Presenting photos with no exif data

Awgydawg said:
Yeah, I'm waiting to be called an 'Exif Denier' - I can see the torches being lit for a burning :)
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To be fair, you yourself have provided the kindling.
 
="Awgydawg, post: 7791357, member: 85637"]
="If you're not happy with what you get here, there are other forums.....:)
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Mmmmm.... If you don't like it here, go back to where you came from? Where have I heard that before?

Did I say I didn't like it here?

I just made a suggestion which may help people to learn to take better photos. Exif data helps me, this is my opinion.
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OKAY- as you won't share, see if this helps...
1-125-f10-1 by Phil Vaughan, on Flickr
and
Mount-Pleasant-Sneak-peek07 by Phil Vaughan, on Flickr
both shot at 1/125 and f:10
what does that exif info tell you about those shots?
They'd struggle to be more different (in my portfolio). without the intent the exif means nothing. I rarely shoot as small an aperture as f10 - so here's some useful 'information':
On the car shot F10 came about to get the right shutter speed for the right amount of movement for the panning shot 1/125 was chosen to keep camera movement within the range of reasonable.
On the shot of the couple, F10 was what I needed to get the flash to balance with the sky at the right SS to keep things sharp and within the power range of the flash used. Just to put a tin hat on it - the exif says 'flash did not fire' :D

If you want any more 'details' feel free to ask - but what why how and where are much more useful than lens, camera, ISO or what I'd had for lunch.
 
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Awgydawg said:
. Exif data helps me, this is my opinion.
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How, exactly, does it help you?
All it does is inform you what settings were used for that one shot.
Unless you're planning to go to exactly the same location, with exactly the same conditions/light etc to try to exactly recreate that image, the exif is of little or no value to you.
 
TheBigYin said:
...
because, ultimately, an image WITHOUT some sort of message (either implied or overt) is pretty much just either eye-candy or a record shot. neither of which, I personally find appealing, either to look at or to spend time making.
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And to prove the point...
I posted 'a record shot' and 'some eye candy' :whistle:
 
viv1969 said:
How, exactly, does it help you?
All it does is inform you what settings were used for that one shot.
Unless you're planning to go to exactly the same location, with exactly the same conditions/light etc to try to exactly recreate that image, the exif is of little or no value to you.
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So...... you don't see YouTube instructional videos for specific cameras and genres? If you did, you will see it's about camera type, settings, lens, etc.... Yes composition is also very important, as is post processing.

For me it is helpful to know what equipment was used and what settings, lens type etc.

There are obviously a lot of ooooooo, aaarrrrrrrr photographers that want to massage their own ego by posting their (or someone else's) art on a forum, I understand human nature, knowledge is power and all that. I have taught many things, I am born teacher, so I am open and want to share my knowledge so that others can improve. Where would we be if Faraday hadn't meticulously documented his experiments?

Anyway, this is turning into a witch hunt with name calling, and some are not understanding or reading my posts correctly, so I will desist from antagonising more people.
 
Phil V said:
And to prove the point...
I posted 'a record shot' and 'some eye candy' :whistle:
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plenty of implied messages on the people shot Phil... certainly if you're something of a cynic about relationships like myself - "first the wedding, then the storms begin..." sprang to my bitter and twisted mind!

FWIW, and IMO, most motorsport and wildlife work is, to a greater or lesser degree, "record shots" - that's not dismissing it, as it can be damned difficult to ensure that you get a record of things that are fast moving, far away, and generally thoroughly un-cooperative when it comes to asking for "just one more shot, please".... ;)
 
Awgydawg said:
...

Anyway, this is turning into a witch hunt with name calling, and some are not understanding or reading my posts correctly, so I will desist from antagonising more people.
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On the contrary...
You've failed to support your 'argument' in any meaningful way and outright ignored any meaningful posts that would further a discussion.
You've answered only posts you could interpret as antagonistic and been keen to paint yourself as a victim.
FWIW I don't believe you're a 'teacher', I teach and I've furthered the knowledge of hundreds of photographers, both online and face to face. Nothing about your behaviour here leads me to believe that you understand how people learn, how understanding is developed, or indeed anything about 'photography'.

I've watched hundreds of hours of photography learning where 'technical details' made up just a few minutes of the entire content, I've seen inspirational talks by some genuine 'masters' and technical details were missing completely. Like many of us have said - the purely 'technical' aspects of photography are fairly simple to learn, the important stuff takes years - and will never happen for people who obsess about the technical. I'm over 30 years in, and I learn something new most weeks - but not from 'exif'
 
Awgydawg said:
So...... you don't see YouTube instructional videos for specific cameras and genres? If you did, you will see it's about camera type, settings, lens, etc.... Yes composition is also very important, as is post processing.

For me it is helpful to know what equipment was used and what settings, lens type etc.
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The only instructional video I've looked at was about how to open and fold a specific large format camera....

The last part of the post I quoted referred to what you found helpful, and that clearly depends on your aims and preferred subject matter. I can see that in the "bird on a stick" field knowing what shutter speeds will avoid camera shake on a particulat tripod with a particular lens will help; as will knowing that you need (say) a 1000mm f/2 lens to take a specific photograph that you might want to replicate.

My own starting point is different. My first port of call is why I want to photograph something. Answering that question tells me what it is that I want to record and then I start looking closely to find a viewpoint that emphasises the things I want emphasised and conceals the extraneous matter. That's the composition, which comes second in my sequence because composition (to me) is determined by intent. After that, it's a matter of deciding whether shutter speed or aperture takes priority, as I normally only have one speed of film with me. From which you'll gather that I'm photographing things outdoors that don't move. I have other "checklists" if I'm photographing sports or events, but in both cases other things get attended to before considering composition and settings.
 
TheBigYin said:
I could point you at lots of my own threads (I wouldn't victimise anyone else, it wouldn't be fair) where I post images, and alongside, there's a whole "blurb" of the thoughts behind it, perhaps hints to hidden messages, often the thread ends up going into details of how the set was built, the props were made or sourced, and even occasionally into a "pullback" showing the set and lighting rigging. I'd like to think that those threads gave more information to people wishing to get into that particular genre of work than a few numbers on the camera and lens did...
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Yup, the behind the scenes and pullbacks provide far more useful help than f/8, 1/250th, ISO 100 or whatever.

Couldn't tell you what settings were used on the shots I took when learning - no such thing as EXIF back then and there's no way I could use a note pad and pencil for every shot!
 
Awgydawg said:
.

For me it is helpful to know what equipment was used and what settings, lens type etc.
.
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Yes yes, you keep saying this, whilst not explaining how it is helpful.
Unless you're planning an identical image, it's no more useful than directions to a place you're not going.
 
viv1969 said:
Yes yes, you keep saying this, whilst not explaining how it is helpful.
Unless you're planning an identical image, it's no more useful than directions to a place you're not going.
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Birds for example (although the OP has not mentioned it) but I look for the info.
 
TLR-330 said:
Birds for example (although the OP has not mentioned it) but I look for the info.
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Except perhaps in his signature line ;)
 
Look, I am not going to be drawn into a very silly discussion on how useful EXIF data is when you are trying to improve your photography, it is obvious.

I am not the only one to think this. There are many sites that state, to improve your technique and skill, look at other people's EXIF data.

Quote from one such site:

"Flickr is, in general, a great resource for beginning photographers because it allows you to look at literally millions of different photographs and photography styles. One of the best ways we learn is by example, and what could be better than millions of different examples, both good and bad? But there's a bonus - each one of those images includes EXIF data (when available). Which means if you're wondering how the heck the photographer got such a cool shot, all that data is right there for your perusal. Examining this data for every shot that impresses you (and even some that don't) is going to give you a ton of insight into how different camera settings can affect the characteristics of a photograph."

http://www.digital-photo-secrets.com/tip/4079/exif-improve-your-shot/

So..... I am not alone in thinking this.

Perhaps you can write to authors on sites who have this opinion and start brow beating them into submission, for stating the obvious.
 
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Awgydawg said:
Look, I am not going to be drawn into a very silly discussion on how useful EXIF data is when you are trying to improve your photography, it is obvious.

I am not the only one to think this. There are many sites that state that, to improve your technique and skill, look at other people's EXIF data.

Quote from one such site:

"Flickr is, in general, a great resource for beginning photographers because it allows you to look at literally millions of different photographs and photography styles. One of the best ways we learn is by example, and what could be better than millions of different examples, both good and bad? But there's a bonus - each one of those images includes EXIF data (when available). Which means if you're wondering how the heck the photographer got such a cool shot, all that data is right there for your perusal. Examining this data for every shot that impresses you (and even some that don't) is going to give you a ton of insight into how different camera settings can affect the characteristics of a photograph."

http://www.digital-photo-secrets.com/tip/4079/exif-improve-your-shot/

So..... I am not alone in thinking this.

Perhaps you can write to authors on sites who have this opinion and start brow beating them into submission, for stating the obvious.
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The Flickr quote is only marketing blurb.
There's nothing 'obvious' here, otherwise even the most stupid of us would all be in agreement. :rolleyes:

In fact I've just read the 'digital photo secrets' link and it's frankly peurile.

I'll show you...
Here's an example: you go to your daughter's soccer game, and you take a ton of pictures. You're pretty sure some of them are going to be awesome, but when you get home you discover that most of your pictures are blurry, some of them are OK but none of them are really great. What went wrong? You check your EXIF data and discover that you shot most of the images at 1/60 or 1/100, which is apparently not fast enough to freeze the action during a soccer game. So the next time, you put your camera in shutter priority and you shoot everything at 1/500 or 1/1000. You sacrifice some depth of field, but you get pretty tack-sharp images.

Now, how did knowing the shutter speed lead to the conclusion?
It wouldn't on it's own, you'd need additional information - which you could read on the internet or get from asking someone else. And you could have done that before the game without the EXIF, you're going to have to do it anyway even with the exif. Can you now see what we're saying? See my photo's above - what does the EXIF information tell you? I could have changed settings and got nigh on identical results, or I could have kept the same settings and got completely different images.

So I've offered an actual point - more than 'it is obvious'
Or maybe the article you linked contains the information you needed to show why you and I have different opinions...
Right at the end (although they don't acknowledge that EXIF on it's own is clearly useless):
Growing beyond EXIF
EXIF is probably always going to be useful to you in one way or another, but eventually you'll develop an instinct for figuring out these things without referring to EXIF data. In the meantime, though, the EXIF data doesn't lie. You will always know exactly why your photos were blurry, underexposed or otherwise not right, because your EXIF data will tell you why.
 
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Awgydawg said:
Look, I am not going to be drawn into a very silly discussion on how useful EXIF data is when you are trying to improve your photography, it is obvious.

I am not the only one to think this. There are many sites that state, to improve your technique and skill, look at other people's EXIF data.

Quote from one such site:

"Flickr is, in general, a great resource for beginning photographers because it allows you to look at literally millions of different photographs and photography styles. One of the best ways we learn is by example, and what could be better than millions of different examples, both good and bad? But there's a bonus - each one of those images includes EXIF data (when available). Which means if you're wondering how the heck the photographer got such a cool shot, all that data is right there for your perusal. Examining this data for every shot that impresses you (and even some that don't) is going to give you a ton of insight into how different camera settings can affect the characteristics of a photograph."

http://www.digital-photo-secrets.com/tip/4079/exif-improve-your-shot/

So..... I am not alone in thinking this.

Perhaps you can write to authors on sites who have this opinion and start brow beating them into submission, for stating the obvious.
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Well I wondered how this post was going to be twisted and hey, it's Flickr marketing blurb, you have to laugh......

"Other people's EXIF

I mentioned earlier how checking the EXIF of your images can help you improve your photography. Well, checking the EXIF of other people's images can also help you improve.

When you see an image you particularly like (or maybe don't like!) then you can check the EXIF to see how the photo was shot. Now, this won't give you the full story on how a photograph was created. But it can still give you some helpful pointers.

You can see the information such as the focal length (or maybe the lens) used, the shutter and aperture settings. This can give you at least some idea of the settings to use to create a photo in a similar style."

http://www.discoverdigitalphotography.com/2014/what-is-exif-how-is-it-useful/

Want more?
 
Of which there are numerous threads on here "I'm going to shoot this - it's my first time, what are the best settings..." which usually ends up not with what are the best settings, as it depends on the light, the circumstances etc, but always pointers, such make sure your shutter speed is high enough.

Discussion ;) Always best :D
 
My perspective on this is positive, add information to help others where possible. That was my opening post. Some people on here have a negative perspective, keep EXIF information from learners and deem that information useless to the learning experience.

I think my positive perspective on publishing EXIF data is more helpful than condemning it as useless, a view that other professional photographers evidently don't share when it comes to teaching others. If the data is so useless, why is so much of it there in the first place, write to the manufacturers and tell them this data doesn't help anyone, perhaps they will remove it.
 
Awgydawg said:
Well I wondered how this post was going to be twisted and hey, it's Flickr marketing blurb, you have to laugh......

"Other people's EXIF

I mentioned earlier how checking the EXIF of your images can help you improve your photography. Well, checking the EXIF of other people's images can also help you improve.

When you see an image you particularly like (or maybe don't like!) then you can check the EXIF to see how the photo was shot. Now, this won't give you the full story on how a photograph was created. But it can still give you some helpful pointers.

You can see the information such as the focal length (or maybe the lens) used, the shutter and aperture settings. This can give you at least some idea of the settings to use to create a photo in a similar style."

http://www.discoverdigitalphotography.com/2014/what-is-exif-how-is-it-useful/

Want more?
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If you're responding to other peoples posts it helps to:
  • Quote their post
  • Acknowledge their post in your response.

I don't want to sound patronising - but I've tried reasoning and you just ignore it.

This is like you're on your 2nd driving lesson and you're trying to tell the guy in the pub who's been driving professionally for 30 years that he doesn't understand the basics of driving which are 'obvious' to you :thinking:

If you think studying EXIF will help; Knock y'self out, but don't believe you have a right to lecture the rest of the world that you've somehow discovered some holy grail they weren't aware of and that they're spoiling your learning by uploading using the wrong settings.
 
Awgydawg said:
My perspective on this is positive, add information to help others where possible. That was my opening post. Some people on here have a negative perspective, keep EXIF information from learners and deem that information useless to the learning experience.

I think my positive perspective on publishing EXIF data is more helpful than condemning it as useless, a view that other professional photographers evidently don't share when it comes to teaching others. If the data is so useless, why is so much of it there in the first place, write to the manufacturers and tell them this data doesn't help anyone, perhaps they will remove it.
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No one said EXIF is 'useless', for instance I used it just this morning when I had to find 2 images with matching EXIF to show in this thread ;)

Please bear with us and understand that some of us offer a great deal of help, you just happen to have introduced yourself by telling us we we're all wrong before you even heard what we had to say :(
 
Thanks for your comments Phil, you take some great photos bye the way.

This is just my opinion, EXIF really does help me and others it seems. I think you are so advanced, by the quality of your photos, that you may have forgotten how difficult it is, when starting out, after many years in my case. All data is useful to me.
 
Phil V said:
If you think studying EXIF will help; Knock y'self out, but don't believe you have a right to lecture the rest of the world that you've somehow discovered some holy grail they weren't aware of and that they're spoiling your learning by uploading using the wrong settings.
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None of my post are lecturing or telling people to publish EXIF data. My words are "should be encouraged". This is not lecturing.
 
Awgydawg, you should really be a bit more precise as to that is the help you believe you would get. Maybe give examples. Keeping the discussion as is you will get the argument that Exif data are, are not, useful. To be fully honest they would be certainly useful to a burglar if they also had your address and you had some expensive kit.
 
I like exif data, not sure why, just to be nosey at what kit people have more than anything I think. :D

I don't see it as relevant tbh as I could shoot the same scene 7 days of the week and get 7 different results. I don't spend 3 hours working out the perfect exposure triangle, I use aperture priority, select the aperture I think is best and take the shot. If it works then great, if not then I'll dial in +/- exposure compensation and try again.

Then if that fails just make it completely unrecognizable in PP :D

What I do do is set my alarm at stupid o' clock to go out somewhere for sunrise rather than worry about what settings Tom, Dick or Harry used when they took a similar shot 4 years ago.
 
TLR-330 said:
Awgydawg, you should really be a bit more precise as to that is the help you believe you would get. Maybe give examples. Keeping the discussion as is you will get the argument that Exif data are, are not, useful. To be fully honest they would be certainly useful to a burglar if they also had your address and you had some expensive kit.
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Aha, I found some spectacles that work, I may use them the next time I choose an avatar...... I was precise. People were stating that EXIF was useless for learning about photography and wanted me to argue the point. I just don't see the point in arguing about the obvious, so I linked to a couple (of many) sites that state that inspecting other people's EXIF data does help when learning. I did this rather than waste my time.


None of my posts tell anyone to do anything, they do not lecture, a forum should be for all. This was my opinion, and I was, I think, entitled to state it.
 
Graham W said:
How does it help you and how is it useful. I'd genuinely like to know.
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Already been there and done this, see the links to other sites, they will explain it.
 
Awgydawg said:
Look, I am not going to be drawn into a very silly discussion on how useful EXIF data is when you are trying to improve your photography, it is obvious.
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I'm sorry, I must be very thick because it ISN'T obvious to me. I can, on the other hand, think of several reasons why it would be detrimental to development as a photographer to have access to it. So..

Awgydawg said:
I have taught many things, I am born teacher, so I am open and want to share my knowledge so that others can improve.
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would you like to use your abilities as a born teacher, and your desire to share your knowledge to help me improve by understanding exactly what it is that makes exif data useful, since I can't see it.
 
Awgydawg said:
Already been there and done this, see the links to other sites, they will explain it.
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I may be missing the obvious (again!) but on my reading they assert the usefulness, they don't explain it. An assertion isn't a proof, not matter what politicians say.
 
StephenM said:
I'm sorry, I must be very thick because it ISN'T obvious to me. I can, on the other hand, think of several reasons why it would be detrimental to development as a photographer to have access to it. So..



would you like to use your abilities as a born teacher, and your desire to share your knowledge to help me improve by understanding exactly what it is that makes exif data useful, since I can't see it.
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Do a Google search or look at the links I have published, I will not be drawn.
 
Awgydawg said:
Thanks for your comments Phil, you take some great photos bye the way.

This is just my opinion, EXIF really does help me and others it seems. I think you are so advanced, by the quality of your photos, that you may have forgotten how difficult it is, when starting out, after many years in my case. All data is useful to me.
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Thanks, they're really not :)
There was no EXIF when I started - there were a few books, and magazines were crap. I went to night school, and when I got serious I paid for professional training.

The biggest difference brought by the digital revolution? This is. Forums where people can come and ask questions, learn from people who learned from their own mistakes, learn from the masters.

Nowadays, it's possible to learn in a matter of weeks, what took me years, I've helped people who've built and sold on businesses in the time it took me to learn how to 'see' an image.

And that's the crux, honestly the single most important thing you need is to learn how to 'see' what's in front of you, and to 'see' what's in your viewfinder.
 
Awgydawg said:
People were stating that EXIF was useless for learning about photography and wanted me to argue the point. I just don't see the point in arguing about the obvious, so I linked to a couple (of many) sites that state that inspecting other people's EXIF data does help when learning. I did this rather than waste my time.
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But people want to know why you think exif data helps when learning. After all, you started this thread! :LOL:
 
Ed Sutton said:
But people want to know why you think exif data helps when learning. After all, you started this thread! :LOL:
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Circles comes to mind. Bye folks.
 
Awgydawg said:
Do a Google search or look at the links I have published, I will not be drawn.
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Frankly, I've better things to do than Google to find links to "prove" a position that I can see arguments against and none in favour. If you're not going to use your teaching skills (and are adamant that in spite of being "open and want to share my knowledge so that others can improve" you don't want to be open and share this knowledge) then I'm out.
 
Awgydawg said:
Already been there and done this, see the links to other sites, they will explain it.
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No. I meant you, linking to another site isn't going to help anyone understand what you hope to learn from exif data. Until we know that we're going to go around in circles.

Edit. Oh, I see he's already gone. What a strange person!
 
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