problem with car service, loss of power and bad brakes

Dave, I was perfectly happy with my current car until this service, although there is nothing wrong with wanting more performance. Now I am not happy with this car any more. If I had just bought it I may not realise just how much it lost literally overnight.

re diagnotics, I did expect them to pull out their diagnostic equipment and do some live testing and analyse performance graphs to find the cause for power loss. They only did a basic OBD error scan in a garage and found no codes (I knew that already). That makes sense because it takes a lot to generate OBD error. The interesting part came, when they told me that they are now unable to do almost anything with ECU settings any more. I really didn't get that.
 
pepi1967 said:
Join a vag forum. thousands on the net.
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sorry which one please? I've tried a couple and they were pretty dead, maybe a post a day if you are lucky. I knew a good forum for mercs with good traffic so would be nice to find similar
 
The vw Audi forum is quite good.
 
Try the honestjohn site. He does consumer advice for the Telegraph.
 
pepi1967 said:
The vw Audi forum is quite good.
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thanks, registered. I will give it a go and hopefully I won't have to post any more such topics on TP :lol:
 
daugirdas said:
thanks, registered. I will give it a go and hopefully I won't have to post any more such topics on TP :lol:
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Hope it works for you. it did for me when i needed help on my V5 engine.
 
OBD scanners and codes are usually pretty accurate and they don't take a major fault before they are set, the majority of the codes DO need to be seen 3 times by the status monitor before the fault moves from being a pending code and set to permanent. If there's no codes there's nothing functionally wrong.... It doesn't rule out a sensor mis reading if its still within its parameters. Some systems will give a code if a sensor is reading higher or lower than expected, but not all.

Unless they used a data logging system they won't even see live data, and even then, it's not in graph form like a dyno print would be ( x,y Axis) its just a series of text lines and a few bar graphs for the individual sensor / actuator.

The pumpe duese system is antiquated now and didn't really have the same diagnostic ability as today's euro 5 high pressure common rail systems either.

Did they drive the car to check for your alleged power performance and long travel on the brakes?

A leak on the pressure side of the turbo will cause a powerless and excess black smoke and if bad enough you'll here the air pressure escaping.
 
digitalfailure said:
OBD scanners and codes are usually pretty accurate and they don't take a major fault before they are set, the majority of the codes DO need to be seen 3 times by the status monitor before the fault moves from being a pending code and set to permanent. If there's no codes there's nothing functionally wrong.... It doesn't rule out a sensor mis reading if its still within its parameters. Some systems will give a code if a sensor is reading higher or lower than expected, but not all.

Unless they used a data logging system they won't even see live data, and even then, it's not in graph form like a dyno print would be ( x,y Axis) its just a series of text lines and a few bar graphs for the individual sensor / actuator.

The pumpe duese system is antiquated now and didn't really have the same diagnostic ability as today's euro 5 high pressure common rail systems either.

Did they drive the car to check for your alleged power performance and long travel on the brakes?

A leak on the pressure side of the turbo will cause a powerless and excess black smoke and if bad enough you'll here the air pressure escaping.
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Within the limits is what I suspect. That within is robbing me of about 30% power I had. Full VCDS scanner can see a lot more VW specific codes than a cheaper generic scanner I used. I have no idea what the dealer has, but common sense would suggest it is the VW one (for £10k+).

They did drive it round the block with a fairly heavy foot, straight past 3000rpm in each gear like some petrol monster and so didn't really see what happens at lower rpms
 
daugirdas said:
Within the limits is what I suspect. That within is robbing me of about 30% power I had. Full VCDS scanner can see a lot more VW specific codes than a cheaper generic scanner I used. I have no idea what the dealer has, but common sense would suggest it is the VW one (for £10k+).

They did drive it round the block with a fairly heavy foot, straight past 3000rpm in each gear like some petrol monster and so didn't really see what happens at lower rpms
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I would hardly say going over 3000 rpm is a petrol monster, you do have to drive a tdi a little more briskly, to keep it on song, drop off the turbo and you do have lack lustre performance, may be just maybe a component has failed and service is just coincidence.
 
No reason not to go above 3000, it helps keep the crap from building up in the exhaust. Diagnostic trouble codes have been standardised sine 2001 for petrol and 2003 for diesel, there might be the odd code that shows with a poor description on the cheaper tools as they might not have access to brand specific descriptions.... But the dtc will still show

Can I ask what rpm you usually change gear at?
 
digitalfailure said:
No reason not to go above 3000, it helps keep the crap from building up in the exhaust. Diagnostic trouble codes have been standardised sine 2001 for petrol and 2003 for diesel, there might be the odd code that shows with a poor description on the cheaper tools as they might not have access to brand specific descriptions.... But the dtc will still show

Can I ask what rpm you usually change gear at?
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2600 seem to land me at 1700 which is where all the proper torque begins on that car. The numbers are probably incorrect, just as the speed readings. 3000 is fairly aggressive and anything above is just pure noise, excess fuel used and not much more response. This is where I expect a petrol to behave differently
 
daugirdas said:
2600 seem to land me at 1700 which is where all the proper torque begins on that car. The numbers are probably incorrect, just as the speed readings. 3000 is fairly aggressive and anything above is just pure noise, excess fuel used and not much more response. This is where I expect a petrol to behave differently
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Also what rpm does your turbo kick in? I have always found that you have to drive diesels differently you definitely have to stir the box more and keep the revs up more to get the pick up and go from them, as I said above drop off the turbo and diesels are as flat as a very flat thing.
 
Did you ask to know and/or did they tell you everything they did in the 4 hours (again, all the facts) ?

For example, what did they do in respect to checking pipes, joins etc ?

What did they do in respect to your concerns over brake performance ?

Did you mention to them any of the history of brake concerns you have had ?

Did you ask any more about why they replaced the intercooler pipes or seals ? Did they check these again ?

Did you ask if any of the brake components had to be disconnected to change the wishbones ?

Did they do any other physical checks ?


It doesn't surprise me that there are no OBD codes - if there were the chances are it would be another concern independent of any of the repairs you have already paid for.

Not sure why you consider £407 (or was it £417) a waste ? The car needed a service, the pipe/seals had failed and so had the wishbones. Your issue is that you either have separate concerns which still require repair, the new pipes/seals fitted are faulty (which can occasionally happen), and/or something was disturbed in the course of the repairs (although I would expect them to find these if they retraced their steps repair-wise as its likely to be something simple).
 
I know very little about engines... but a couple of years ago my Fiat 1.9TD had a tiny fracture in the radiator and lost coolant. The van behaved exactly the same as described by the OP including the brake problem, which I never understood but sorted the cooling and everything worked just as it it should...... Just saying...
 
Davec223 said:
Also what rpm does your turbo kick in? I have always found that you have to drive diesels differently you definitely have to stir the box more and keep the revs up more to get the pick up and go from them, as I said above drop off the turbo and diesels are as flat as a very flat thing.
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somewhere above 2000

Defiance said:
Did you ask to know and/or did they tell you everything they did in the 4 hours (again, all the facts) ?

the manager told me that they de-glazed brake pads (why?! the noises are still there, but now they blame the rear and sent me home until it becomes even noisier) and had a look for the leaks from the pipes - nothing found, no more details than that

For example, what did they do in respect to checking pipes, joins etc ?

checked it for leaks, but no specific details given.

What did they do in respect to your concerns over brake performance ?

told me it passes MOT standards and this is all they can do

Did you mention to them any of the history of brake concerns you have had ?

yes

Did you ask any more about why they replaced the intercooler pipes or seals ? Did they check these again ?

slight oil leak, and it sounds like yes

Did you ask if any of the brake components had to be disconnected to change the wishbones ?

the answer was no there

Did they do any other physical checks ?

no idea

It doesn't surprise me that there are no OBD codes - if there were the chances are it would be another concern independent of any of the repairs you have already paid for.

Not sure why you consider £407 (or was it £417) a waste ? The car needed a service, the pipe/seals had failed and so had the wishbones. Your issue is that you either have separate concerns which still require repair, the new pipes/seals fitted are faulty (which can occasionally happen), and/or something was disturbed in the course of the repairs (although I would expect them to find these if they retraced their steps repair-wise as its likely to be something simple).
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service is all good, but when the oil is overfilled and coolant not changed you get concerned. They removed the extra oil now and I hope it wasn't too late. And yes, I am now very concerned what happened elsewhere so that the car is now different. Overall, I would have preferred to have spent that money at another garage.
 
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digitalfailure said:
No reason not to go above 3000, it helps keep the crap from building up in the exhaust. Diagnostic trouble codes have been standardised sine 2001 for petrol and 2003 for diesel, there might be the odd code that shows with a poor description on the cheaper tools as they might not have access to brand specific descriptions.... But the dtc will still show

Can I ask what rpm you usually change gear at?
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It sounds as though I have the same engine (1.9 TD PD) as the OP in my Octavia. To give you an idea, the car is doing 2400RPM at 70MPH, but the turbo normally kicks in around 2100RPM. You can drive comfortably in top gear on the motorway, unless the speed drops below 60MPH, then you need to change down to get in the power band to get up to speed again.
On the continent, we were able to accellerate from 65MPH right up to around 90MPH in top (with more to come) with a steady powerful surge.
When you need to use the low down power to get away, then it is possible to rev it to 4000RPM in the lower gears - I suspect that done every so often this will have a beneficial effect on the engine and turbo.
 
neil_g said:
I don't think coolant is changed that regular on those. I'd check my service book but I sold my pd130 last week.
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Looks like I will have to put some myself very soon. Do VAGs require any special spec, or will Halfords fluid do?

andy700 said:
It sounds as though I have the same engine (1.9 TD PD) as the OP in my Octavia. To give you an idea, the car is doing 2400RPM at 70MPH, but the turbo normally kicks in around 2100RPM. You can drive comfortably in top gear on the motorway, unless the speed drops below 60MPH, then you need to change down to get in the power band to get up to speed again.
On the continent, we were able to accellerate from 65MPH right up to around 90MPH in top (with more to come) with a steady powerful surge.
When you need to use the low down power to get away, then it is possible to rev it to 4000RPM in the lower gears - I suspect that done every so often this will have a beneficial effect on the engine and turbo.
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That sounds about right, it used to be like that. Now it accelerates so slowly before 2000rpm it is just hopeless to even hit the powerband before flooring the throttle. This morning I struggled to keep up with a lorry in a traffic jam :cuckoo:
 
Davec223 said:
I would hardly say going over 3000 rpm is a petrol monster, you do have to drive a tdi a little more briskly, to keep it on song, drop off the turbo and you do have lack lustre performance, may be just maybe a component has failed and service is just coincidence.
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Don't know about any other makes of TDi engines, but I've never had any power drop off problems with Ford engines. Back in 95 I had a Fiesta 1.8D, no turbo and only way to prevent power drop off was keep foot on the accelerater as you changed gear. That car was followed by 2 Mondeo 1.8TD's no power drop off was evident. After a couple of petrol engines, I've now returned to a Ford TDCi. No power drop off and certainly no lack luster performance. Fitting a decat will improve response as there is no catalytic converter to strangle the turbo. Fitting a larger intercooler will improve engine smoothness and adds bags of torque and totally transform the engine feel and power delivery. Then you can always have a remap.
 
nilagin said:
Don't know about any other makes of TDi engines, but I've never had any power drop off problems with Ford engines. Back in 95 I had a Fiesta 1.8D, no turbo and only way to prevent power drop off was keep foot on the accelerater as you changed gear. That car was followed by 2 Mondeo 1.8TD's no power drop off was evident. After a couple of petrol engines, I've now returned to a Ford TDCi. No power drop off and certainly no lack luster performance. Fitting a decat will improve response as there is no catalytic converter to strangle the turbo. Fitting a larger intercooler will improve engine smoothness and adds bags of torque and totally transform the engine feel and power delivery. Then you can always have a remap.
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stop tempting me to spend the 5DIII cash elsewhere :nuts:


I guess I should be looking at some minimal upgrades though, as long as that wouldn't have to force insurance premium through the roof. The car needed fuel efficiency boost and there are times I could do with more turbo response. Am I the only one thinking that underpowered car is actually quite dangerous once you made a slight judgement error somewhere (like poorly indicated lanes, etc)

edit: I think I will decat it when the exhaust eventually dies, but is it legal? edit: since 2012 decat will fail MOT. ECU mods may follow in the future. What a wonderful world!
 
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daugirdas said:
edit: I think I will decat it when the exhaust eventually dies, but is it legal? edit: since 2012 decat will fail MOT. ECU mods may follow in the future. What a wonderful world!
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A decat is only a failure on a spark ignition engined vehicle, ie petrol. The cat is usually below the turbo and before the flexi pipe section of the exhaust, you can replace it at anytime. Only ecu mods likely to be deemed a failure in the future would be tuning boxes. A remap would be difficult to detect especially as car manufacturers are always updating software to improve problems as they crop up. The database required to store the oem map or manufacurer update for each model of car would never be able to keep up.
 
nilagin said:
A remap would be difficult to detect especially as car manufacturers are always updating software to improve problems as they crop up. The database required to store the oem map or manufacurer update for each model of car would never be able to keep up.
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Plus there are a number of devices you can buy which allow you to add/remove a custom map as and when you want to i.e. Blufin and http://www.viezu.com/v-switch ;)

Now of course you'd need to declare both to your insurance company but they could be removed before an MOT............ If you read the small print off the MOT it says that it only proves the car met the test criteria on the day of testing (I've paraphrased a bit :lol: )
 
Are you seriously considering remapping as a fix of a perceived "over night" power / performance loss ?

You might as well give the money to a charity.

I'd also question the suitability of a performance increase above standard on an old engine that's half way to the moon.
 
digitalfailure said:
Are you seriously considering remapping as a fix of a perceived "over night" power / performance loss ?

You might as well give the money to a charity.

I'd also question the suitability of a performance increase above standard on an old engine that's half way to the moon.
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I didn't make this very clear then. It is obviously pointless remapping now, but perhaps that silicone intercooler pipe is just the thing I need if it comes to the last resort car-fixing option. That dealer's replacement pipe made my car suck in one way or another.
Remap is something I could think about but at £400 I really need to be convinced properly. I would argue that it makes less sense to remap new car and void warranty. Mines still got a long way to the scrap if I don't let more **** happen to it.
 
daugirdas said:
I didn't make this very clear then. It is obviously pointless remapping now, but perhaps that silicone intercooler pipe is just the thing I need if it comes to the last resort car-fixing option. That dealer's replacement pipe made my car suck in one way or another.
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I would say that it is very doubtful that a replacement pipe could cause all the problems you have mentioned, but then again I have only been around cars for thirty years, and have rebuilt two engines and countless cylinder heads. You could of course take the pipe off, check for blockages, check on the internet as to the diameter of the pipe, and if all is well - then it isn't the pipe at fault.
Silicon pipe is not an answer to everything. It looks very good, is very durable, but whether or not it performs better in ordinary circumstances than OEM parts - that is questionable.
I would not throw money at a car which is running badly - I would solve the problems first.
 
andy700 said:
I would say that it is very doubtful that a replacement pipe could cause all the problems you have mentioned, but then again I have only been around cars for thirty years, and have rebuilt two engines and countless cylinder heads. You could of course take the pipe off, check for blockages, check on the internet as to the diameter of the pipe, and if all is well - then it isn't the pipe at fault.
Silicon pipe is not an answer to everything. It looks very good, is very durable, but whether or not it performs better in ordinary circumstances than OEM parts - that is questionable.
I would not throw money at a car which is running badly - I would solve the problems first.
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If the pipe was the wrong diameter, it wouldn't fit, unless the pipe is oversized and the clamp can't seal it properly.
Can't vouch for the silicone pipe in question, but I've replaced all my boost pipes with Forge silicone pipes. The engine holds boost longer and they are less prone to splitting unlike rubber ones.
 
nilagin said:
If the pipe was the wrong diameter, it wouldn't fit, unless the pipe is oversized and the clamp can't seal it properly.
Can't vouch for the silicone pipe in question, but I've replaced all my boost pipes with Forge silicone pipes. The engine holds boost longer and they are less prone to splitting unlike rubber ones.
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This is what I said:

"Silicon pipe is not an answer to everything. It looks very good, is very durable, but whether or not it performs better in ordinary circumstances than OEM parts - that is questionable."

What do you mean by the phrase - "The engine holds boost longer"? - This would be down to ancillary components, such as the turbo size, wastegate, rather than one silicon pipe.
What sort of speeds are you doing for this to be at all relevant to a normal road going car?
 
I really need to establish the source of problem properly with diagnostic tools, but I can bet money there is either a leak from around that pipe and the new seals made it far worse, or they a sensor nearby has been affected due to some airflow or vacuum problem. What sensors are there on the bottom near inter cooler?
If it is the former, the silicone pipe must fix it. I doesn't look very expensive just to try

Ps. Is there any reason that Torque reports 95% throttle no matter what? Is it just another fluke from that app?
 
daugirdas said:
I really need to establish the source of problem properly with diagnostic tools, but I can bet money there is either a leak from around that pipe and the new seals made it far worse, or they a sensor nearby has been affected due to some airflow or vacuum problem. What sensors are there on the bottom near inter cooler?
If it is the former, the silicone pipe must fix it. I doesn't look very expensive just to try

Ps. Is there any reason that Torque reports 95% throttle no matter what? Is it just another fluke from that app?
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you need to stop whinging about it on a forum and go and get it infront of a good mechanic and trust him/her to do a good job

Why not go on a car forum and ask for a recommendation for a solid mechanic
 
andy700 said:
What do you mean by the phrase - "The engine holds boost longer"? - This would be down to ancillary components, such as the turbo size, wastegate, rather than one silicon pipe.
What sort of speeds are you doing for this to be at all relevant to a normal road going car?
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No wastegate on a TDCi (or not on Ford TDCi's anyway). Rubber hoses tend to be more supple and swell under boost. Silicone hoses, if made properly don't, they retain their shape and hold the boost better. Even without other alterations this allows the power and torque to last longer before they start to drop towards the end of the rev range and you have to change gear on fast acceleration even within speed limits.
 
nilagin said:
No wastegate on a TDCi (or not on Ford TDCi's anyway). Rubber hoses tend to be more supple and swell under boost. Silicone hoses, if made properly don't, they retain their shape and hold the boost better. Even without other alterations this allows the power and torque to last longer before they start to drop towards the end of the rev range and you have to change gear on fast acceleration even within speed limits.
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Only the variable geometry turbochargers don't feature a wastegate, there are still a few in the range that have standard wastegate turbos.....but they are slowly dying out.

Your Mondy has either a Vacuum or Electronic actuator which alters the position of the vanes inside the turbine housing, as a result of the movement of these vanes the speed and flow of the exhaust gasses can increase or decrease the speed of the turbine so we no longer need to bypass the turbo when full boost is reached and we can sustain a power band longer by tuning the flow into the turbo over a much greater RPM range.


Re the Silicone hoses, upgraded performance hoses are a benefit in the pressure rise phase, meaning that the boosted intake charge is actually delivered to the cylinder without losses caused by expanding the pipework but you'd be hard pushed in real world motoring to feel any performance benefit over standard. Even silicone hoses expand when the pressure rises, In key positions you'll often see metal rings in place to restrict expansion on many intercooler hoses of both silicone and rubber construction.
 
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