Sheep book project

[Ed Sutton]

I've set the ball rolling on my 'big sheep book' project. It's taken me a while to plot out the chapters/sections but I'm pretty much there now which has helped me work on a format and try some layouts. There's still a lot of photos to take and words to write, but it's now become a case of taking the photos and writing the words to fill known places.

Things will probably change as time goes on, for example the cover picture/s and subtitle. I like the layout but the central pic needs to be different. Quite what I'm not sure, but probably a tup with impressive horns.



More spreads in my sheep project thread.

I find having a paper copy easier to judge how layouts work, and things like typefaces and font sizes. So I've had a couple printed. The latest, and final one before the book is done, I did with Mixam. Preview here - https://mixam.co.uk/share/663e293e5771600906315310

I also made a quick 'promotional' video to give people an idea of it, and especially its size which is hard to convey in a PDF or similar.

View: https://youtu.be/cqzUuR8Tm-g


It's got plenty of likes on FB from Lonk lovers, which is to be expected, but I'd be grateful for unbiased feedback.

 

[lindsay]

Great work and well done, I'm excited for you. A great project.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Great work and well done, I'm excited for you. A great project.

Thanks Lindsay. It's taken a while to get this going and to this stage. Probably another 12 to 18 months of photo taking and research/interviews/writing before it's done. Hoping to have it done it for October 2025 - the 120th anniversary of the Lonk Sheep Breeders' Association.

 

[Harlequin565]

Agree with Lindsay. Great work and well done. Flip through looks fab. Simple design works flawlessly and the images all marry well together.

Would be very interested to follow your production journey - especially around costs and choice of publisher. That's quite a big book and in my (very limited) experience, won't be cheap to produce. So when you get them all done in hardback for a fiver each, I want to know how you did it!

 

[Ed Sutton]

Agree with Lindsay. Great work and well done. Flip through looks fab. Simple design works flawlessly and the images all marry well together.

Would be very interested to follow your production journey - especially around costs and choice of publisher. That's quite a big book and in my (very limited) experience, won't be cheap to produce. So when you get them all done in hardback for a fiver each, I want to know how you did it!

Thanks for the feedback.

I've not decided on a print and funding route yet, but am expecting a retail price of around £35. A lot will depend on print run size. I'll probably get a single paperback copy done through Mixam and use that to promote the book in order to judge demand so I can work out the print run. Then maybe a Kickstater type thing and try to get it known outside sheep circles as it could have a wider audience with elements of local history and general countryside content.

I have a friend who is bringing out his fishing autobiography in hardback later this year and will be tapping him up for info on production and publishing costs. Another angling acquaintance publishes high quality fishing hardbacks. Depending on costs I might hand production over to him. Unlike the fishing books I've self-published which I did to make a few bob, this is a labour of love and (I hope) a historical record so any profit will be a bonus.

 

[Ed Sutton]

A surprise addition to this for a Sunday. In part as self-promotion, in part to give something back to the Lonk Breeders' Association, I've been thinking of putting up an outdoor gallery at the Association's show and sale. But how to make prints that are weatherproof cheaply? I'm hoping Doxdirect have the answer. Last week I ordered an A3 encapsulated print from them. It turned up not long ago! The colours are off, but that might be a cmyk/rgb issue, but at a fraction over £4 each it's looking affordable to get ten or a dozen done.

The plan is to attach bulldog type clips and hang them on baler twine either to sheep hurdles or the side of a trailer. I didn't have any baler twine to hand so used garden twine to test the idea. They might need weighting if it's windy I suppose.

Yea or nay?

 

[droj]

I started looking at your Mixam layout, Dave. In particular I wouldn't justify the text - it looks decidedly weird like that with such an awkward variation in word spacing - letting the right margins go ragged would look more cohesive & organic. A blank line between paragraphs isn't obligatory, but may add some visual grace ...

 

[Ed Sutton]

I started looking at your Mixam layout, Dave. In particular I wouldn't justify the text - it looks decidedly weird like that with such an awkward variation in word spacing - letting the right margins go ragged would look more cohesive & organic. A blank line between paragraphs isn't obligatory, but may add some visual grace ...

Thanks for looking and the comments. I'd done a version with spaces between paragraphs and tried it without for this one. However I've reverted to with.

But I'm sticking with the justified type. Sorry. I did a version with left justified type and the ragged right edges looked weird to me!. I guess it's personal taste. It'll also allow me to differentiate a couple of longish quotations from the main text by indenting them as left justified paragraphs - so long as I make a note on eth style sheet. Still lots to do with both photos and design though.

 

[Harlequin565]

But how to make prints that are weatherproof cheaply?

£4 for an A3 print is pretty good even before you get it weatherproofed. I was going to suggest an A3 laminator but that's around the £40 without buying the prints... I'm assuming they're for display and not for selling?

Clothesline pegs are quite a cheap alternative to bulldog clips and you can get big packs of wooden ones which look nice too.

Have you tried getting in touch and see if they can give you space in the beer tent? Will be a talking point while people are drinking, and you wouldn't need to weatherproof them.

 

[Ed Sutton]

£4 for an A3 print is pretty good even before you get it weatherproofed. I was going to suggest an A3 laminator but that's around the £40 without buying the prints... I'm assuming they're for display and not for selling?

Clothesline pegs are quite a cheap alternative to bulldog clips and you can get big packs of wooden ones which look nice too.

Have you tried getting in touch and see if they can give you space in the beer tent? Will be a talking point while people are drinking, and you wouldn't need to weatherproof them.

I thought of borrowing a laminator off a friend, but for £4.00 a pop I might as well take that route.

They're not for sale. If they want pics they'll have to buy the book! The quality's OK for display and even indoors will look OK. I bought some small wooden clothes pegs but wasn't keen. probably too small. Bulldog clips will grip better I think. Another idea I had, which would ruin the lamination, was to use blank sheep ear tags!

There's no beer tent at the show, it's in a field next to a pub! But when publication is guaranteed for the book I will investigate other places to display the prints and promotional material.

Affinity has introduced a QR code generator, which I've played with today and will likely incorporate on the prints.

 

[sirch]

I have no issues with the fully justified text which looks perfectly normal for a photobook to me. My nit pick is that the single image on one page with 4 images facing feels a little over used to me, I understand that it fits the image format but may be consider varying that?

It looks really good though and I have nothing but admiration for work like this

 

[Harlequin565]

There's no beer tent at the show

Hmmm.. It appears there are quite a few emoji's for how I feel about a show calling itself a show without a beer tent.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I have no issues with the fully justified text which looks perfectly normal for a photobook to me. My nit pick is that the single image on one page with 4 images facing feels a little over used to me, I understand that it fits the image format but may be consider varying that?

It looks really good though and I have nothing but admiration for work like this

Thanks Chris. Much appreciated.

I know what you mean about the four-to-a-page layouts. I've overdone them in this dummy. It was to see what the pictures looked like in relation to each other and to make the dummy thick enough to give me an idea how the book might 'feel' . When I have more text that I can relate them to I'll be trying a different layout for some. Rather than having individual captions I might have a column of text and a pair of related pictures to a page. As I keep saying, there's a long way to go yet!

Hmmm.. It appears there are quite a few emoji's for how I feel about a show calling itself a show without a beer tent.

There's beer. It's just not in a tent!

 

[Fixer]

Page 22 in Latin was fun !

 

[Ed Sutton]

Not much to report here but the photo sections are filling up and I've got back to researching and writing again. Missing out on some photos this summer has pushed the 'deadline' back about 12 months to this time next year. I've also got a few non-sheep people wanting a copy and a tentative offer of promotion from a National Sheep Association representative. With all the shows and most of the sales out of the way for this year I can get on with it and plan out what else needs photographing.

A new draft layout. Will probably use more photos larger than in other try-outs.

 

[sirch]

Good to see

 

[Ed Sutton]

Good to see

Thanks. It's coming together better in my head now, which has helped me concentrate on getting the sorts of pictures the book needs rather than shooting to see what I get that can be used. A different way of working for me.

 

[FishyFish]

There was a photographer at the 10th Annual Photobook Fair at Impressions Gallery in Bradford yesterday who gave a talk about the work involved in self publishing her book, Halo Tango.

It was interesting, and a little shocking, to see how much it had cost her!

 

[Ed Sutton]

There was a photographer at the 10th Annual Photobook Fair at Impressions Gallery in Bradford yesterday who gave a talk about the work involved in self publishing her book, Halo Tango.

It was interesting, and a little shocking, to see how much it had cost her!

View attachment 436234

How many copies was that for?
Just seen it.

She should have looked into it more before going ahead. What's the 'broker' for other than taking money off you?

My approach is to set a budget and work to it. If that means dropping fancy idea (like special papers) or cutting the print run then so be it. I'm also planning on crowdfunding the sheep book to some degree.

But I'm not interested in making books as 'objects', I see them as a means of recording and disseminating information. So cheap and cheerful works for me!

 

[popcorn]

I'm sure it'll be as well put together as your rods Dave

 

[FishyFish]

How many copies was that for?
Just seen it.

She should have looked into it more before going ahead. What's the 'broker' for other than taking money off you?

My approach is to set a budget and work to it. If that means dropping fancy idea (like special papers) or cutting the print run then so be it. I'm also planning on crowdfunding the sheep book to some degree.

But I'm not interested in making books as 'objects', I see them as a means of recording and disseminating information. So cheap and cheerful works for me!

I got the impression that she wanted to produce her book that way, and probably had an idea of the costs beforehand, but I agree that there are cheaper ways to do these things, including using places like Blurb.

She had copies for sale and it was a nicely put together book, but not really my sort of subject matter (plus I was largely skint anyway ).

 

[Ed Sutton]

I got the impression that she wanted to produce her book that way, and probably had an idea of the costs beforehand, but I agree that there are cheaper ways to do these things, including using places like Blurb.

She had copies for sale and it was a nicely put together book, but not really my sort of subject matter (plus I was largely skint anyway ).

If her idea was to make the book as a piece of art in itself then fair enough. There seems to be a trend these days for making books as 'things'. Stress is put on the paper used, the binding and cover materials, plus 'clever' layouts. e.g. the Daniel Meadows book done by Bluecoat recently. For me it can either be a substitute for good photographs or, as (IMO) in the case of the Meadows book, detract from excellent photos.

But as I'm interested in pictures I'll take good photos over ground-breaking design every time.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I'm sure it'll be as well put together as your rods Dave

Thanks Chris.

 

[FishyFish]

If her idea was to make the book as a piece of art in itself then fair enough. There seems to be a trend these days for making books as 'things'. Stress is put on the paper used, the binding and cover materials, plus 'clever' layouts. e.g. the Daniel Meadows book done by Bluecoat recently. For me it can either be a substitute for good photographs or, as (IMO) in the case of the Meadows book, detract from excellent photos.

But as I'm interested in pictures I'll take good photos over ground-breaking design every time.

Funny you should mention Daniel Meadows, as he was there in person yesterday too. I did consider buying a copy of his Book of the Road (which is the one you're referring to, I presume?) but it cost £45 (although I guess having it signed would have instantly bumped up its value) and I also wasn't 100% sure about the design (and, as mentioned already, I was skint because I'd bought a book at Peter Mitchell's exhibition just a week or so earlier). I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to photobooks - I want the photographs to take centre stage and be presented in a way that best displays them, which for my own preference is simply an image on a page with a white border.

I did get his signature on a Cafe Royal Book (Free Photographic Omnibus Portraits 1973-1974) though.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Funny you should mention Daniel Meadows, as he was there in person yesterday too. I did consider buying a copy of his Book of the Road (which is the one you're referring to, I presume?) but it cost £45 (although I guess having it signed would have instantly bumped up its value) and I also wasn't 100% sure about the design (and, as mentioned already, I was skint because I'd bought a book at Peter Mitchell's exhibition just a week or so earlier). I'm a bit of a traditionalist when it comes to photobooks - I want the photographs to take centre stage and be presented in a way that best displays them, which for my own preference is simply an image on a page with a white border.

I did get his signature on a Cafe Royal Book (Free Photographic Omnibus Portraits 1973-1974) though.

That's the Meadows book. I much prefer photo books to be about the photos. This sheep book isn't a photobook in that sense. Although photos are at the core of it.

I might have gone to Bradford myself yesterday but I had an appointment with some sheep...

Being a contrarian I prefer books without signatures. I bought one off Martin Parr at Worcester a few years back and he immediately started tearing the shrink wrap off it to sign it. I had to stop him! He didn't mind. And I'd got my avatar shot by then anyway.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I had hoped to have this book done and dusted by now but various things outside my control slowed it all down. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for getting one final series of pictures to tie that side of things up. In the meantime I've had a redesign and got motivated to get on with the writing again.

While I liked the idea of going for an A4 landscape format to present the photos large I had another look at a book the Kendal Rough Fell sheep people put together in square format. It looks good and is easier to handle and flick through. So I'm going with that. I've a new cover design in consideration, have tightened up the page layouts and had a 48 page test print done to check typography and see how a few photos reproduce. (I ordered one copy with Mixam and they sent me two.)

A few samples below of test pages below. Comments welcome.

 

[sirch]

Great to see, thanks for sharing

 

[droj]

I had hoped to have this book done and dusted by now but various things outside my control slowed it all down. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for getting one final series of pictures to tie that side of things up. In the meantime I've had a redesign and got motivated to get on with the writing again.

While I liked the idea of going for an A4 landscape format to present the photos large I had another look at a book the Kendal Rough Fell sheep people put together in square format. It looks good and is easier to handle and flick through. So I'm going with that. I've a new cover design in consideration, have tightened up the page layouts and had a 48 page test print done to check typography and see how a few photos reproduce. (I ordered one copy with Mixam and they sent me two.)

A few samples below of test pages below. Comments welcome.

View attachment 456079

View attachment 456083View attachment 456081

It's looking good Dave from the few pages posted. Very well written text ('Lonk country').

 

[Ed Sutton]

Thanks @droj The writing is the hardest part! I'm still battling with what to write about and how. At present my thinking is to have introductory passages for each photo section with a longer piece about the history of the breed. The page numbers are only to help me align the text, but I'm aiming for 150ish pages.

 

[droj]

DO get someone else to proof read it - not so much for sense & style, but at the basic level of grammar, punctuation & typos - before going to print. Not that I've spotted anything, it's just good practice.

 

[Ed Sutton]

DO get someone else to proof read it - not so much for sense & style, but at the basic level of grammar, punctuation & typos - before going to print. Not that I've spotted anything, it's just good practice.

I am pretty good at that myself but I know a fresh pair of eyes always spots things I miss.

I'll also be getting a real sheep expert to read it to check I've not made any mistakes!

 

[viewfromthenorth]

Thanks @droj The writing is the hardest part! I'm still battling with what to write about and how. At present my thinking is to have introductory passages for each photo section with a longer piece about the history of the breed. The page numbers are only to help me align the text, but I'm aiming for 150ish pages.

View attachment 456084

Writing is the biggest headache for me also. I’ve got a book draft done and ready for the printers but I’ve no introductory text because I’ve gone round in circles with it.

In the absence of any inspiration, I pointed ChatGPT at my blog and told it to have a look at that and write something for me. What it came back was actually quite insightful but also somewhat w*nky. It had analysed 15 years of my musings and synthesised it into 800 words. It was almost like a ghost writer had written it as it had sort of understood what I’d written and used various concepts in a quite cohesive way. Don’t get me wrong it wasn’t great but I’ve since fed it more information and it’s now less w*nky than it was.

I’m still uncomfortable with using it in a book as it’s not my words, yet at the same time it is, so I’m a bit conflicted. I’ll probably re-write it in my own words although I’ll then end up in an endless loop of overthinking and rewriting.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Writing is the biggest headache for me also. I’ve got a book draft done and ready for the printers but I’ve no introductory text because I’ve gone round in circles with it.

In the absence of any inspiration, I pointed ChatGPT at my blog and told it to have a look at that and write something for me. What it came back was actually quite insightful but also somewhat w*nky. It had analysed 15 years of my musings and synthesised it into 800 words. It was almost like a ghost writer had written it as it had sort of understood what I’d written and used various concepts in a quite cohesive way. Don’t get me wrong it wasn’t great but I’ve since fed it more information and it’s now less w*nky than it was.

I’m still uncomfortable with using it in a book as it’s not my words, yet at the same time it is, so I’m a bit conflicted. I’ll probably re-write it in my own words although I’ll then end up in an endless loop of overthinking and rewriting.

Usually when I'm writing it's about something I know inside out. With this it's a bit different. The main problem I'm having is working out what I want to say. The more I'm working on it the easier it's getting. The long history section is rather like writing a dissertation though, ordering facts, dates, quotes etc!

As far as the book design goes I think (hope) I got the page layouts, fonts and font sizes, and overall style sorted today.

 

[Ed Sutton]

After a summer and early of more photographing of Lonks a few weeks off have seen me revitalised for this project. I've set a deadline of early September 2026 for completion. Without a deadline it'll drag on until I pop my clogs! This will give me time to get the final sequences of pictures next spring and summer and maybe fill a few holes that might appear as I get the sequencing done.

I've rejigged the content list/sections. One has been removed entirely, partly to save space but also because I can see it becoming my next book project. At current estimations the page count will be around 200.

I spent a day last week going through over 1000 frames shot at the main annual show, gradually thinning the number down to make a final selection. Then I started slotting them into the limited number of page layouts I've decided on. I've found making thumbnail's as below helps envisage the look of the pages. Already this one has had a few changes and I can see a couple more that can be made to tighten things up.



I made a start on the pics for the next section - starting from 4241 which was culled to 235 and eventually 111 to make a final edit from. At that stage my eyes had glazed over so I'm taking a couple of days away from it!

This has made me realise how many really bad photos I've taken, but also how some of the really good ones just don't 'fit' the plan for the book and have to be left out. However, in the unlikely event that I got a chance to do an exhibition from the project those pictures might have a place. Context and audience make a difference.

Anyway, that's the state of play. Two of the photo sections pretty much complete, another in progress, and a deadline set. I'm hoping to get all but two of the sections done by the end of this year. Through spring and early summer the plan is to do the research to finish off the closing essay. No doubt I'll take more photos at shows, and maybe shoot some to fit the requirements of the book depending on how sequencing that section goes.

Having shown one of my dummy copies to the Lonk people I know I'll be able to sell a few. How many remains to be seen. Fingers crossed.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I'm hoping to get all but two of the sections done by the end of this year.

I'm down to selecting photos for the final section I have photos for. I'll not quite make the deadline, but I'll not be far off.

Whittling a shed load of photos down to a manageable number does have to be done in stages or your mind gets frazzled!

Looking through them I reckon I will need to shoot more shows next summer to fill in some glaring gaps though. What is annoying is that I have some that would fit in really well - but they're of other breeds!

 

[Ed Sutton]

This are progressing and the page count is now over 200!

I'd welcome thoughts on the back cover wording.

 

[droj]

Seems quite concise & sensible to me, Dave.

 

[Boots]

Personally, I would shorten the first paragraph a little. I would probably say:

"Lancashire: a county more associated with the birth of the industrial revolution than pastoral farming, yet its uplands gave rise to a breed of sheep as hardy as the people."

 

[Ed Sutton]

Seems quite concise & sensible to me, Dave.

Personally, I would shorten the first paragraph a little. I would probably say:

"Lancashire: a county more associated with the birth of the industrial revolution than pastoral farming, yet its uplands gave rise to a breed of sheep as hardy as the people."

Thanks both. I might have a go at condensing the first paragraph.

In other news I thought I'd get a test print of 200 pages from Mixam. It's arrived. I think pruning is required! My new target is c.150 pages.

 

[droj]

What's the intended paper weight (gsm)?