not wrong, BUT if nothing is done......they win anyway!
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so the answer is to act intelligently and proportionately - not be provoked into doing something that benefits them (like interning all muslims , or indiscriminate bombing , aligning ourselves with Assad etc)
 
poacher said:
Syrian passport holder passed through Greece - minister
Posted at16:38


A Greek government minister says the holder of a Syrian passport found at the scene crossed into the European Union through the Greek island of Leros in October.

Deputy public order minister Nikos Toskas, said in a statement:

On the case of the Syrian passport found at the scene of the terrorist attack, we announce that the passport holder passed from Leros on October 3 where he was identified based on EU rules ... We do not know if the passport was checked by other countries through which the holder likely passed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-34815972
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Something I just can't get my head around, why would a terrorist carry his passport at the time of carrying out such an attrocity? would it be the same reason that the CIA just happened to find the passport of one of the hijackers from 9/11 in the rubble of the WTC?
 
mex said:
Something I just can't get my head around, why would a terrorist carry his passport at the time of carrying out such an attrocity? would it be the same reason that the CIA just happened to find the passport of one of the hijackers from 9/11 in the rubble of the WTC?
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So that he can flee the country if he happens to get away afterwards ( or in the case of 9/11 because you need your passport to get on a plane) Occams Razor - the simplest explantion stands the greatest chance of being correct so is it more plausible that a terrorist might have needed his passport to travel , or that it was planted in a sinister government conspiracy ....
 
mex said:
Something I just can't get my head around, why would a terrorist carry his passport at the time of carrying out such an attrocity?
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As I said a few posts back
Cobra said:
I suspect that if they didn't get out alive, the object of the "exercise" was for the world to know who had carried out this atrocity
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So he either lived to fight another day, by escaping across a border, or the world and the promised virgins knew who was responsible.
 
big soft moose said:
not be provoked into doing something that benefits them
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The thing is, they know how much of `The West` operates & how limited we are in free speech etc & they hide behind the rules WE are bound by and use everything to THEIR advantage, even though they abhor the very things they use against us.
Sometimes it feels like we are trying to fight an enemy with one hand tied behind our back.

If isis and others aren't stopped, in the future, Hitler & the Nazi's will seem like mere school yard bullies when compared to what is coming. (& before anyone starts, I'm not a holocaust denier. Or trying to derail the thread. I'm just trying to show how bad it WILL get)

We need to be tougher. It's the only thing they understand & ultimately the only way to win.
 
But is it the only way to 'win', and do we need to win?

Diplomacy has worked to overcome seemingly insurmountable problems.
 
Before 9/11 a passport wasn't necessary to board a US internal flight bar Hawaii and Alaska.
 
OldCarlos said:
The thing is, they know how much of `The West` operates & how limited we are in free speech etc & they hide behind the rules WE are bound by and use everything to THEIR advantage, even though they abhor the very things they use against us.
Sometimes it feels like we are trying to fight an enemy with one hand tied behind our back.

If isis and others aren't stopped, in the future, Hitler & the Nazi's will seem like mere school yard bullies when compared to what is coming. (& before anyone starts, I'm not a holocaust denier. Or trying to derail the thread. I'm just trying to show how bad it WILL get)

We need to be tougher. It's the only thing they understand & ultimately the only way to win.
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We will never win. All we can do is try and stop the funding and stop dropping bombs on civilians.
 
I saw this and thought...

Fixed now thanks to a url shortener

Warning NSFW
 
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sthwild said:
One more thing. Are this people allowed to roam the streets just like that after they arrive(illegally)? They are not being placed in those camps or detention centres for refugees like in those countries east from France?
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If they've entered via another Schengen country (which 99% will have) then they're free to move around as they've not entered France illegally....it's the responsibility of the country whose border they first cross.

Bob
 
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Seems like another may have passed through greece.



22:35
A second suspect in the Paris attacks may have travelled to Europe through Greece, Greek officials say. Investigations are now under way, a source says.

Earlier it was reported that the holder of a passport found near the body of a gunman who died on Friday had passed through Greece in October.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-34815972
 
Canon Bob said:
If they've entered via another Schengen country (which 99% will have) then they're free to move around as they've not entered France illegally....it's the responsibility of the country whose border they first cross.

Bob
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Yet people were saying that Hungary is a disgrace to Europe when they started building that big fence. At least they were trying to control this massive movement. Merkel was the worst and look now at Germany especially Bavaria.
 
sthwild said:
Yet people were saying that Hungary is a disgrace to Europe when they started building that big fence. At least they were trying to control this massive movement. Merkel was the worst and look now at Germany especially Bavaria.
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You can't blame the refugees for this. The terrorists may or may not have sneaked in disguised as refugees, but that doesn't mean the refugees should be shut out.
 
big soft moose said:
so the answer is to act intelligently and proportionately - not be provoked into doing something that benefits them (like interning all muslims , or indiscriminate bombing , aligning ourselves with Assad etc)
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It was trying to overthrow Assad, because of his links with Russia and Iran which caused this mess in the first place.
 
andy700 said:
It was trying to overthrow Assad, because of his links with Russia and Iran which caused this mess in the first place.
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Ah, so it's all our fault and nothing to do with Assad being a murdering b*****d and the people of Syria wanting rid of him?
 
FujiLove said:
You can't blame the refugees for this. The terrorists may or may not have sneaked in disguised as refugees, but that doesn't mean the refugees should be shut out.
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To paraphrase it, the refugees should have been properly controlled, vetted and registered before being allowed in, or ideally cared for in the first safe country (Turkey for most).

Many were / are economic migrants from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and a range of African nations. As much as we like to help we can't admit every single one of them into the EU, and thus we must protect the borders and help them in alternative ways.

The harsh reality is that around 10% of refugees entering EU are undercover jihadists according to ISIS statements. I find very little reason to doubt this figure. In fact many more get converted [by force if needed] during the lengthy and perilous journey. Merkel did nothing to prevent this. She set up the whole show of uncontrolled avalanche (citing Mr Schaeuble here) and we will face the music for generations to come. She must have consulted the nation and the whole EU by referendum before taking such important decisions. In my eyes she no longer has a legal mandate and is ruling the country as dictator.
 
daugirdas said:
She must have consulted the nation and the whole EU by referendum before taking such important decisions. In my eyes she no longer has a legal mandate and is ruling the country as dictator.
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Didn't she do it for purely economic reasons?

AFAIK Germany has one of the lowest birth rates in the developed world and indeed I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that it's the lowest so getting skilled middle class Syrians in quick to fill the skills gaps and pay into the future pension pot makes a lot of sense and if the whole thing can be sold as a humanitarian project then all the better. Taking refugees from the camps may not get the same number of brownie points as accepting the marching masses we all see on TV and sadly those in the camps are very probably not as qualified and economically attractive as all those software engineers, accountants and doctors who could afford to pay the people traffickers to get them to Turkey and thus to trek onward across the borders.
 
daugirdas said:
To paraphrase it, the refugees should have been properly controlled, vetted and registered before being allowed in, or ideally cared for in the first safe country (Turkey for most).

Many were / are economic migrants from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and a range of African nations. As much as we like to help we can't admit every single one of them into the EU, and thus we must protect the borders and help them in alternative ways.

The harsh reality is that around 10% of refugees entering EU are undercover jihadists according to ISIS statements. I find very little reason to doubt this figure. In fact many more get converted [by force if needed] during the lengthy and perilous journey. Merkel did nothing to prevent this. She set up the whole show of uncontrolled avalanche (citing Mr Schaeuble here) and we will face the music for generations to come. She must have consulted the nation and the whole EU by referendum before taking such important decisions. In my eyes she no longer has a legal mandate and is ruling the country as dictator.
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What gets me is why is it an EU problem, if there are millions if genuine refugees where are the US, Canada, Australia, China... all great land masses?
 
norters said:
But that won't happen. More proof that they are just head the balls.
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I agree, and in the short term they are just that oddballs, but longer term they will use nuclear type devices, and that is when it really will kick off.
 
cambsno said:
What gets me is why is it an EU problem, if there are millions if genuine refugees where are the US, Canada, Australia, China... all great land masses?
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And Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States - Nearby, rich, sandy and muslimy!
 
cambsno said:
I agree, and in the short term they are just that oddballs, but longer term they will use nuclear type devices, and that is when it really will kick off.
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That's some crazy crystal ball you've got.
 
Spuff said:
And Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States - Nearby, rich, sandy and muslimy!
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Why in the world would a well educated Syrian want to go to Saudi? Many of them are fleeing from a dictator. The last thing they would do is head to another totalitarian state, and worse, one that has directly supported and funded IS.

Funny how the UK government rarely mentions the Saudi involvement in all this. Those arms contracts must be making them forgetful.
 
daugirdas said:
To paraphrase it, the refugees should have been properly controlled, vetted and registered before being allowed in, or ideally cared for in the first safe country (Turkey for most).
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How would you 'vet' them when few carry travel documents? Just ask them if they are terrorists, like they do on the boarding cards when you enter the US?

Good plan. One thing about terrorists: they rarely lie. The Romans knew this. "Crucifixion?", "Yes". "Line on the left. One cross each".
 
cambsno said:
I agree, and in the short term they are just that oddballs, but longer term they will use nuclear type devices, and that is when it really will kick off.
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What a scary thought. Do you think us having them would give them second thoughts using them on us?
 
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FujiLove said:
You can't blame the refugees for this. The terrorists may or may not have sneaked in disguised as refugees, but that doesn't mean the refugees should be shut out.
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Absabloodyexactly.
A determined crazy will strike, influx or not.
The one identified is HOME GROWN, and six HOME GROWN assailants. Some of the anti-Muslim/refugee vitriol on News comments' sections is unreal.
 
OldCarlos said:
We need to be tougher. It's the only thing they understand & ultimately the only way to win.
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So lets look at something we did finally resolve - Northern Ireland. Only when the people had finally had enough, when those involved in violence lost their backing, when after many political discussions was a ceasefire negotiated did things finally get resolved. When the people had two years of not walking about in fear, when they saw investment and jobs starting to come, did they not want to return to the old ways and lose that opportunity of a normal life.

Getting tough didn't fix anything in the end, it was only from talking.

If it's a war then we need to do it properly. Coordinated multinational all out offensive from all sides, rather like the Sri Lankan offensive against the Tamil Tigers, or the first Gulf war. Surround them and fight them until the surrender, then careful screening of those remaining. We also need a proper plan for aid, rebuilding after the conflict ends. Thats as important.

Only no countries have the will to do this, risking casualties, they believe the civilian population won't be happy with this. So we end up with surgical strikes, bombs, drones.

If we want to stop the refugees coming to europe, seen as a safe haven, then we need to create a safe haven in those countries they are leaving from, not just throw $2billion at the problem.
 
Don't you think part of the solution to the Northern Ireland troubles was when USA got a taste of terrorism themselves and stopped funding the IRA?
 
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Byker28i said:
Getting tough didn't fix anything in the end, it was only from talking.
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That fine if you're engaging with parties that have clear, well defined and reasonable agendas and are prepared to sit around a negotiation table.
In IS and other extremists you're dealing with a completely different animal, one where there is never a possibility of a 'negotiation' purely on the basis its their way or no way, as their twisted ideology dictates.
 
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