Shenanigans at the SWPP

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NigelPaul said:
For the £99 quid I pay I am at the moment still happy to remain a member, but perhaps if changes are not implemented in due time, I may grow dis-satisfied like others. On the other hand it's £99 quid, and for a non-public forum, and a few discounts here and there, legal advice and even if the mentoring is only a critique given by Fellow members, it really isn't too bad for the money (IMHO). It's biggest mistake is perhaps marketing its self to be an alternative to the BIPP or MPA. Wrongly, aspiring photogs (like me) and cowboys can use the logo (which I don't)
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Nigel,

My frustration came about, as you know, by their constant refusal to answer questions.

It wouldn't have been so bad, but the questions were about making it a better place, not just from me but by many, many other members.

There comes a point where you can only bang your head against a brick wall for so long.

Leaving for me wasn't what I had expected to do. I expected that the HO of SWPP would do, in my opinion, the sensible thing and simply listen.

Nothing more and mothing less.
 
I think there are a whole host of reasons and that's probably one of them :)

The magazine IS good and the convention is also terrific, credit where it is due.
 
MarkyP said:
Nigel,

My frustration came about, as you know, by their constant refusal to answer questions.

It wouldn't have been so bad, but the questions were about making it a better place, not just from me but by many, many other members.

There comes a point where you can only bang your head against a brick wall for so long.

Leaving for me wasn't what I had expected to do. I expected that the HO of SWPP would do, in my opinion, the sensible thing and simply listen.

Nothing more and mothing less.
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Mark, I respect you for speaking out and asking questions, and it's ashame that you were not given any clear answers. As a paying member you had every right to ask questions, and I am sure other members want answers too.

The Z affair and your resignation has caused a lot of debate and negativity towards the SWPP.....so let's hope this cause changes to be made for the better of all it's members.

I am not here to stick up for the SWPP, just here to say that for meI am happy to remain a member. Of course if all the prominent helpful pros leave who give such good advice and help on the forum than perhaps I will have a rethink.;)
 
MarkyP said:
Nigel,

My frustration came about, as you know, by their constant refusal to answer questions.

It wouldn't have been so bad, but the questions were about making it a better place, not just from me but by many, many other members.

There comes a point where you can only bang your head against a brick wall for so long.

Leaving for me wasn't what I had expected to do. I expected that the HO of SWPP would do, in my opinion, the sensible thing and simply listen.

Nothing more and mothing less.
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Hi Mark

It is good to hear your voice again, I hope you are well.

I also made some of the same suggestions as yourself as to how the service could be improved, but at the end of the day they are not obliged to listen to us, and as far as I know they have not done anything illegal, they offer a service that can either be bought or not.

I am sad, genuinely sad that you left and you are missed, but I am not sure that public airing of grievances is benefitting anyone. I just feel for anyone whose perceived shortcomings are brought out in the public domain, and some of the comments that I have read have been of a personal and insulting nature. The Jones family are only human, I would just like to see a bit more grace and forgiveness.

Mark, we have not met, but I think you are a man of integrity and I know that you have a genuine passion for photography. You have much to offer.

God bless
Dave
 
It's called customer service Dave. I am a customer of a company and if they refuse to listen to customer's criticism and concern then they lose customers.

You will find other threads on here both in praise of good service and warning of poor customer service.

And I have to be honest when it comes to grace and forgiveness, calling people late at night and on the Sabbath shouting and swearing at them is not going to get them very much in terms of that particular commodity, human or not.
 
AliB said:
And I have to be honest when it comes to grace and forgiveness, calling people late at night and on the Sabbath shouting and swearing at them is not going to get them very much in terms of that particular commodity, human or not.
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Only a matter of time before someone starts a "Phil Jones Swore At Me" Facebook Group hehehehehe :)
 
AliB said:
You haven't! :)
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I wish to retain my morality, integrity and clarity in all of this, after all it is what I have been campaining for.

It sure wouldn't surprise me if some one did do it though :lol:
 
And let me put this into perspective for anyone else reading this thread or happeneing upon this thread in the future.

Most Friday evenings, in the Social Club on the SWPP Forum, there is generally a get together, be it a Music quiz, just a natter etc.

These events are general run by Mick Spencer who is one of the nicest guys you will ever get to meet.

The Management, despite their protestations of "We do have lives you know and we don't want to spend our out-of-work-hours here on the Forum" do frequent the events on a very regular basis.

So, how is this for any idea?

One Friday evening, the management of the SWPP have a simple question and answer session.

They let all Members know and then members can simply drop in between certain hours (so The Jones's can have a life) and they can ask their questions and the Management will answer them.

How is that for a great bit of Customer service?

They take time out of their busy schedules for say an hour or two and people can log on and ask all of these questions that have yet remained unanswered.

How THAT will silence the critics!

But will they do it?

Anyone wanna lay odds on it? :)
 
I ahve to say how decent you have actually been with alll of this Mark, I mean , you are being constructive there. Too often I have seen people rant and rave about the SWPP, and have been quite negative, so your positivity is to be applauded.
 
MARK AMIES said:
I ahve to say how decent you have actually been with alll of this Mark, I mean , you are being constructive there. Too often I have seen people rant and rave about the SWPP, and have been quite negative, so your positivity is to be applauded.
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What the point in losing my rag?

When I was a Member, they wouldn't listen to me when I asked politely, they sure ain't gonna listen to me now I'm not a member lol

Change will only happen if people ask for it.
 
MarkyP said:
Change will only happen if people ask for it.
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I thought people had asked for it :shrug:

Isn't that one of the main reasons for all of this, people asked and the SWPP didn't listen?
 
Defiance said:
Has TP become the new sounding board for SWPP issues... ?
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It is inevitable that if a discussion is prohibited on the SWPP site, then the discussion will just move elsewhere. This is where their tactic of deleting posts backfires as the original threads were (I believe) in the private section of their site. Deleting the threads have caused them to be made public elsewhere.

Simon
 
I can confirm that additional filters were put in place on both the public side and in the PMs to stop any mention of my Forum. I was also threatened by Phil Jones the owner of the SWPP to not make any comments about the SWPP on any other forum. My membership was cancelled in Phil Jones' words because they had nothing to offer me - surely I should be the judge of that.

I have had a number of conversations with SWPP members (past and present) where they have been phoned late in the evening by Phil Jones, owner, CEO etc. of SWPP threatening people with the phrase 'you don't know who you are dealing with' - is this the sort of actions you expect from the CEO of a PLC, especially one that purports to be representative as a trade body?

You get asked for help but when given you get accussed of running down the company - if you ask any questions about clarification of qualification, mentoring etc. you get accussed of being a trouble maker or the SWPP heavy gang sets out to destroy threads and send threatening and abusive messages and pms which if you complain about you get told that it is not their normal behaviour and they are senior members so no action will be taken.

There is much more I could go in to but much of that has be sent to the authorities - hopefully they will get found out for what they really are - which is not very nice. SWPP basher, no, this is all truth and perhaps those that blindly and vehemently support the SWPP should start to wonder why you will see things such as failed court cases for membership fees, disgruntled ex-members reporting the facts etc. etc. etc.

Mike
 
I am wondering if and when someone at the SWPP is going to realise that there is so much talk about them? Furthermore , I wonder how they will tackle it.

If one views the SWPP forum , all appears to be sunshine and flowers, and maybe it is- the points that are being raised here are after all only one aspect of their day to day buisness.

Of course the perception of an organisation, outside it's own walls, (that is looking to have people join it) , should be paramount.
 
I think you'll find the swift removal of anything questioning the SWPP from their own forums one reason for the sunshine and flowers.
 
It would appear that the SWPP does not like any dissent within its ranks hence the removal of threads that contain any criticism of the "Society" or it's Management.

If the members can not express their voices without fear of retribution within the confines of the SWPP's own Forum, then they will find another outlet to express their anger.

TP is just one such outlet where people can come and have their voice heard and for that I think TP should be congratulated.
 
I would have thought by now that TP's admin would have had some contact from SWPP. If not then I would find that more worrying, or that it mayconfirm that it is being treated with contempt.
 
MARK AMIES said:
I would have thought by now that TP's admin would have had some contact from SWPP. If not then I would find that more worrying, or that it mayconfirm that it is being treated with contempt.
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I am surprised a conversation, whether heated and threatening, or adult and cajoling hasn't taken place.

I'm sure that Admin would let us know if either approach occurred :)
 
MARK AMIES said:
I would have thought by now that TP's admin would have had some contact from SWPP. If not then I would find that more worrying, or that it mayconfirm that it is being treated with contempt.
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I don't think the SWPP is in the position to treat anyone with contempt to be honest.

I do know that a thread on DWF ruffled some serious feathers on the SWPP forums after the convention this year though - and one forum came out of it rather poorly (it didn't have a D in the title). Being adults it's something for them to suck up really.
 
MarkyP said:
I am surprised a conversation, whether heated and threatening, or adult and cajoling hasn't taken place.

I'm sure that Admin would let us know if either approach occurred :)
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I'm equally sure our Admin wouldn't ;)

Plus it would be kind of pointless especially with tools like the rather controversial Google Side Wiki out there. Generally it's going to get harder and harder for companies to hide from their disgruntled customers. Quite scary from a business point of view but only really a problem if you don't give great service. Although this is great news from the Consumer perspective.
 
treeman said:
Google side wiki??? what the heck is that? I did click the link, but I'm still none the wiser :shrug:
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It allows you to attach comments that appear on the side of any website and everyone who has Side Wiki installed can view the comments.

E.g. a customer of a restaurant's can add a review of their meal, a town website may have some comments about the easiest, safest parking locations. It's a combo of Web 1.0 + Web 2.0, the controversial aspect to Google Side Wiki is that the web master cannot turn the feature off and only google can delete comments.
 
SimonTALM said:
It allows you to attach comments that appear on the side of any website and everyone who has Side Wiki installed can view the comments.

E.g. a customer of a restaurant's can add a review of their meal, a town website may have some comments about the easiest, safest parking locations. It's a combo of Web 1.0 + Web 2.0, the controversial aspect to Google Side Wiki is that the web master cannot turn the feature off and only google can delete comments.
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Jeez... Google takes over the world :shake: Next they'll be taking pics of where we live and and censoring our Interwebby search results :(
 
controversial aspect to Google Side Wiki is that the web master cannot turn the feature off and only google can delete comments.
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Jeez I can see the fun side of that especially in relation to the SWPP topic, but not sure I'm comfortable with Google having total control.

I feel a new thread coming on :)
 
Google the next big brother... Apparently they have tendered to run all CCTV's for the country....:lol:


Must admit I quite like the idea that you can leave comments that cannot be deleted by the website owner.... But it will get abused that is for sure....
 
nothing to admin that im aware of.

Mike, what you have posted there is pretty shocking, but from the perspective of a forum owner, its a little annoying knowing that the community that has been built up by hard work and effort can be 'mined' by other people to bolster their own small membership levels, but that said, the actions you described on private messages are pretty bad.
 
Earlier on, in the bit about PM editing, someone mentioned they run a car (?) forum and related to MUPPETS THAT CANNOT WORK THEIR ACCOUNT.

That would be ME then. I have absolutely no idea how most of the stuff on a forum works, emails even are NOT simple (but keeping one email from everyone who contacs you and then using the "reply" button is) unless you have had the benefit of someone showing you how to do the various things. An example:

I got a new phone on my contract the other day. I can use it as a telephone, that's it. There was no instruction book with it, instead, I had to log on to Erik's website and register and all sorts of other guff where I would find the detailed instructions on how to uae the thing......oh yes, how can I look at that when I am half way across the channel then, or up a mountain, or out in the kayak? A little instruction book is a valuable asset.

I bought an ipod, because someone said I could getit to work while riding the bike with earphones in my helmet.....what they didn't tell me was how to get the records into the ipod. I never did get a single song into it and gave it away. Useless piece of junk.

So, the point I am trying to make is: we are not all computer whizz kids that know how every piece of technolgy works....that does not make us thick, or muppets.
I can still read a map, so I don't use a sat nav for the school run!
 
Lensflare said:
Earlier on, in the bit about PM editing, someone mentioned they run a car (?) forum and related to MUPPETS THAT CANNOT WORK THEIR ACCOUNT.

That would be ME then. I have absolutely no idea how most of the stuff on a forum works, emails even are NOT simple (but keeping one email from everyone who contacs you and then using the "reply" button is) unless you have had the benefit of someone showing you how to do the various things. An example:

I got a new phone on my contract the other day. I can use it as a telephone, that's it. There was no instruction book with it, instead, I had to log on to Erik's website and register and all sorts of other guff where I would find the detailed instructions on how to uae the thing......oh yes, how can I look at that when I am half way across the channel then, or up a mountain, or out in the kayak? A little instruction book is a valuable asset.

I bought an ipod, because someone said I could getit to work while riding the bike with earphones in my helmet.....what they didn't tell me was how to get the records into the ipod. I never did get a single song into it and gave it away. Useless piece of junk.

So, the point I am trying to make is: we are not all computer whizz kids that know how every piece of technolgy works....that does not make us thick, or muppets.
I can still read a map, so I don't use a sat nav for the school run!
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And your life must be so calm as a result - just imagine that: no tech-induced stress...

Ahhh... Bliss.... :D

Need to make a memo? write it on some paper.
Need to tell someone something? tap them on the shoulder and speak to them.
Need to send a message? write a letter and post it to them...

Simplicity...
 
Lensflare said:
Earlier on, in the bit about PM editing, someone mentioned they run a car (?) forum and related to MUPPETS THAT CANNOT WORK THEIR ACCOUNT.

That would be ME then. I have absolutely no idea how most of the stuff on a forum works, emails even are NOT simple (but keeping one email from everyone who contacs you and then using the "reply" button is) unless you have had the benefit of someone showing you how to do the various things. An example:

I got a new phone on my contract the other day. I can use it as a telephone, that's it. There was no instruction book with it, instead, I had to log on to Erik's website and register and all sorts of other guff where I would find the detailed instructions on how to uae the thing......oh yes, how can I look at that when I am half way across the channel then, or up a mountain, or out in the kayak? A little instruction book is a valuable asset.

I bought an ipod, because someone said I could getit to work while riding the bike with earphones in my helmet.....what they didn't tell me was how to get the records into the ipod. I never did get a single song into it and gave it away. Useless piece of junk.

So, the point I am trying to make is: we are not all computer whizz kids that know how every piece of technology works....that does not make us thick, or muppets.
I can still read a map, so I don't use a sat nav for the school run!
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I hear where you are coming from Lensflare but you are using the internet so maybe it would be worth considering learning how to use it. I am sure other forum users would advise you.

Back to the SWPP its time a collection of photographers got together and started a class act against them. One of the things this organisation promote is that they will help you build your business. They will train you, they will mentor you, they will find you customers etc etc. A potential photographer might invest in equipment, give up their job and set out to become a professional, relying on the promised guidance. To then have the rug pulled from under their feet, by way of expulsion because they disagree with the "nazi" style leadership could lead them high and dry and financially cripple them.

I do not know this for a fact, only on what I have heard but I understand the head jonesman was a failed welsh professional photographer. I guess there is nothing wrong with someone giving up a professional photography business to move into a photographic training business but to claim he is of fellowship level, whether honoury or gained is not on.

I am pleased to see this thread go on. I am pleased it might save at least a few newcomers to the profession being misguided by them. Newcomers should also look carefully at companies associated with the SWPP. I know of one who also allow you to join for a £1 but they make you jump through hoops to cancel and keep taking monthly fees off your debit card in the meantime

stew
 
MARK AMIES said:
I am wondering if and when someone at the SWPP is going to realise that there is so much talk about them? Furthermore , I wonder how they will tackle it.

If one views the SWPP forum , all appears to be sunshine and flowers, and maybe it is- the points that are being raised here are after all only one aspect of their day to day buisness.

Of course the perception of an organisation, outside it's own walls, (that is looking to have people join it) , should be paramount.
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I'd be very supprised if they haven't heard by now.
 
Arkady said:
And your life must be so calm as a result - just imagine that: no tech-induced stress...

Ahhh... Bliss.... :D

Need to make a memo? write it on some paper.
Need to tell someone something? tap them on the shoulder and speak to them.
Need to send a message? write a letter and post it to them...

Simplicity...
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Actually sounds pretty good doesn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I love technology, but I still have a map in my car instead of a satnav. And if I can go an talk to someone instead of sending an email - well, I do.

IMO technology is partially responsible for the steady erosion of common sense that is happening around us (Certainly in the case of satnavs!).
 
artona said:
I am pleased to see this thread go on. I am pleased it might save at least a few newcomers to the profession being misguided by them. Newcomers should also look carefully at companies associated with the SWPP. I know of one who also allow you to join for a £1 but they make you jump through hoops to cancel and keep taking monthly fees off your debit card in the meantime

stew
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Stewart- in all fairness, with regard to companies associated with the SWPP, that is a difficult one- obviously SWPP will approach and are approached by companies, but those companies should not be held in too much suspicion in every case. It is normal practice for trade as you know. I may have read you wrong , and sorry if I have, but I wanted to point it out.
 
artona said:
I hear where you are coming from Lensflare but you are using the internet so maybe it would be worth considering learning how to use it. I am sure other forum users would advise you.

Back to the SWPP its time a collection of photographers got together and started a class act against them. One of the things this organisation promote is that they will help you build your business. They will train you, they will mentor you, they will find you customers etc etc. A potential photographer might invest in equipment, give up their job and set out to become a professional, relying on the promised guidance. To then have the rug pulled from under their feet, by way of expulsion because they disagree with the "nazi" style leadership could lead them high and dry and financially cripple them.

I do not know this for a fact, only on what I have heard but I understand the head jonesman was a failed welsh professional photographer. I guess there is nothing wrong with someone giving up a professional photography business to move into a photographic training business but to claim he is of fellowship level, whether honoury or gained is not on.


stew
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Hi Stew

If you do not know it to be a fact, why say so? and what consitutes a "failed photographer" anyway

Surely comparing people's leadership style to that of the Nazis is grossly offensive and going way too far?

Some of the comments regarding the SWPP are moving away from professional concern into an area of personal slur.

God bless
Dave
 
Dave Routledge said:
Some of the comments regarding the SWPP are moving away from professional concern into an area of personal slur.
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David,

The feedback generated here within this thread is justified and perfectly acceptable.

Censoring feedback, terminating members, withdrawal of 'qualification' and playing ignorant to advice offered by paying subscribers are serious issues and if the SWPP do not allow discussion on these issues on their own sites or forums, then they will naturally occur elsewhere.

Attempting to cull these discussions is no remedy, Nor is throwing the terms 'libel' or 'personal slur' around as they do not bare any relevance to the direction of this thread.
 
matty said:
nothing to admin that im aware of.

Mike, what you have posted there is pretty shocking, but from the perspective of a forum owner, its a little annoying knowing that the community that has been built up by hard work and effort can be 'mined' by other people to bolster their own small membership levels, but that said, the actions you described on private messages are pretty bad.
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I should make something clear, I did not promote my forum by PM or within the SWPP forum. Other members of the SWPP highlighted the fact that this censoring was going on to me.

The censorship only started after an article in the BJP in which both my forum/society was mentioned along with the SWPP. I can only think that when the journalist spoke to the SWPP that they mentioned mine and at that point panic set in. Strangely you can still post links to the BIPP/MPA etc. from the SWPP forum. I know from other actions that the SWPP were monitoring my posts actively and putting in to place measures to stop certain actions. The SWPP certainly stops free speech.

Mike
 
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