Shenanigans at the SWPP

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The SWPP, like any other of the trade organisations, have their plus points and their negative points.

I think some people are viewing this thread and seeing it as nothing more than a bitching session by those with an ax to grind.

From my perspective, this thread was started with the intention of giving a balanced overview, both for and against membership of the SWPP and it should be treated as such.

Many people have both positive and negative experiences of being a member of the SWPP and this thread is an outlet for those people to express their views, for the benefit of others, so others may may an informed decision as to whether they want to join, or not.

I hope that has clarified my position and thoughts.
 
MarkyP said:
The SWPP, like any other of the trade organisations, have their plus points and their negative points.

I think some people are viewing this thread and seeing it as nothing more than a bitching session by those with an ax to grind.

From my perspective, this thread was started with the intention of giving a balanced overview, both for and against membership of the SWPP and it should be treated as such.

Many people have both positive and negative experiences of being a member of the SWPP and this thread is an outlet for those people to express their views, for the benefit of others, so others may may an informed decision as to whether they want to join, or not.

I hope that has clarified my position and thoughts.
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you are right MarkyP. But my impression is that there is an awful lot more negatives than positives. I have been in this business as a professional photographer for 32 years now and never have I heard so much distain aimed at a professional organisation or possibly more importantly its leaders.

Of course it goes both ways and the leaders of the organisation have shown both their distain and total lack of respect towards us by not joining TP and putting right our concerns. Either that or they have no defense against them!!

stew
 
May I respectfully correct a misconception regarding the SWPP. First and foremost it IS NOT a professional representative body of any kind. It is a wholly owned business by one family essentially a husband and wife team. It has NO RIGHT, AUTHORITY or MANDATE in law or education to provide anything other than their own DISTINCTIONS. They are NOT PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS.
The only bodies in the UK who may properly be called PROFESSIONAL representative organisations are the following....
BIPP, MPA, AOP, AHFAP. IMI and the like. Each one on these groups has had its qualifications audited or ratified in some shape or form.

That is the first of my calrifications which are PURE FACT and without agenda.
 
Thank you so much for the offer of a trade show pass but I must respectfully decline as it has been made very clear to me through a third party that I am not welcome at the event at all. For me to turn up could be construed as inflamatory and provocative and I would do nothing to spoil the event or embarrass others.
 
Ian it will be a delight to see you sometime in 2010 and seriously, thanks for your kind offer. Have a great time at the Convention.
M
 
Photographers are not professionals in the sense normally associated with doctors, vets, solicitors etc etc. Handing a few photos in and having a few others, whether self appointed or voted in saying you can now put L, A or F whatever after your name can never be associated with putting in years of study.

SWPP are a professional organisation since they charge for their services, its questionable whether their standards are professional, i.e worthy of charge.
 
Total agree with your viewpoint Stewart as unfortunate as it is
 
artona said:
SWPP are a professional organisation since they charge for their services, its questionable whether their standards are professional, i.e worthy of charge.
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I would suggest that since it is quite possible to get a "qualification" from this company simply by attending enough lectures & training course and never actually having to have any work analysed - they are a complete waste of space as far as professional standards are concerned!

Simon
XLSINWP:bonk:
 
Captain Morgan said:
Martin,

Your personal conversations with someone on Facebook at 19:56 today have been copied onto the SWPP forum. Just thought I would let you know as that is totally out of order in my book.

Ian
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Unbelievable....next you'll be telling his mum on him...:thinking:
 
I want to make this clear. My first priority is the Help for Heroes Events on the 16th. I am aware there is a tread running on the SWPP upon which I have no opportunity to represent or defend myself against certain accusations. The accuser is certainly neither in possession of the full, accurate or true facts and for that I do not want to respond as I have no issue with the accuser.

My issues with the SWPP are between me and them unless they adversely affect or try to affect me, my family or my friends. My wife has been subject to the most vile and abusive language in the past and so have I coupled with violent threats. To make this perfectly clear I have NO ISSUES at all with the members of SWPP or the Societies. This is a small industry and things must continually move on for the benefit of ALL.

I could easily fill forums with facts that i can back up but that would serve no real purpose and waste my time. I would have loved t be there with one of my wonderful sponsors but have no wish to embarrass anyone by my presence.
 
Captain Morgan said:
Martin,

Your personal conversations with someone on Facebook at 19:56 today have been copied onto the SWPP forum. Just thought I would let you know as that is totally out of order in my book.

Ian
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Yes wrong, in fairness though was posted by one of Martin's FB friends and not SWPP owners.

Unbelievable....next you'll be telling his mum on him...
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Is getting like playground stuff.........However, I do admire Martin's professionalism, and hope that some here will take a leaf from his book!
 
NigelPaul said:
I do admire Martin's professionalism, and hope that some here will take a leaf from his book!
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I think Martin has a desire like many of us, that if you decide to join an organisation that purports to represent a sector of an industry, that it does so in a professional manner and serves the interests of all of those members without grace and favour to any particular members and without placing its own interests first.

When such an organisation fails to maintain such standards there are many ways of 'helping it' to return to a honest path. It is up to all responsible members, past and present to help it achieve that and in the same way that its members vary so do their methods of trying to help it.

I only hope that something will happen to the management so that the SWPP can become what it should be and not stay as it is i.e. become as professional as Martin - whether the existing management is capable of that is another question.

Mike
 
Thanks to everyone who supports professionalism and fellowship. Time perhaps to just move on. I will continue to work in the belief that higher standards mean just that. Imaging, customer service and every other element that entitles the honest practitioner the label "PROFESSIONAL". For my friends, it is a demeanor that is earned and not a God given right.

Enjoy your January. Live, look and learn and treat those who try to belittle you as you would treat your friends as it is you who has earned the moral high ground.

I am here to educate, inspire, nurture and support. That is it.

Martin
 
Hi Mike, I agree that there are things wrong within the SWPP otherwise this thread wouldn't even be here. I am happy with being a member on a personal level but acknowledge some of the concerns pointed out on this thread. I too hope the SWPP take all the negatives on board and are able to turn them around in to positives.
I think that it may be a good idea to see if there are any moves towards positive changes after the convention is over and done with.

People playing schoolyard 'tell-tale-tit' stuff comes across as unprofessional and just want to stir es.h.i.t IMHO.
 
your hope Nigel is one that has been shared by many for many years. SWPP have been acting like this since its inception. What gives you hope it might change?
 
NigelPaul said:
I think that it may be a good idea to see if there are any moves towards positive changes after the convention is over and done with.

People playing schoolyard 'tell-tale-tit' stuff comes across as unprofessional and just want to stir es.h.i.t IMHO.
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Nigel unfortunately one of the Jones families stock quotes is that they will be looking at it after the convention - unfortunately they never say which convention.

Personally I see very little of 'tell-tale-tit' stuff but what I do see is people using whatever means possible to clearly demonstrate to others what is happening within the SWPP. They may have cancelled my membership but I still get plenty of updates as to what is happening on their forum and there is one constant theme - dis-satisfaction and then the self appointed bullies and spoilers jump in to stop proper discussion.

If you complain about the actions of these bullies you will be told that they are long term members and that they get upset by the behaviour of others - as I said, without grace and favour.

As an example Colin Jones was on the forum in the last couple of days explaining away problems saying they were caused by a few upset ex-members, ex-members with an agenda or grievance or ex-members using the SWPP to promote their own business - this last one has been constantly aimed at me by them. There are much bigger problems than these that I hope they will soon have to address, and from those they will find no protection with a few glib statements on their own forum.

Edit: Apologies it was actually Phil Jones that wrote "People can get upset and seek revenge for a variety of reasons, it may be a past employee, someone who enters competitions or have their work mentored may feel aggrieved as their work is not perceived to be the standard that they believe, or someone who wants to advertise a business idea free of charge which may compete with the interests of the Societies…"

Mike
 
How many members does the SWPP have on their books? The reason I ask is that I am amazed at how low their turnover appears to be.

As of 31 May 2008, their position was:
Stocks = £44,323
Debtors = £112,081
Cash in hand = £6,928
TOTAL = £163,332

When you take into account their much publicised "convention", surely they must be turning over more than this? The figures above are for BPPA Ltd (company number 3922894).

I also notice that there is an SWPP Ltd (company number 03797332) and it occurred to me that perhaps there would be information in there, but this company , though registered in 1999, is listed as "7499 - Non-trading company"

Simon
 
No turnover in there!! Those are figures from the balance sheet, its the p&l that will give the turnover.
 
Confusing figures there.

Unless they have a fixed contract period, and not required payment upfront, I cannot see how they can have such a large debtors figure.
If you are required to pay £99 next year, then you can be counted. However, if there is no contractual obligation, then surely this cannot be counted (simply not cancelling would not be considered an obligation).
A different type of situation, but we often have contracts which give support for 3 years, and the person must pay per month for those three years.
If they pay per month, then they are a debtor for the figures. If they pay upfront, then it goes to a different part of the books.
 
Captain Morgan said:
I suppose quite a few members opt to pay by 3x monthly payments or by 12 installments. If so they would appear as trade debtors.
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It just says Debtors, so depending on how the accounts were drawn up there could be things like prepayments and deposits included in there as well as amounts owed from members - taking things away from the original purpose of the thread though!
 
I'm sure that everything is abouve board and proper. If not the Inland Revenue would be taking an interest which to my knowledge, they have not.

With so many people upset over the years with the SWPP, it wouldn't take much for one, or more, of them to report the SWPP to the Inland Revenue with a complaint, so one can only assume that the figures available by downloading the documents from Companies House are factual and correct.
 
7000 members at £99 a throw, take out the odd discount for family membership (if they tell you ;-) ), so maybe £600K in membership fees or is this £100,000 just membership fees from people not re-joining and waiting to be sued? Because this is a private business you can not ask such questions, which you would be entitled to do with a real professional organisation such as the MPA or BIPP.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
7000 members at £99 a throw, take out the odd discount for family membership (if they tell you ;-) ), so maybe £600K in membership fees or is this £100,000 just membership fees from people not re-joining and waiting to be sued? Because this is a private business you can not ask such questions, which you would be entitled to do with a real professional organisation such as the MPA or BIPP.

Mike
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to give them a fair crack of the whip on this - you can't pull part of a balance sheet apart like that - I assume that balance sheet came from their last registered accounts. All it mean is that someone, somewhere or a group of people/organisations owe them £100k and they are treating that as an asset. You can't say who from this, and whilst I won't normally defend them it does look as though their accounting is above board and from the snippet above meets normal practices for a company of that size.

Just for the record I think you'd do well to treat any 'debts' subject to litigation as an asset - or be a bigger fool then I think they are to want that debt treated as one.

Hugh
 
it all depends on the date of their year end.

With the convention in January - if their year end is December you'll find all sorts of issues - as it must be a large percentage of their years turnover....
 
BouncyMelons said:
Just in case any members were considering joining SWPP anytime soon.

In the last few days some members have had their memberships cancelled with immediate effect. Threads on the SWPP forum which are not open for public viewing anyway have been deleted not because they were critical of SWPP per se but because they detailed the number of members resigning their membership and they won't allow anything that does not make them look like a shiny organisation.

A mentoring process where the person doing the mentoring is also running his own course (for financial gain) and guess who is the judge when it comes to Licentiateships and monthly competitions? I'm afraid that process is hardly robust when it comes to criticism.

Thread removal, alleged editing of PM's, spurious complaints made against members by SWPP HQ that don't appear to be substantiated. Conference workshops cancelled because of "lack of numbers" when they just terminated the speaker!

Facebook pages being copied and sent to HQ.

Legal action against SWPP being sought by members, invoices being sent to them for the use of images without credit in their monthly magazine, and one Sunday newspaper waiting in the wings.

My honest advice right now would be to hold on to your money.
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Think this thread has strayed away from the OP's post?
 
Yeah, typical pub conversation really. Going to the cloakroom for the subjects jacket, then go through his pockets with yer mates till you find his bank book.

Can this (witchunt) thread get any more despicable?
 
mercedes said:
Yeah, typical pub conversation really. Going to the cloakroom for the subjects jacket, then go through his pockets with yer mates till you find his bank book.

Can this (witchunt) thread get any more despicable?
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Hardly, that information is in the public domain and easily obtainable from companies house. Not exactly stealing is it?
 
mercedes said:
Yeah, typical pub conversation really. Going to the cloakroom for the subjects jacket, then go through his pockets with yer mates till you find his bank book.

Can this (witchunt) thread get any more despicable?
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I don't think there's any real interest in those figures- but your analogy fails in a big way. The SWPP are a Ltd company and as such they have to submit annual accounts which are a public document. Not really the same as going through your mates pockets.
 
If you read my original post mercedes you will find that I say "My honest advice is to hold on to your money right now"

I have detailed some of my own personal concerns with SWPP as a business and as a paying customer and I still believe it is fair and right to do so.

If someone received shoddy service, no answers to questions and the downright hostility that this company demonstrates when buying a camera it would be plastered all over this forum and I simply don't see that SWPP should receive favourable treatment because they try to pass themselves off as some kind of professional representative body. They are not, they are a company and one who is offering extremely poor customer service.

That's my point. End of.

It's up to others to look at the positives and the negatives (which you can't read on SWPP because they are deleted) and weigh up whether they wish to make a purchase. I have absolutely no axe to grind with anyone who remains a member (some of my friends still are) and equally with anyone who decides to join. Just make your own informed decision and if that information includes some dissatisfied customers then at least you have the information on which to base your decision before you part with your money.
 
boyfalldown said:
I don't think there's any real interest in those figures- but your analogy fails in a big way. The SWPP are a Ltd company and as such they have to submit annual accounts which are a public document. Not really the same as going through your mates pockets.
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For someone to stoop to searching out/paying for these 'public' documents in order to place them on a photo forum is not only despicable but desperate.

I for one welcome any reports of bad service from any company on the forums, but this thread is now nothing more than a witchunt.
 
mercedes said:
For someone to stoop to searching out/paying for these 'public' documents in order to place them on a photo forum is not only despicable but desperate.

I for one welcome any reports of bad service from any company on the forums, but this thread is now nothing more than a witchunt.
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they don't cost anything as far as I know. I don't think the snapshot of the SWPP balance sheets adds anything to the thread, but they are freely available for any company so don't really see why its despicable or desperate? (or a witch hunt)
 
Mercedes,

you are back on the thread and you still have not told us what your connection if any is with the SWPP. You really are missing the point, it is not all love and joy at the SWPP and the actions against Martin are just another indication of the drastic measures that they are taking against anybody that does not do what they say or want.
This is not a witch hunt but much more akin to the facts seeping out and coming together. The nice thing is that threads like this are indexed on Google and then more people get to see what is really going on. The more you add to it the better it is for the witch hunt.

Mike
 
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