problem with car service, loss of power and bad brakes

[whitewash]

As for scenics being slow, while they are not a ferrari they are just fine, trust me my first one was a 1.9 130 bhp and I did in excess of 140 000 miles in 3.5 years.

Doing the maths thats about 4.5mph if driven continuosly for 3.5 years over a distance of 140k

OP:When they replaced the wishbone did they possibly remove or loosen the brake line to aid access and then not bleed it back up again afterwards?


Edit there Is NOTHING more annoying than being beaten to the punchline by nilagin

 

[Davec223]

That's only about 4.6mph, that's slow

Very funny.

 

[Yv]

no offense to scenic, but they are a little slower cars than most hence a fair visual example I think



10k minor service, they also did the pipe and changed wish bone as they found "some issues" with them. Sadly I didn't get to see the parts in question. I am not sure I can specify the garage in question at this time so intentionally left it quite generic, but it's based on GOLF and quite big and 100k...



done at another garage with the non-OEM set of pads (that went out soon after), and a service history was given to a dealer. I said 'no' to that for this reason.

wishbone? sooooo.... they have been near brake pipes/front suspension parts, etc etc.... possibly having to disconnect from mountings, etc, possibly disturbing something that is now exhibiting a tiny hole allowing air ingress [generic of course, I dont know the exact make up of your specifics models front end]. Not something you would necessarily be able to detect at the time btw, but would become apparent after a few miles.... possible we could have suggested this right at the beginning if you had given all the facts. Also, wishbones with issues will change the overall 'braking experience' and trust me, I know this from my own very quick 172K renault laguna that had a worn wishbone. Ooops, look, another of the renaults again

 

[tezmed]

now I just checked my engine oil level, and it is overfilled by about 1cm over the dotted mark. And it is deep black, not amber like the last time it got changed elsewhere. This is really worrying now if it wrecks the cat and turbo in no time

you can do damage to the motor overfilling the oil, thats atleast until its burnt off to the required level.... oil becomes dirty very quick, hence the filter.... some places use engine flush where they run your motor to warm the oil, add the flush and then drain the system through the sump....

rest assured the cat will be fine- thats unless you have a real one under the bonnet then it may be cooked... and there would be no effects on the turbo at all

re the wishbones, they can warp if excess bumps/ kerbstrikes etc occur consistently, its possible more the case the the suspension connections had some movement (known as play) so you may have had an uncorrelation between steering wheel front wheels....

 

[digitalfailure]

You're asking me what I can't answer. I haven't a clue whether its meant to be connected to the diagnostics machine. If that is the case that it shouldnt have been, then I can't explain their thinking.
It was a major service, at least that's what I asked for because I was away into Europe the following week. I explained to them about the remap. More than that I can't tell you.
All I can state are the facts, that they put the tuning back to standard and replaced silicone hoses. As far as I was concerned the only useful things they did was oil and filter, air filter, fuel filter. Which I could have happily done myself.
It's not the first poor service from ford. Starting with umpteen steering racks on a Capri in the late 80's, which, for some reason they couldn't get right, to a complete failure of all the brakes on an Escort due to someone not tightening up a clip, to them actually scraping my Sierra on a post service test drive and claiming it was already there, to the advice given on a 2.5 Mondeo that the head gasket had gone when all it was was the crappy plastic impeller on the water pump. I lost a lot of money, needlessly on that car.
The only reason I went back to them last year with my remapped Mondy was I thought they must have got better.
It's a shame for the good mechanics that a few bad experiences can tar all of you with the same brush. I know the majority of you are good and knowledgable, but the very few that aren't screw it up for the rest of you.

I thought you were a mobile mechanic of some time?

The is NO service on Mondeo that requires IDS to be connected to perform a service check. So I'm baffled as to why a garage would spend a precious hour of the techs time to carry it out......and that's without the pipes which a frankly pain in the backside to renew.......and a rather strange thing to do if they're visibly new. And on top of that, just how did it come into conversation that the PCM was remapped to increase power above the standard 130Ps when it was just being dropped off for pretty much exactly what you said......the filters changed and a few other visual checks. After all, there's NO warranty breaches to hide, there's no reported running concerns and no visual sign to show it was ever reprogrammed.

in my personal experience it's always been the exact opposite with owners of modified cars trying their hardest to hide the fact to maintain a warranty.

Re, the head gasket and water pump issue on the 2.5 V6, tbh an awful lot of garages in both franchised dealers and IMT's have been caught out by that as failure of both the impeller and left hand head gasket were quite common at one point and they seemed to go hand in hand with the impeller leading to hot spots around the head causing further failure. Coupled to that I've seen impellers on those pumps that feel solid on the shaft when in the hand, but have spun when the temperature is increased and pressure applied to the cooling system. So I'm not going to call a judgement on that

Capri's .......... nothing worked on them!
Escort's losing brakes because of a clip.....that'd have to be somewhere on the actuating mechanism. Personally never seen that happen so it was either freak or a genuine mistake, but again I've not looked at the cars in question so this is all just pub talk.

interestingly confusing, but pub talk all the same.

 

[tezmed]

without trying to sound off.... could the under powered feeling you have now simply down to the fact its been 'unmapped'?? you'd be used it pulling more than it would have done originally or is it significantly power reduced??

 

[whitewash]

without trying to sound off.... could the under powered feeling you have now simply down to the fact its been 'unmapped'?? you'd be used it pulling more than it would have done originally or is it significantly power reduced??

I dont think the op had his engine remapped, it was jayd who has dragged his issues into the thread causing a bit of confusion

 

[LongLensPhotography]

without trying to sound off.... could the under powered feeling you have now simply down to the fact its been 'unmapped'?? you'd be used it pulling more than it would have done originally or is it significantly power reduced??

first is much weaker than reverse now, 5mph without throttle - this slow needed using clutch before; and 5th (top) required flooring for 3s to get to 70mph. Normally the accelerator only needed a light touch to get there. The other gears feel closer to normal. I don't think it's been remapped before

 

[JayD]

That's strange, my missus always tells me not to confuse the issue.

 

[Richard King]

first is much weaker than reverse now, 5mph without throttle - this slow needed using clutch before; and 5th (top) required flooring for 3s to get to 70mph. Normally the accelerator only needed a light touch to get there. The other gears feel closer to normal. I don't think it's been remapped before

at least your licence will stay clean

 

[Davec223]

first is much weaker than reverse now, 5mph without throttle - this slow needed using clutch before; and 5th (top) required flooring for 3s to get to 70mph. Normally it accelerator only needed touching a little bit to get there. The other gears feel closer to normal. I don't think it's been remapped before

So the first gear thing could be down to the idle speed of the engine being reduced to the correct speed.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

While I would agree that an overfull oil level is poor workmanship, I'd also ask how you checked it. Was the vehicle on level ground and had the engine run and been allowed to settle for a few minutes after shut down when you checked.....or was it a case of being parked on a sloping drive and a stone cold engine when all the residual oil from the top of the engine having time to run back to the sump.
.

cold engine and flat surface. After running it and standing a few min it was just slightly over and the oil was extremely runny.

 

[Richard King]

If you have a problem, take the car back, with a written letter to the garage manager explaining your issues. Invite them to correct the issues, and to write to you with an explanation of the issues and the works carried out to rectify them

However... They cant be responsible for what has happened "after the car left the garage" so in that respect, keep things to the tangible measurable facts

The issue you have with questioning things on a forum like this is that

1. your opinion might be wrong or misplaced
2. your explanation of the issues is easily misinterpreted
3. Other peoples opinions start with a comprehension of your opinions (see point 2)
4. Cars can be very complex, and the answer to your questions may also be very complex (or straightforward)

You seem to be seeking validation for your issues, but in fact, you really need to thrash this out with the garage and/or trading standards if they can not satisfy you. Any validation you get here means as much as asking my mate Dave (who is a good mechanic, but hasn't seen your car)... or My mate Terry, (who hasn't seen your car, and is a crap mechanic, but wannabe opinionated petrol head)

 

[tezmed]

it could be a mapping issue... as most faults wouldnt cause power loss at lower and higher speeds only, it would have power loss throughout the whole gear range....

is the turbo spooling ok, and can you hear/ feel any hold backs (gas recirculation probs) at all??? alternatively is it still revving as normal without the go-as that could be a clutch release plate/ bearing fault.....

realistically you need to get the motor somewhere you can trust and relax in the knowledge that they will inspect the motor and fault find the appropriate fault as we can guess to the cows come home and possibly still not name the fault- nut only speculate on the possibilities....

 

[digitalfailure]

cold engine and flat surface. After running it and standing a few min it was just slightly over and the oil was extremely runny.

Well at least it's runny.....engine oil thickens as it collects soot and breaks down

 

[Graham_P_Clarke]

I must live in the wrong part of the country, as my garage, a main Ford agent, is very good and helpful. I have only had one issue with them in 10years, and that includes a time when I was doing 75k pa in a mondeo.

 

[powell7]

Lack of power sounds like a split or incorrectly fitted inter cooler pipe. Brake fault sounds like a vacuum pipe has been left off of the servo or pump !

 

[specialman]

I must live in the wrong part of the country, as my garage, a main Ford agent, is very good and helpful. I have only had one issue with them in 10years, and that includes a time when I was doing 75k pa in a mondeo.

I've had a few instances where I felt a garage hadn't done a good job, but it's not like every place I visit is bad. I now use a family-run garage next to work that help me out a lot and receive a few beers at Christmas. Seems to keep me getting good service....

Bristol can't be that bad, can it?

 

[mrgas]

I think as far as garages are concerned there's good and bad wherever you go, pretty much in same way there's good and bad brickies, plumbers, hairdressers, wedding photographers etc etc, its grossly unfair to tar the entire motor trade with the same brush just because you feel you have received poor service from a particular garage, surely the correct and responsible way of dealing with it is to contact the garage and tell them the issues you believe you now have with said car.

I've read this thread and TBH I'm confused, do you own a Renault scenic, or a remapped now unmapped mondeo or neither, frankly I'm lost

 

[andya700]

The country is full of responsible and capable garages. Whenever I have dealt retail and anonymously with garages of other franchises I have been pleased with how they have met my expectations and solved my problems. In fact I have been surprised how well I seem to be treated when I read other peoples' keyboard rants.

So let me make a worthwhile suggestion from my experiences. Instead of :razz: and sneering, go back to the garage, explain the problem and seek their help as the professionals they are. If they have made an error, they'll undoubtedly correct it.

Unfortunately Jonathan, there are more than enough bad garages as well, and they are the ones which tend to stick in the mind of those of us unlucky to have been ripped off by them.
I used a local VAG independent last year to have a clutch kit fitted (my DMF fell apart, so I changed over to a single flywheel kit). After 3K miles the new clutch was slipping in 4th and 5th gears and the pedal was heavy and making lloud mechanical grinding sounds. The garage did not want to know about it, so on Friday I took a 240 mile trip up to Barnsley to the place who supplied the clutch/flywheel kit, and when they replaced it with a new unit, they found the following:
The replacement clutch was slipping because it had glazed over, most probably because the garage who had fitted it had not bothered to remove the protective grease from the clutch before fitting it.
Instead of fitting the new clutch release bearing (supplied with the kit) they had packed the old one (which was worn out) with grease and used it as a short cut.
I have now driven the car back from Barnsley and done around 300 miles with the new clutch and it feels like a new car - as it should do.
Unfortunately I now have to start proceedings against the garage who replaced the clutch last year - for the cost of the kit and the fitting plus my out of pocket expenses.

There are many people like the OP and myself who have had bad experiences with tradesmen of all kinds, so please do not be offended when we "offload" about our trials and tribulations.

 

[nilagin]

Unfortunately Jonathan, there are more than enough bad garages as well, and they are the ones which tend to stick in the mind of those of us unlucky to have been ripped off by them.
I used a local VAG independent last year to have a clutch kit fitted (my DMF fell apart, so I changed over to a single flywheel kit). After 3K miles the new clutch was slipping in 4th and 5th gears and the pedal was heavy and making lloud mechanical grinding sounds. The garage did not want to know about it, so on Friday I took a 240 mile trip up to Barnsley to the place who supplied the clutch/flywheel kit, and when they replaced it with a new unit, they found the following:
The replacement clutch was slipping because it had glazed over, most probably because the garage who had fitted it had not bothered to remove the protective grease from the clutch before fitting it.
Instead of fitting the new clutch release bearing (supplied with the kit) they had packed the old one (which was worn out) with grease and used it as a short cut.
I have now driven the car back from Barnsley and done around 300 miles with the new clutch and it feels like a new car - as it should do.
Unfortunately I now have to start proceedings against the garage who replaced the clutch last year - for the cost of the kit and the fitting plus my out of pocket expenses.

There are many people like the OP and myself who have had bad experiences with tradesmen of all kinds, so please do not be offended when we "offload" about our trials and tribulations.

Best of luck with having gone for an smf. A big no, no in my opinion.:nono:

 

[andya700]

I think as far as garages are concerned there's good and bad wherever you go, pretty much in same way there's good and bad brickies, plumbers, hairdressers, wedding photographers etc etc, its grossly unfair to tar the entire motor trade with the same brush just because you feel you have received poor service from a particular garage, surely the correct and responsible way of dealing with it is to contact the garage and tell them the issues you believe you now have with said car.

I've read this thread and TBH I'm confused, do you own a Renault scenic, or a remapped now unmapped mondeo or neither, frankly I'm lost

In one of the early posts, the OP points out quite clearly that the car has a VAG 1.9 Td PD engine (I also have this lump in my Skoda Octavia, and should point out that plenty of people on the forum carry out a turbo service every couple of years).
The black oil as others have pointed out, is quite common soon after it has been changed.
I would be very concerned at the loss of braking efficiency, because I have owned VW's, Audis and Skodas in the past, and the brakes have always been excellent, even in older cars.

 

[nilagin]

I've read this thread and TBH I'm confused, do you own a Renault scenic, or a remapped now unmapped mondeo or neither, frankly I'm lost

The OP owns neither.

 

[andya700]

Best of luck with having gone for an smf. A big no, no in my opinion.:nono:

Why?
There are plenty of people on the Skoda and VW forums who have had them changed, and even the dealerships are changing them over if the customer requests it.
Most of the taxi drivers in my area have had the change done, and they seem to have clocked up six figure mileages on them with no problems.

 

[Slimbert]

There are many people like the OP and myself who have had bad experiences with tradesmen of all kinds, so please do not be offended when we "offload" about our trials and tribulations.

I don't think Jonathan was offended that people were moaning about bad experiences they'd had.....but I think he was a bit peeved by the ridiculous sweeping statement made by the thread starter:

you just can't trust anyone in car trade and servicing in this country these days

I've been using a Ford main dealer for all my servicing etc for the last four
years and I've never had anything but great service from them.....which in itself, is proof that the OP is incorrect.

 

[nilagin]

Why?
There are plenty of people on the Skoda and VW forums who have had them changed, and even the dealerships are changing them over if the customer requests it.
Most of the taxi drivers in my area have had the change done, and they seem to have clocked up six figure mileages on them with no problems.

Certain cars are fitted with dmf's for a reason. This is to balance out and reduce shock loadings within the engine and gearbox. If alternative measures aren't taken after converting to a smf you risk destroying the gearbox and/or the engine. Many people have experienced twisted crankshafts etc after an smf conversion. Seems daft to risk a few grands worth of damage just to save a couple of hundred quid at best.
I've also heard of one car manufacturer (don't know which one) who are in the throws of taking a garage to court for converting cars to smf after cars ened up with damaged engines as a result.
Car manufacturers are now looking into injecting extra fuel at alternative times during the ignition cycle to smooth out the engine so that dmf's wouldn't be necessary on future engines.

 

[andya700]

Certain cars are fitted with dmf's for a reason. This is to balance out and reduce shock loadings within the engine and gearbox. If alternative measures aren't taken after converting to a smf you risk destroying the gearbox and/or the engine. Many people have experienced twisted crankshafts etc after an smf conversion. Seems daft to risk a few grands worth of damage just to save a couple of hundred quid at best.
I've also heard of one car manufacturer (don't know which one) who are in the throws of taking a garage to court for converting cars to smf after cars ened up with damaged engines as a result.
Car manufacturers are now looking into injecting extra fuel at alternative times during the ignition cycle to smooth out the engine so that dmf's wouldn't be necessary on future engines.

Which is exactly why it is sensible to have CERTAIN cars converted when the DMF goes. Unlike SMF's, the newer DMF's have been failing at ridiculously low mileages, and the technology has clearly not advanced to a stage where it is reliable.

 

[nilagin]

Which is exactly why it is sensible to have CERTAIN cars converted when the DMF goes. Unlike SMF's, the newer DMF's have been failing at ridiculously low mileages, and the technology has clearly not advanced to a stage where it is reliable.

I disagree. I've just recently had my clutch replaced at 92k after I destroyed the slave cylinder. The dmf was in no way needing immediate replacement, probably could have got at least another 40k out of it, but because the car was already in pieces it made sense to replace it at the same time. My mates dmf has just failed at 189k miles. Risking the cost of several £k for a new engine and/or gearbox or even scrapping a car just to save a couple of hundred quid doesn't make sense. I'm all for improving a car, but an smf on a car requiring a dmf isn't an improvement. Do you really think manufacturers would spend millions developing engines and drive train when something isn't really necessary.

 

[AJQS]

I disagree. I've just recently had my clutch replaced at 92k after I destroyed the slave cylinder. The dmf was in no way needing immediate replacement, probably could have got at least another 40k out of it, but because the car was already in pieces it made sense to replace it at the same time. My mates dmf has just failed at 189k miles. Risking the cost of several £k for a new engine and/or gearbox or even scrapping a car just to save a couple of hundred quid doesn't make sense. I'm all for improving a car, but an smf on a car requiring a dmf isn't an improvement. Do you really think manufacturers would spend millions developing engines and drive train when something isn't really necessary.

I dunno, I'd consider a DMF as an alternative to a beefier crankshaft a bit of a poor show from any manufacturer. That said, the whole point of it would be a smoother drive, less rotational mass and therefore more efficiency and higher power output and free-er (sp?) revving, so perhaps it's all worthwhile!

 

[Nick_1981]

The biggest issue you'll notice switching from a DMF to a SMF will be vibration at idle, and in a lot of cases rattling through the gearbox

 

[Defiance]

no offense to scenic, but they are a little slower cars than most hence a fair visual example I think

10k minor service, they also did the pipe and changed wish bone as they found "some issues" with them. Sadly I didn't get to see the parts in question. I am not sure I can specify the garage in question at this time so intentionally left it quite generic, but it's based on GOLF and quite big and 100k...

done at another garage with the non-OEM set of pads (that went out soon after), and a service history was given to a dealer. I said 'no' to that for this reason.

Back on topic...

So we now have more facts and a new repair not previously mentioned.

It's also now evident that you have some history of brake concerns and i'd query what was/was not done before and when and why. You need to tell the dealer all of this for them to investigate properly rather than blame them without proof.

If you had a minor 10k service then it's reasonable to assume more than half the cost was the pipe and wishbone (although now confused as to whether it's the pipe or the seals as you have not been consistent in explaining).

If you didn't complain of anything and they replaced the pipes/seals and wishbone they will have contacted you for authorisation prior to commencing and its reasonable to expect that you were satisfied to authorise it on the basis of what you were told. It is also reasonable to expect that you got an explanation of the failure. If you authorised them on being told it was "some issues" without asking for more detail, to see the car, or ask the dealer to retain the parts then you have little grounds for complaint after the fact. If you weren't happy you should not have authorised the repairs.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Back on topic...

So we now have more facts and a new repair not previously mentioned.

It's also now evident that you have some history of brake concerns and i'd query what was/was not done before and when and why. You need to tell the dealer all of this for them to investigate properly rather than blame them without proof.

If you had a minor 10k service then it's reasonable to assume more than half the cost was the pipe and wishbone (although now confused as to whether it's the pipe or the seals as you have not been consistent in explaining).

If you didn't complain of anything and they replaced the pipes/seals and wishbone they will have contacted you for authorisation prior to commencing and its reasonable to expect that you were satisfied to authorise it on the basis of what you were told. It is also reasonable to expect that you got an explanation of the failure. If you authorised them on being told it was "some issues" without asking for more detail, to see the car, or ask the dealer to retain the parts then you have little grounds for complaint after the fact. If you weren't happy you should not have authorised the repairs.

Erm you have missed the point. Yes they phoned me about the parts and I was ok with that, but not with the fact the car feels and drives like an old bager after the service. I did not authorise wrecking the car, and now I am concerned about all the rest

 

[mini0ne]

as someone who changes their car way too often in my experience ford and VAG garages except skoda are shocking for customer service especially once you have bought the car

bmw/mini volvo and vauxhall have all been excellent

 

[Defiance]

Erm you have missed the point. Yes they phoned me about the parts and I was ok with that, but not with the fact the car feels and drives like an old bager after the service. I did not authorise wrecking the car, and now I am concerned about all the rest

Not at all. The point is you have been quick to draw conclusions and blame here whilst being very economical with the facts.

As a result it's very difficult to attach any credibility to what you're saying.

 

[nilagin]

as someone who changes their car way too often in my experience ford and VAG garages except skoda are shocking for customer service especially once you have bought the car

bmw/mini volvo and vauxhall have all been excellent

I've used 4 different Ford dealers in my area over the last 32 years of driving and never had any problem with any of them. As mentioned before, they have even carried out some non warranty work for free without prompting.

 

[Lynton]

That's only about 4.6mph, that's slow

ha ha.....

 

[LongLensPhotography]

as to issues with garages per say...... i've personally had very bad issues with garages in my local area- one of which left my vehicle unlocked at the roadside for a weekend and allowed some toerag to thieve a £6500 soundsystem/xbox/tvs throughout the car etc, to which i had no comeback despite going through courts etc and the like.....

Just remembered I had this too way back when I owned a red Clio . There was nothing valuable in it, so nothing got stolen. That was more or less central bristol.
Another 'fast' garage nearby back in those days had clamped my brakes and simply forgot about it. I discovered about it in another branch in Exeter (thumbs up to them). Why they have done it is beyond me, but I have certainly in no way offended or annoyed any one of them. That was a criminal offence and I don't know why I complained to the head office and not the police.

So you can see why I have so much trust in the trade... Lack of brake performance now brought back those memories. As you can see I am fairly used to driving without working brakes

Anyway, the letter is printed and I hope that for a change they will listen and help willingly.


edit: just noticed, one of the garages I used has this as their slogan

Because a good garage in Bristol is hard to find

While they did *most* things OK, they misdiagnosed a few and cost me an absolute fortune (more than main dealer would charge) for a normal full service and nothing else.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

I've been there today, talked to the manager, spent 4 hours waiting and got next to nothing out of it. They clearly know their talk a little bit better than diagnostics. So it is 'fine, just like all other cars we've driven'. So I am £407 worse off, the car is horrible to drive in my view. Does anyone else think that revving a diesel to 4000-5000 rpm is acceptable?

I suspect this is about time I look into self-servicing. Are there any great easy to follow yet advanced books on VAG TDI computer diagnotics (VCDS), coding and tuning manuals? If I can get a Phd in chemistry I can also do this much

 

[pepi1967]

I've been there today, talked to the manager, spent 4 hours waiting and got next to nothing out of it. They clearly know their talk a little bit better than diagnostics. So it is 'fine, just like all other cars we've driven'. So I am £407 worse off, the car is horrible to drive in my view. Does anyone else think that revving a diesel to 4000-5000 rpm is acceptable?

I suspect this is about time I look into self-servicing. Are there any great easy to follow yet advanced books on VAG TDI computer diagnotics (VCDS), coding and tuning manuals? If I can get a Phd in chemistry I can also do this much

Join a vag forum. thousands on the net.

 

[Davec223]

I've been there today, talked to the manager, spent 4 hours waiting and got next to nothing out of it. They clearly know their talk a little bit better than diagnostics. So it is 'fine, just like all other cars we've driven'. So I am £407 worse off, the car is horrible to drive in my view. Does anyone else think that revving a diesel to 4000-5000 rpm is acceptable?

I suspect this is about time I look into self-servicing. Are there any great easy to follow yet advanced books on VAG TDI computer diagnotics (VCDS), coding and tuning manuals? If I can get a Phd in chemistry I can also do this much

What is virtually next to nothing? Also in your opinion they know the talk better than diagnostics, of course for all we know your car is fine and you are expecting to much.

The other thing is perhaps you just keep buying bad cars, as you haven't been happy with any of the cars you have owned, or just unrealistic as to what you want and expect.